Hey, do you bring in Rest in Peace against BG/x Decks with deathrite and tarmogoyf i.e. Shardless, Jund, etc. If so, do you side out the snapcasters in this situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
Do you do the same with RUG delver?
Thanks
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Hey, do you bring in Rest in Peace against BG/x Decks with deathrite and tarmogoyf i.e. Shardless, Jund, etc. If so, do you side out the snapcasters in this situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
Do you do the same with RUG delver?
Thanks
Yup, these are my boarding plans against the three decks. I change it up sometimes depending on specific cards I'm afraid of, like Choke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherick
Shardless:
-3 Force of Will
-1 Counterspell
-2 Spell Pierce
-2 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Rest in Peace
+1 Misdirection
+1 Terminus
+1 Entreat the Angels
+1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Jund:
-3 Force of Will
-1 Counterspell
-2 Spell Pierce
-2 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Engineered Explosives
+3 Rest in Peace
+1 Terminus
+1 Entreat the Angels
+1 Misdirection
+2 Wear//Tear
+1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Against Jund, I will often keep the Explosives and board out a Counterbalance instead. In both these matchups, Entreat the Angels is key. Entreating for 4 tokens or more, especially in response to their attack, is usually gg.
RUG Delver:
-3 Force of Will
-1 Misdirection
-1 Counterspell
-1 Venser, Shaper Savant
-2 Snapcaster Mage
+3 Rest in Peace
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Terminus
+1 Entreat the Angels
The RUG delver match up has honestly been really easy though. Certainly much less scary than Jund and Shardless.
Hope that helps!
22 lands including Ruins is greedy, not impossible. I wouldn't do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
In most likely cases, even if you activate shackle, you are probably holding an opponent's creature as a blocker. If your opponent top-deck an Abrupt Decay, he might just kill you on that turn.
So far, only oarsman has proven that 4 CB is fine in legend-angel list. Your list is probably ok if you live in Europe. Since you're using Snapcasters not RiP, you might as well replace CB with Ponder, like other the European lists.
If you board in Miracles for the whole range from Tempo to Midrange and likely control matchups (more Entreats), why don't you run more of them anyways in the Mainboard to adress these common matchups and adress combo via the SB?Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
Pretty much the same issue I see here with your boarding of RIP for the Snapcasters. You could pretty much MD the RIP's with that boarding habits and have a better G1 against ANT and Reanimator as well
You do bring up a good point. But allow me to defend my choice for a bit. It is true that Terminus/Entreat comes in against almost any deck with creatures, from Jund to Goblins to Death and Taxes. There's a couple reasons that I don't simply play 4 main yet board it in a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
1. First of all, there are matchups where it is almost completely dead (ANT, TES, Sneak Show, OmniTell, Burn). Playing 3 means I rarely see more than 1, which is usually easy enough to Brainstorm/Clique/Jace away. Playing 4 means I see 2 far too often, and it's stuck in my hand. I only want that many Terminus when I know it isn't going to be a dead card. RIP has the same issue of being a dead card in an even greater amount of matchups.
2. In game one, I want to have a shot at beating anything. This is why I have a wide range of counter magic in the main and yet in a lot of matchups it all comes out. While it's lackluster against a fair amount of the meta (Midrange, aggro, etc), you NEED to have them there for the unfair decks, namely combo. In other matchups it is a catch-all: it can still counter an opposing Jace or a Batterskull or even a creature if need be. Post board, we can specialize our deck to deal specifically with the threat at hand. Terminus is better at dealing with creatures than counter magic. REB is better at dealing with Jace, Wear // Tear is better at dealing with artifact and enchantments, etc.. Even in a matchup like Tempo (which is good anyway), Terminus does a lot more for us than a Force of Will (due to card disadvantage), despite not being great. This is also why I have Snapcasters main. They are a good catch all-recurring Swords against aggro and countermagic against control and combo. Of course in matchups where I need RIP more (anything with Deathrite, Goyf, Bridge from Below, or reanimation), Snapcaster comes out because there is now more specialized hate.
3. With tight play, 3 Terminus, 4 Swords, 2 Entreat, plus my creature suite is enough removal to get me through the aggro, tempo, and midrange matchups. Post-board, we simply add cards to make the matchup more generous.
Truth be told, Terminus only comes in for about half my matchups. I think that the 3-1 sideboard split is certainly justified. Has your playtesting told you otherwise?
I admit, I could probably design my MD - SB interaction better so that everything slots in perfectly, but I haven't played Miracles that extensively in each matchup to figure out the perfect build. I actually struggled a lot with the build since I realized I was boarding out Force in so many matchups. It actually makes me curious if it's better to just cut way down on the countermagic in the main and then board in all of it in in the combo matchups. Definitely could be interesting. The thing with that is, it probably guarantees our loss against combo game 1 (forcing you to win both games 2 and 3-which can be ruined by a run of bad luck), while not necessarily guaranteeing our win against Jund/BUG (two more difficult matchups imo). The way I have it set up, I have a fair shot at beating both game 1, giving me a bit more leeway games 2 and 3.
I think that this is a pretty good approach actually. While I wouldn't cut FoW entirely from the MD, I think that combo has a distinct advantage game one anyways in that you probably don't yet know they are combo. Unless you know what they are playing beforehand, having anti-combo cards in hand game one is very incidental. Since you will rarely get many turns to dig through your deck to find anti-combo cards, if your FoWs weren't accidentally in your opening hand then you will likely lose the game with four FoWs floating around in your library. The different with cards like Counterbalance (and RIP) being that while good against a lot of combo decks, they are also great against a wide variety of non-combo decks and will help you make a plan when thinking about mulligans.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
No worries, I usually don't post deck lists because I think they clutter things up. If anyone ever wants my deck list, they can always just message me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka1333
Like others have said, I probably wouldn't run a colorless land in this deck. A ton hinges on :u::u:, and even a couple (like Elspeth and Entreat) on :w::w:. When facing Wasteland/Stifle decks, drawing a colorless land could mean the difference between a win and a loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
I chopped down my MB countermagic to FoW and Counterbalance with Flusterstorm, Meddling Mages, RIP and Runed Halo coming in from the side for parts the anti-creature-package and some Jaces. Cliques and Venser are still solid.
Proved more successful to focus on the Tempo-/midrange-matchups and tackle combo with the SB.
I would actually keep 3 Fow versus Canadian Thresh. For example;
You lost game1 and are on the play:
Play fech, fetch island, pass.
He goes land, nimble mongoose.
You fow and pitch jace.
Now he can either fow back (parity, which favors you beeing the slower deck) or let fow resolve. It's not totally unresonable that he will be out of creatures and has to dig for another. Overall you buy 2-3 turns which let you play actual magic . This leads to my next point; Side out most counterspells and get better topdecks. Counters like Counterspell, spell pierce and flusterstorm are not good in this matchup because you will often be behind on board. With the exception of sulfuric vortex you don't really care about anything that is not a creature. I rather have a high density of answers to the board than having counterspells to protect my answers from getting countered. If you flusterstorm a fow to get RiP through, then grats. what if you only have 2 lands with rip and flusterstorm in hand? what if you just have the flusterstorm? what if you have 3 mana, rest in peace and nothing more? Maybe your next draw is that flusterstorm, should you wait? Fow is bad because it's card disadvantage and easily stopped by REB. It does have the upside of beeing able to counter anything at any time though. It's great where a counterspell is _needed_ and that is to stop an early threat or to force a miracle through. Because Fow has "built in protection from Daze" compared to i.e spell pierce the card-disadvantage might actually be better. If you have cards in hand when you loose to Canadian Thresh then maybe you can keep some fow's in next time?
This is what I sideboard versus RUG;
-2 predict -2 counterspell -2 spell snare -1 jace -1 fow
+1 entreat +4 reb (I run a mountain) +2 rip +1 engineered explosives. Reb is first of all an answer to delver but can also just trade for a brainstorm.
I have tried blood moon but I think it adds to much inconsistency. Sometimes you are to much behind for it to make a difference.
When I instead of tempo face a lot of discard i still want to maximize my topdecks but I no longer care about tempo. Sideboarding versus shardless for example;
-2 spell snare -4 stp -4 fow -2 counterspell
+4 blasts +1 ee +1 entreat +2 rip +1 venser +1 clique +1 needle +1 blood moon. Here blasts are unconditional jace-removal and also stops creeping tar pit, notion thief, force of will and ancestral visions. Sometimes it's even worth killing an agent to protect jace.
I mentioned this in an earlier post but got nothing in response. Is everyone happy with Misdirection as a way to fight shardless? I can really see the upside of doing that to abrupt decay, hymn and ancestral vision... but do we really need this loopsided card to win?
Jund is less driven by CA than Shardless so I keep my plows over the blasts (but otherwise sideboard the same as I do versus shardless). If they have choke I would consider keeping a few counters.
It might be correct to keep in Force against RUG, but it is almost certainly incorrect to Force a turn 1 Nimble Mongoose, especially when you don't know what else they have in hand. Mongoose will remain a 1/1 until turn 3-4 at the earliest. We end up taking 2-3 damage, but we have that time to dig for Explosives, Rest in Peace, Entreat, or Terminus. Force would only be for dangerous cards like Sulfuric Vortex or maybe a large Goyf when we're in a pinch. I will probably try keeping in two Forces in place of a Swords and a Terminus and see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
I think the argument can certainly be made to board in REB. I like that it stops countermagic when you really need something to resolve and hitting Delver on the side is nice. The problem I have with it is that I would need to fetch Volcanics, which can be wasted. Since you are running a basic Mountain it's probably a better choice for you, but I think I will stick with Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm.
I agree with your SB plan vs Shardless (although I'd probably still keep some Swords). I'm still unsure if I want to keep Misdirection or not. Usually snagging one Hymn, Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, or Visions puts me far enough ahead to get there. I can't remember when I wished it were a Force.
I totally agree with this. I think having some FoW isn't bad against tempo, but I don't think I'd ever use it to counter their threats, especially early in the game. I would use FoW almost exclusively to stop their Stifles on lands and Stifles or other counter magic on key spells like Terminus or Counterbalance. REB is great because it can shoot Delvers (their only real threat post-RIP) as well as help you resolve your spells. I also like Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce a whole lot against tempo. Flusterstorm is especially Daze-proof. Our spells are more powerful than theirs. Use your counter magic to resolve your powerful spells, not counter their dudes that our removal covers already.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
Take the following scenario:Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
* G1, turn1, on the draw
* opponent turns out to be on RUG and drops a T1 Mongoose.
* Your hand: 2 Island, 1 Tundra, 1 STP, 1 FOW, 1 Jace, 1 Counterbalance
This is why I'd FOW the Mongoose (obv. pitching Jace):
* our only 3-4 outs are Terminus and possibly a miser S. Verdict
* I don't count EtA here, since it's not only vulnerable to Stifle but also Pierce, making it an unreliable solution, plus it's an endgame spell, and thus irrelevant at that point.
* finding those 3-4 outs w/o cantrips / Top might take a while
* also our white source is wastable = not reliable
* successfully FOW'ing Goose might buy enough time to reach 4+ land drops rather unharmed
The given scenario could evolve like so:
* they FOW back (a feasible move imo) --> fair trade
* they Daze our FOW: that's kinda uncool, but at least costs them significant tempo (Dazing on turn one hurts their tempo considerably more than later on)
* FOW resolves --> great: We've just gotten rid of their meanest menace, bought some time plus get the info that they're not holding Daze.
* T2 they drop nothing and keep up their mana for Stifle --> great, we've just bought ourselves another essential turn
* and yep: I'd definitely FOW that Goose even if I didn't hold STP (making us more vulnerable to a T2 Goyf), since I prefer facing down a 3/4 goyf on turn 2-3 over a Nimble Menace on turn 1
The scenario above has many variations, of which I just considered a very small amount. The basic idea beyond my approach, and I think many of you would agree: buying time is the sole aim during the early game against fast aggro. I'm aware countering that Mongoose is not scientifically proven the correct move, but I've experienced too many games in which I took a couple of pings from one and eventually 1-2 hits by a thresh'd one and then mercilessly got burned to death.
Allowing RUG or any other opponent with a certain counter suite to resolve a hexproof guy puts them in the driver seat. All they have to do is protecting their threat against 3-4 outs, instead of finding and resolving another one.
As we were talking about the post-board matchup, you actually have Terminus, Explosives, and Rest in Peace. Brainstorm, Top, and Ponder can also help you dig. In my deck post-board, that's 18 cards that can potentially dig us out. We will probably see 3 more cards (not including the extra ones from Top/Bstorm) before the Mongoose gets threshed. I'd bet my chances on that and save myself the card disadvantage. Plus, if they drop a Goyf, Delver, or a second Mongoose next turn I would certainly rather have waited for Terminus, Explosives, and Rest in Peace. I'm sure in the preboard matchup, there are fringe cases where Forcing the Mongoose is correct but in general it is a play I would really not want to make unless I have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Part of what I learned playing Miracles is that you have to play it like a control deck. We cannot think about the deck in terms of immediate plays, but rather a long-term goal. Our plays must help us get to a position where we can win. To get the most out of our plays, we usually want to wait until the last possible moment to make it, so we have the most information and can make the most correct play. I will gladly trade the 2-3 life (sometimes I'll take even bigger hits) just to get more information before making a play. There is no need to be proactive, especially that early in the game, since we have no idea what the opponent's next move is. If I throw away a Force and a Jace to save myself 3 points of life and lose out on potential future card advantage, I'm playing a losing game.
Thanks for the shoutout, yep it was my: Here is that post you were talking about: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post745168Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac
At the moment my manabase for Miracles (which I'll be bringing to Ovino8 this weekend) is the following:
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Yes I know 4 Tundra is not what everybody else is playing but I got a few reasons behind it:
Playing around Wasteland: Many will claim that 4 Tundra will suck against Wastelands. Well it does not. Why, you may ask? Well, let's take this on a more general approach. How to play around it? First there is the way everybody knows, Island, Island, Plains, Fetchland - this'll work negating the Wastelands. But what if I start with Tundra against Unknown? Will I fetch for Island next turn, if my third land in hand is Volcanic/Karakas/Tundra? Nah, I'll be probably just getting the next Tundra, and with the next Fetchland, the 3rd one, after one or two of them being Wastelanded I'll grab another one. Our Fetchland-Configuration is not 9 Flooded Strand, according to this flaw I prefer playing a bunchload of Tundren :D
Greetings
Have you tried a 1-of Mystic Gate or Glacial Fortress? Choke is a real card, and Mystic Gate especially allows us to generate UU with just another Plains under Choke (or when we can't find other blue mana). Has proven to be very useful. Either way, I love the Miracles mana base. 6 basics and zero colorless sources makes us incredibly stable and resilient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I tried both of them, and yeah sure both a strictly better than a Tundra as the game progresses. But I don't need any extra power for the lategame, I need immediate power in the earlygame, where the first interactions take place. Both of them are incedribly bad as 1st land. You can't Pierce and you can't Brainstorm in T1-3, which is necessary against certain decktypes - aka Storm, End of T1 Brainstorm into Balance with a manacost of choice on Top is viable.
I have played a lot of games, both on Cockatrice and irl, local tournaments, Grand Prixs, Ovino7 and hundreds of Cockatrice battles and I died to Choke once in real life and about 10 times on Cockatrice. This is a fair percentage for a hatecard. I wouldn't wanna add a worse Tundra just for the sake of beating a Choke somewhen in the following two years to come... If the meta would warrant it, I'd def. play Mystic Gate but right now I don't see the reason for doing so. Against most Choke-Decks I still have 2 Counterspell alongside the Counterbalances. Sometimes I keep in Pierces and sometimes I bring in Wear//Tear - not like I am plain dead to this (rarely seen) card.
Greetings
The problem with this is that miracles do not want to miss landdrops. I like the overload on duals-approach in decks with a proactive gameplan. I advocated this for esper-stoneblade together with 3-4 wastelands a while back. If you get wastelanded having mystic/bob/delver/whatever at 1-2 mana you don't reallty care. If you miss a landdrop where your goal is jace, entreat and terminus (even at 6 mana) those cards drops ALOT as realistic plays for every land wasted. Sure, you won't get color-screwed (as you explained above) as you will not run out of white/blue sources so easily, even with just blue fetchlands but you have to consider the cost of durdling with top and resolving jace (preferably w/o range of spell pierce). As weird as it may sound I actually prefer the minimum amount of duals and max out on basics and fetches (where 9 or 10 is my "max" for not taking to much damage). As long as you don't run to low on sources for your cards this will get you a more solid manabase versus wasteland (and when you don't face wasteland you can still go easy-mode and fetch duals).Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
To put this approach in your example above, if you run 4 tundras the risk of having them in hand while having a fetchland in play is twice as high if you run 4 compared to 2 as I have. You will therefor not be "forced" to fetch a tundra as you "allready have another wasteland-target coming".
My manabase for reference;
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
2 plains
5 island
1 mountain
1 karakas
2 volcanic island
2 tundra
18 sources for blue. 12 sources for island.
14 sources for white. 8 sources for plains
12 sources for red. 6 sources for mountain.
compared to your manabase it's +1 mountain +1 island -2 tundra.
This has served me quite well. WW can be hard sometimes but as long as you find one basic plains you can allways fetch that tundra for the one-shot with entreat.
If I want to up my count for white sources I would add mystic gate or replace an island/volcanic island for it.
edit: Also, well written Klaus.
There's also a subtle benefit from FOW-ing creatures rather than saving it to push removal through (which is basicly the same, except it takes more mana and you take more damage) and that is information. If I fow my opponent's turn 1 play (dodging daze) and he fow back I have less things to worry about from his hand, the card he pitches also tells me a lot about the rest of his cards. As long as you are 100% reactive and your opponent has no threath in play his cards gets worse and yours get better. He might even be "forced" to play more lands. Saving FOW to be able to kill two creatures is just win-more-thinking. Playing spell pierce and flusterstorm of your own does not fit in your gameplan, rather your opponent's. You basicly only fuel your opponents (otherwise dead) soft-counters! Pierce nagging a Ponder is certainly better than a lot of things but it's not Ponder that kills you and by playing Spell pierce you only make your topdecks worse.
I was strictly referring to a preboard game. And yes: of course, we have cantrips, but in the hand I investigated, we didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
As for Goyf and Delver: we're still holding STP as an immediate answer. // EE is not a core card, which is why I ignored its existence for analytical reasons, and RiP again does not apply for G1s, unless you're going with a RiP Helm version, which I personally think is terrible in general, unless your meta consists of an extremely high amount of gy based strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
Just to be clear: I wasn't promoting FOWing T1 Geese as a general approach, instead I presented a scenario that made this move feasible. What fringe cases come to your mind beyond that?Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
That's exactly the reasoning behind my approach to the given case. I even took it further and boiled it down to the #1 objective of surviving the early midgame as unharmed as possible against tempo decks featuring burn spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
Jace is the first card I'll gladly pitch to FOW against Aggro archetypes boasting Daze/Pierce, since he's simply irrelevant during the first 6 turns (aka. the early game) - and that's exactly when the winners of most of such games are decided.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
The only time I could see myself casting a Jace on turn 4-6 is when I'm facing a desperate board state and am forced to bounce a Delver or Goyf just to have Jace eat some dmg and die to survive another 1-3 turns and eventually find a sweeper.
That's a bold understatement: Geese will cost you an estimated average of 7-10 life if resolved on turn 1, with a cantripless hand such as the one above. And let me tell you I have seen a turn 1 Goose go all the way more than once. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
I understand your reasoning and I think both approaches are viable, though I see on little flaw in your argument.
You claim that your manabase is better against Wasteland in the lategame, which I think is wrong. You play 1 more real Basic Land. Basic Mountain is a whole different story. Let's just say 2 more nonwastelandable sources. Meaning you won't get Wastelanded early on but in the Midgame when you have to play Tundren. Well, I think we are both overexegerating the importance of 2 land slots at a whole. Both versions can easily play Basic Lands up to T4. Mine can do this, yours too. Both will be wastelanded after that simply because we play wastelandable sources. The main thing I see here is if you can't run out enough Basiclands soon 4 Tundra is superior, but I see your way of working around this, by simply playing more basic lands. Wasteland will get us, this or the other way, but based on testing I did last week (though it wasn't concentrated on the manabase) I got manascrewed against RUG 2 out of 16 times. One more time RUG was able to colorscrew me - making 3/16 which is fine by me. Anyways, a small one sided sample is no proof that my version is better.
My conclusion would be the following:
Wasteland does affect our deck, even though not as much as it does affect others, but we cannot play around it completely. You can either try to overload on Duals or to play more Basics. Both will grant you a way to play "around/with" opposing Wastelands. Either way it will slow you down sooner or later. It ofc is better to get slowed down by it as late as possible but being able to drop an U/W land after another turn after turn has some merit too, in the early game.
Are you fine with that or should we discuss this topic in a real way, I am fine with taking this topic serious and writing a lot more than I did if you feel like I am wrong.
Greetings
That's basically what I ended up with too. I strongly recommend -1 Delta +1 Arid Mesa though: getting that second basic Plains is key to setting up a safe EtA against mana denial strategies imo. Also, we're likely to fetch a basic Island with the Strands from our opening hands, making sure to have a safe mana source to cast our early cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I also prefer to go with 1 Delta, 1 Rainforest, 1 Tarn - one day some Sinkhole.dec opponent might just opt to Extirpate your Deltas - I know super fringy case, but there's no downside to splitting up those U fetches.
Basically exactly my approach. It's not a clear dogma though - of course you need more info to determine whether fetching a Tundra over a basic Island is the correct call*, but yes: more often than not I see myself going for another Tundra against Wasteland.dec, since being cut off white completely can hurt much more than being sure to keep an unwasteable blue mana source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
-
* cases that ask for this approach: holding multiple STPs or intending to set up an EtA / Moat / Elspeth / Supreme Verdict
Here's my mana base for reference:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Currently playing:
3 Plains
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Glacial Fortress
Though I can see the argument for an additional Volc here. I play the RiP/Helm build, with a Blood Moon and Engi in the Main deck. I have currently only been screwed when against Wastes when I was desperately trying to land a Blood Moon against a Maverick opponent and couldn't afford to find my single Volc. Other times I have been fine. (I played 4 Tundras at the time.) I think this mana-base is perfect for us, and I use an almost identical one in my Bant variant, replacing all Red with Green, though I am hoping to throw in Punishing Fire's and Groves at some point.
If your meta is full of greedy manabases, warranting a MD Moon, I could see this working. However the surprise effect probably decreases after your second tourney boasting that tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
I would still miss those 3-4 fetches you dropped, since being able to shuffle every now and then is just golden for a deck with BS, Jace and Top.
7 tundra?
Deriving from the fact that he plays 0 Flooded Strand I think this should mean:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
Greetings
Blerg; this. So that's 9 fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Blood Moon works against everyone. Nobody plays Wastes on Miracles, so no-one plays around that kind of thing. If you do, then I just don't make Blood Moon. It's THAT simple. Certain decks can't play around it, like 3-colour tempo, and the more midrange decks like Shardless.
I was simply saying that we can draw into cantrips which can then draw us into removal, even if we don't have any in our opening hand. I admit that your hand is definitely a case where Force-ing a turn 1 mongoose is a possibility but if I have any sort of removal (non-STP) or cantrip, you can bet I'm keep my Force.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
If they mulled to 6 or 5, I'd be more likely to Force, since it is less likely they will Force back or even have a backup threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
We do need to survive the midgame, but being unharmed can mean different things. One way is in terms of our life total. The other way is in terms of how strong our hand is compared to theirs. If I'm at 20 life in the mid game but I'm in top deck mode while staring down a Goyf, that is probably a worse situation than if I have a hand of 3 cards and at 12 life.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
I agree, Jace is the card I'd pitch here. Just so we're clear, I'm not saying that in your situation your play is incorrect. I am just saying in general, given no other information, Forcing a turn 1 Mongoose is probably not the best play.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Yeah, sure. Sometimes Delver does what Delver does and we get rolled. But in the long run, I've found that take 2-3 hits or even 4 hits is acceptable and I can find removal in time. And if know I will find my RIP, Terminus, or Explosives in that time, then Forcing would have been the incorrect play. Anyway, let's drop this. I will concede that the specific situation you brought up there is definitely an argument for Forcing the Mongoose but it is not the correct general strategy of Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
EDIT: On the whole mana base issue, I thought I might chip in mine. I'm running this 22:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
Sometimes I find that 3 Tundra is too much but there's also times where I find that 2 leaves me unable to fetch one at times. I still think that 3 is correct, supported by the miser Mystic Gate. I would never go less than 6 basics though. I really want to run the second Karakas but I don't want to cut another non-land card.
Given this scenario, I would rather hold my FoW almost every time. Not knowing what my draws would be, I'd plan to do something like Island go, Island go, Tundra -> Daze-proof Counterbalance with FoW backup. By this point you've likely drawn some more spicy cards, possibly even a Top or Brainstorm. Over the course of these three turns, you've taken a whopping 2 damage (3 if you count using the FoW to protect your CB). This sounds a whole lot better to me than FoWing their Goose on zero information and hoping that they don't have the Daze (which not only keeps them the Goose, but helps it Threshold faster).Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
What do you guys think about a second Karakas and a Celestial Colonnade MD ?
The number of cards with a casting cost of 2 is very low in nearly all versions i have seen ( < 10 ). Don't you think it's a issue when you are heavily relying in Counterbalance (playing 3 or 4) not to be able to counter reliably at 2 ?
Is Ponder a necessity for you or not ?
Thank you.
The 2cc slot is a problem because the Terminus, Jaces, Entreats, Venser and Cliques push into the higher cmc's. However, since the days of Tarmogoyf-staredowns behind a Counterbalance the 2cc slot became suprisingly less relevant as the more important flipped cost are 1 (cantrips, discard, rituals), 3 (Clique, Show & Tell, Choke, KotR) and 4 (Jace, NO, Elspeth) and pretty much the worst/best 2-Drops in the format are Counterbalance, Hymn, Goofy, Bob, SFM, SCM, Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka1333
For those you still have hardcounters or removal that get the Job done. It's not that creatures are that backbreaking to this deck anyways and as long as you can deny storm's mana, everythings fine.
Cel.Col isn't an option imo. It's slow, fragile, mana-intense and a horrible turn 1 play. A second Karakas however proofed it's usefullness against Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Elves (Ruric Thar) and the pesty Gardock Teeg/Thalia.
Colonnade was bad. I may be tempted by it in a non-RiP build where I can use Wasteland and Cruicible, but until then I think it's just too slow. At the point it's good, it's better as a 'Walker.
I always like Karakas, though.
So far I've had good experiences with Colonnade. I've only run into it twice, but in those times I 1.) Won the game on it's back, and 2.) Killed Elspeth to solidify my win instead of getting punched in the face two more times via a flying 4/4 Soldier to lose the game. I'm sure that as time goes on, it will not always allow for such game-turning plays, but for a one-of, I'd say its waaaay more solid than Glacial Fortress...
Here is my current mana base:
4 Strand
3 Tarn
2 Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Karakas
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
A little greedy, not too bad though so far in testing. It's not greedy if I don't play greedy. If I play greedy, I occasionally get uber-wrecked by wasteland. A few people won't appreciate the basic Mountain, only 3 Island, and the Seat of the Synod along with the Colonnade, and I can see where they are coming from, but I'm fairly pleased with it. The mountain may become a 4th Island, but for now it needs more testing for my own peace of mind.
-ABC
Hi everybody, my local metagame is moving to more and more tribals, BUG, and Deathblade, so i'm actually testing a blade version, Batterskull is awesome in all of this matchups!
the decklist is almost netdecked from a really strong italian player and is the following:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Spell Pierce
1 Batterskull
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear_Tear
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
I have no simil- Glacial fortress lands because IMHO they limit the number of basics u could play, and playing Blood Moon in SB is better than have two lands that untap under Choke, i'm not too sold on the Arid Mesa, (9th fetch) because i have 11 shuffle effects with it and they migth be too much, if that wuold be replaced it would leave the MD for a Plains
I'm still testing the blood moons in SB, they are there to "easy win" some matches like Deathblade, Jund, Shardless BUG... does anyone has any experience with them?
and these are all my sb plans, i'm not really sure on them, any suggestions?
AnT 9
In 1 FoW 2 Flusterstorm 1 Reb 1 E.E. 1 Pyro 2 Relic, 1 Sulfur
Out 2 Eta 3 Terminus 3 Plow 1 Jace
Burn 4
In 1 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Wear/Tear,
Out 1 Jace, 2 Terminus, 1 Eta
Canadian Threshold 7
In 1 Terminus, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Engineered explosives, 2 Relic of Progenitus 1 Sulfur
Out 2 Jace TmS, 3 FoW, 2 Vendilion
Death and Taxes 5
In 1 Wear/Tear, 1 EE, 1 Sulfur Elemental, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Terminus
Out 2 Vendilion Clique, 3 Spell Pierce,
Deathblade (Italian lists with Geists maindeck, no Confidants and 2 FoW MD) 7/6
In 3 pyro/Reb, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Blood Moon
Out 3 FoW, 3 pierce,
Elves 7
In 1 FoW, 1 Terminus, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 E.E., 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Flusterstorm
Out 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 1 Vendilion Clique, 3 Spell pierce
Goblins 6
In 1 Terminus, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Wear/Tear, 1 FoW, 1 E.E, 1 Sulfur
Out 3 Pierce, 3 CB
Jund 8
In 1 Wear/Tear, 1 E.E., 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Terminus, 2 Blood Moon, 2 Relic of Progenitus
Out 3 CB, 2 SfM, 1 Bskull, 2 Vendilion
Maverick 8
In 1 Wear/Tear, 1 E.E., 2 Relic, 1 Sulfur, 2 Blood Moon, 1 Pyroclasm/1 Terminus
Out 2 SfM, 1 BSkull, 3 Pierce, 2 Vendilion Clique
Merfolks 6
In 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Terminus, 1 E.E., 1Wear/Tear
Out 1 Jace, 3 Pierce, 2 Vendilion
Miracles 8
In 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Reb, 1 E.E., 1 Sulfur Elemental
Out 2 SFM, 1 Bskull, 3 Terminus, 2 Plow
OmniTell 8
In 1 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1Wear/Tear, 2 pyroblast, 1 ReB, 1 Sulfur elemental
Out 4 Plow, 3 Terminus, 1 Entreat the Angels
Patriot tempo. 7
In 2reb, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Terminus 1 Wear/Tear, 1 Pyroclasm
Out 2 Jace, Tms, 3 pierce, 2 vendilion
Shardless BUG 6
In 2 Blood Moon, 3 Pyro, 1Terminus
Out 3 FoW, 3 CB
Sneak & Show 8
In 1 Sulfur Elemental, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Force of Will, 1 Wear/Tear
Out 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Entreat the Angels 1 E.E, 1 Terminus
all these plans are really sketchy, if any of you see something on what give me some indications it wuold be great!
@Gros - Just a couple of observations:
Sulfuric Elemental: Did you find it good? It kills MoMs, thalia and the like, but also pumps mirrodin crusader, stoneforge and serra avenger. Wouldn't a Pyroclasm be better in its place?
Vs Canadian I would side in 2 Blood Moons, since if they haven't a creature in play and it resolves you have win.
@kingtk3 the real power of sulfur elemental is that is so versatile! D&T is the classic matchup in which you side it in, but is very good vs. Thresh (it kills mongeeses), Mirror (can kill opposing Jaces in greedy mode), Maverick, is a clock vs. all the combo decks that doesn't require to you to tap at sorcery speed, almost shuts down Elspeth... it basically does almost always what you wanted it to do:) ok it can pump serra avenger and mirran crusader, but it shuts off on its own Mangara Thalia Mom, in the worst scenario it can chump Mirran after doing 2x0... it seems a good deal to me! pyroclasm is also good, but if oppo has mom mystic you look at your pyroclasm and basically cry :), same thing happens vs. Canadian Thresh mongeese 3/3 make it a dead off color card vs. a mana denial opponent, snare targettable... they are different cards and covers very different roles IMHO
Thank you for your very interesting post Gros.
Concerning your sideboard plan, there are a few things i personally don't like :
RUG : why do you side out Vendilion Clique ? It's good at blocking Goose and Delver, seeing their hand is awesome and it allows you to resolve more easily your bombs. I also like to keep 2 FoW not to lose on tempo and to be able to resolve your gamebreaking threats more easily. The issue is that you already have way to much cards to side in and few to side out in this matchup which is the sign that there is something wrong in your 75.
D&T : No love for Vendilion Clique huh ? I value it more than the second and third CB and the third FoW is this matchup.
Elves : I wouldn't blindly side in Wear/Tear (for Choke i guess ?) because very few versions have it and i would keep V. Clique (again :p) as it's a very good card in the matchup (in addition to the classics seeing their hand, removing a NO or a Glimpse and putting back your miracles in your deck, they have litteraly no way to block it, so it's also a good kill)
Jund : I don't like keeping Force of Will in this matchup and i don't understand why you side out SFM + Batterskull, Batterskull is awesome against them.
Maverick : I like to keep my Spell Pierce in because they have quite a few very dangerous targets after board (Choke, Sylvan Library, Elspeth, GSZ). SFM + Batterskull seems good too. I don't like Relic and i'm not sure about Blood Moon but it's probably good.
I would side like that : + In 1 Wear/Tear, 1 E.E., 1 Sulfur, 1 Pyroclasm/1 Terminus, (2 Blood Moon)
Out : 2 Vendilion Clique ( :) ), 2 CB (they play Cavern of Soul and have ways to destroy it), 1 FoW (2 FoW)
Miracles : If they didn't see SFM game one, you may want to consider keeping it because they will probably have no way to deal with it (try to keep 3 manas open to avoid Wear). I don't like to keep to 2 StP neither.
OmniTell : Keep EoA and side out a Jace (quite bad in this matchup)
Patriot Tempo : Cliques seems better than Counterspell, EE and FoW here.
Sneak and Show : I don't really like terminus in this matchup. Sure sometimes you will win against an Emrakul but most of time you will die anyway if they have a Griselbrand or a Sneak Attack. Keeping EoA seems better because it's a 3 drop and because you need ways to close the game.
I hope this will help you and i will gladly debate about it if you think i'm wrong.
Cheers.
I'd bring in the second Pyroblast over the EE. If you know it's ANT (you see Cabal Ritual), I wouldn't expect Empty the Warrens. Also, the Jace is more useful than the single Swords. It pitches to FoW and Fateseal is actually pretty good against storm decks in the late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
I'd probably take out some Cliques over Terminus. 6cmc is useful and Cliques aren't very useful. Sending a Bolt effect to the bottom and having them draw another Bolt effect isn't helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
You can think about bringing in REBs since they nuke Delvers, but you already have Flusterstorms against their counters, so it's up to you. I wouldn't take out Cliques, like Shaka said trade with Delver and Goose. Snapcasters can probably come out since you're bringing in GY hate. I'd also probably rather have more Jace than the Sulfur Elemental.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Leave in the Cliques. D&T have a lot of variance draws, and Clique is also good against SFM. You can lose the FoWs probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Seems fine. You might think about another Terminus though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Since you have no Jitte in the board, SFM is agreeably lackluster here. Again, Clique seems good against their variance. I'm not sure if Flusterstorm is actually better here than Spell Pierce. I'd be inclined to say no, but I haven't experimented with it. Also, like Shaka said, Wear//Tear is meh. I'd rather board out Flusterstorm and Wear//Tear, leave in the Pierces, and if they do something like Choke, just counter it. Choke doesn't matter anyways if you have CBTop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
I feel like CB is more useful than FoW, but I suppose it could depend whether you're on the play or draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Again like Shaka said, SFM + BSkull is great against Jund. I'm not sure why you want Wear//Tear. I'd do something more like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
+1 EE, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Terminus, +2 Blood Moon, +2 Relic
-3 FoW, -3 Pierce, -1 Snapcaster
Again, Cliques and get rid of FoW. Bring in both Pyroclasm and Terminus. I'm unsure about Blood Moon. Probably leave SFM over that and something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Why Wear//Tear? Jace and Cliques are both good. You don't need FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Leave in Terminus and take out Swords; Terminus dodges CB better if you need to resolve removal. Sulfur Elemental and Flusterstorm probably aren't as good as SFM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
You can take out EE over Entreat. Leave in Jace for Blue count and potential late game Fateseals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Probably take out FoW over Clique (trades with Delver and Geist). I'd try to leave in more Jaces too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
Seems fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
I would leave in all the Terminus and take out SFM over the Entreats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
In general, I'd rather run RIPs than Relics in the board. Also, with zero Vensers and ORing effects, Show and Tell will be a really tough MU.
"Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
OmniTell 8
In 1 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1Wear/Tear, 2 pyroblast, 1 ReB, 1 Sulfur elemental
Out 4 Plow, 3 Terminus, 1 Entreat the Angels
Shaka1333
OmniTell : Keep EoA and side out a Jace (quite bad in this matchup)
Dzra
You can take out EE over Entreat. Leave in Jace for Blue count and potential late game Fateseals."
I have the same exerience and oppinion like Dzra on the Omni-Tell match up. I played (UWR Miracles with Moat MD) in a tournament against Omni-Tell (which is my other favourite deck). Second turn CB-Top and later Jace gave a total lock with Brainstorm and Clique on the top of my library. I lost pre board but won both games postboard.
Thanks to all of you for the time dedicated to me, i will respond to Dzra because his post basically contains the UB control and the Shaka ones'
let's start :)
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
AnT 9
In 1 FoW 2 Flusterstorm 1 Reb 1 E.E. 1 Pyro 2 Relic, 1 Sulfur
Out 2 Eta 3 Terminus 3 Plow 1 Jace
you maybe right on this, maybe i'm too afraid of Xantid Swarm, refreshing this Sb plan we have this:Quote:
I'd bring in the second Pyroblast over the EE. If you know it's ANT (you see Cabal Ritual), I wouldn't expect Empty the Warrens. Also, the Jace is more useful than the single Swords. It pitches to FoW and Fateseal is actually pretty good against storm decks in the late game.
In 1 FoW 2 Flusterstorm 1 Reb 2 Pyro 2 Relic, 1 Sulfur
Out 2 Eta 3 Terminus 4 Plow
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Burn 4
In 1 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Wear/Tear,
Out 1 Jace, 2 Terminus, 1 Eta
V. Clique IMHO would stay in to apply pressure to the opponent, even if it's ability is obviously underwhelming but il'll test it out even if Terminus seems equally underwhelming if not for it's 6 cmc.Quote:
I'd probably take out some Cliques over Terminus. 6cmc is useful and Cliques aren't very useful. Sending a Bolt effect to the bottom and having them draw another Bolt effect isn't helpful.
then:
In 1 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Wear/Tear,
Out 1 Jace, 2 V. Clique, 1 Eta
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Canadian Threshold 7 (RUG Delver)
In 1 Terminus, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Engineered explosives, 2 Relic of Progenitus 1 Sulfur
Out 2 Jace TmS, 3 FoW, 2 Vendilion
i really don't like siding in Rebs for dealing with Delvers since we would need to succesfully fetch on Volcanic early giving our opponent more ways to manascrew us, i boarded out cliques because IMHO is pretty hard for it to slalom between dazes, FoWs, Bolts, Rebs and succefully trade with a mongoose, i left in both Snapcasters because if we have relic online we are winning then we don't need it too much, then if we don't have relic online we'd like to draw it and use it, then Relic isn't a "hard GY card", so it can coexhist on board with snappy if used carefully Jace has been cut because of it's high cmc and because it has hard time dealing with Rebs and mongooses.Quote:
You can think about bringing in REBs since they nuke Delvers, but you already have Flusterstorms against their counters, so it's up to you. I wouldn't take out Cliques, like Shaka said trade with Delver and Goose. Snapcasters can probably come out since you're bringing in GY hate. I'd also probably rather have more Jace than the Sulfur Elemental.
maybe i can try something like this one but i'm not totally sold on it:
In 1 Terminus, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Engineered explosives, 2 Relic of Progenitus
Out 1 Jace TmS, 3 FoW, 2 Vendilion
Death and Taxes 5
In 1 Wear/Tear, 1 EE, 1 Sulfur Elemental, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Terminus
Out 2 Vendilion Clique, 3 Spell Pierce
FoW originally stayed in because i did it so when i played 4 in MD for getting rid of vial, now that i have 3 it seems right to board them out, i found V. Clique underwhelming vs. D&T since he plays 3 karakas MD but the effect vs. stoneforge is totally worth it actually then:Quote:
Leave in the Cliques. D&T have a lot of variance draws, and Clique is also good against SFM. You can lose the FoWs probably.
In 1 Wear/Tear, 1 EE, 1 Sulfur Elemental, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Terminus,
Out 3 FoW, 2 Spell Pierce
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Deathblade (Italian lists with Geists maindeck, no Confidants and 2 FoW MD) 7/6
In 3 pyro/Reb, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Blood Moon
Out 3 FoW, 3 pierce
Terminus compete with the pyroclasm's slot in here, the advantage of the first is that can easily kill Geist equipped, the latter can't, but the latter require way less setup, i think it's still debatableQuote:
Seems fine. You might think about another Terminus though.
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Elves 7
In 1 FoW, 1 Terminus, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 E.E., 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Flusterstorm
Out 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 1 Vendilion Clique, 3 Spell pierce
Guess you're right in this case i ususally choose before boarding if i wanna side or not at alla vs. choke, in this case i choose i don't care 'bout it then:Quote:
Since you have no Jitte in the board, SFM is agreeably lackluster here. Again, Clique seems good against their variance. I'm not sure if Flusterstorm is actually better here than Spell Pierce. I'd be inclined to say no, but I haven't experimented with it. Also, like Shaka said, Wear//Tear is meh. I'd rather board out Flusterstorm and Wear//Tear, leave in the Pierces, and if they do something like Choke, just counter it. Choke doesn't matter anyways if you have CBTop.
In 1 FoW, 1 Terminus, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 E.E., 2 Flusterstorm
Out 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 3 Spell pierce
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Goblins 6
In 1 Terminus, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Wear/Tear, 1 FoW, 1 E.E, 1 Sulfur
Out 3 Pierce, 3 CB
i think that boarding out or keepin in pierces could depend if we're OtP or OtD, but in my place people usually plays Vials and cavern of Souls, and with their "strange" mana curve CB would result totally underwhelming IMHO, the motivation to keep it in is that maybe it can bait a Krosan instead of BSkull, but if our opponent is good i guess this would be really hard. The reasoning behind keeping FoWs in is the same vs. D&T, but here i board in the 4th too then i guess it may worksQuote:
I feel like CB is more useful than FoW, but I suppose it could depend whether you're on the play or draw.
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Jund 8
In 1 Wear/Tear, 1 E.E., 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Terminus, 2 Blood Moon, 2 Relic of Progenitus
Out 3 CB, 2 SfM, 1 Bskull, 2 Vendilion
i Found this sb plan totally weak to choke, no way to deal with it, and little ways to deal with Lili IMHO, i boarded out alla the decay targets to make him draw a little more dead, then i guess mistic could really hard vial in a BSkull dodging P.Fire, Decays, Thoughtseizes, Tourachs, Lilianas...Quote:
Again like Shaka said, SFM + BSkull is great against Jund. I'm not sure why you want Wear//Tear. I'd do something more like this:
+1 EE, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Terminus, +2 Blood Moon, +2 Relic
-3 FoW, -3 Pierce, -1 Snapcaster
but if your suggestions are inspired by test sessions i will totally test it out even if i respectfully disagree.
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Maverick 8
In 1 Wear/Tear, 1 E.E., 2 Relic, 1 Sulfur, 2 Blood Moon, 1 Pyroclasm/1 Terminus
Out 2 SfM, 1 BSkull, 3 Pierce, 2 Vendilion Clique
here i didn't explain myself well, i was referring to Punishing Dark Maverick, Fow is here because for him is a joke to play around pierces, then a resolved Elspeth or Choke can kill uson it's own, Blood moon could be a good plan, SFM vs. P. fires qasalis, krosans, and all the rest has a real hard time IMHO. Clique could be good, but there's no more cards to cut MD IMHOQuote:
Again, Cliques and get rid of FoW. Bring in both Pyroclasm and Terminus. I'm unsure about Blood Moon. Probably leave SFM over that and something else.
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Merfolks 6
In 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Terminus, 1 E.E., 1Wear/Tear
Out 1 Jace, 3 Pierce, 2 Vendilion
Totally agree, which is the precise use of Vclique here? discard resp to Vial activation?:Quote:
Why Wear//Tear? Jace and Cliques are both good. You don't need FoW.
In 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Terminus, 1 E.E., 1 Pyroclasm ?
Out 3 Pierce, 3 FoWs,
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Miracles 8
In 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Reb, 1 E.E., 1 Sulfur Elemental
Out 2 SFM, 1 Bskull, 3 Terminus, 2 Plow
Flusterstorm was here for not letting the opponent resolves EtA because i always thought Terminus would be a dead draw, but is actually better than Plow:Quote:
Leave in Terminus and take out Swords; Terminus dodges CB better if you need to resolve removal. Sulfur Elemental and Flusterstorm probably aren't as good as SFM.
In 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Reb, 1 E.E.,
Out 1 Terminus, 4 Plow
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
OmniTell 8
In 1 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1Wear/Tear, 2 pyroblast, 1 ReB, 1 Sulfur elemental
Out 4 Plow, 3 Terminus, 1 Entreat the Angels
Totally right, jace is still in there:Quote:
You can take out EE over Entreat. Leave in Jace for Blue count and potential late game Fateseals.
In 1 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1Wear/Tear, 2 pyroblast, 1 ReB, 1 Sulfur elemental
Out 4 Plow, 3 Terminus, 1 EE
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Patriot tempo. 7
In 2reb, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Terminus 1 Wear/Tear, 1 Pyroclasm
Out 2 Jace, Tms, 3 pierce, 2 vendilion
FoWs were there to deal with Geists, is boarding in Blood Moons a bad idea in here? again i think Vendilion is a lot fragile to get to trade with geists.. but let see:Quote:
Probably take out FoW over Clique (trades with Delver and Geist). I'd try to leave in more Jaces too.
In 2reb, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Terminus 1 Wear/Tear, 1 Pyroclasm
Out 1 Jace, Tms, 3 pierce, 3 FoW
Quote Originally Posted by Gros View Post
Sneak & Show 8
In 1 Sulfur Elemental, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Force of Will, 1 Wear/Tear
Out 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Entreat the Angels 1 E.E, 1 Terminus
ok let's try this:Quote:
I would leave in all the Terminus and take out SFM over the Entreats.
In 1 Sulfur Elemental, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Force of Will, 1 Wear/Tear
Out 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 SFM, 1 BSkull 1 E.E,
I think RIP is totally> relic if played maindeck, but post board Relic IMHO is more versatile because it isn't so "hard", it can be played in different modes and vs combo you can make tricks like hiding Fow with BS in resp to discard effect, then draw it in resp to his tutor/AN/PiF emptying graves, plus it cicles itself on desperate moments, and it can trigger miracles at instant speed in absence ot Top and it leaves room to play Snappy, regarding the SHow and something matchups i guess you're roght what would you eventually cut MD for a Venser?Quote:
In general, I'd rather run RIPs than Relics in the board. Also, with zero Vensers and ORing effects, Show and Tell will be a really tough MU.
If anyone of you have some more perplexity let me know it
thanks for the help and the time
Yeah ... now that i think more about it, Jace seems good in the OmniShow matchup because you have the CB lock factor... i was thinking about my experience with Esperblade where Jace is worst in the matchup.
Top32 at Ovino8, list and report to come.
Report is up: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post754702
List was very good in this very meta, which consited of quite some Miracles. I liked pretty much everything, only thing I am unsure about is the amount of red sources... I might want a 3rd one somewhere.
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ponder
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Counterbalance
Greetings