Printable View
I think the third bridge is fine, since it actually takes the fourth gy hate slot. Most gy centric decks kill through combat, and the third bridge happens to also be reasonable vs D&T, sneak and show, eldrazi, and lands to name a few. I also don't like the entomb. I think you seriously consider the fourth rit, based on how many potent 3drops you have, the fourth hymn, or the third scroll.
I'll see how rit does in the deck. Honestly it already runs smooth as it is. I've thought about mainboarding one copy of [/cards]Chains of Mephistopheles[/cards] which would open a slot in the sideboard. Lots of decks running extra card draw between "Anything & [Plug in blue], sylvan library, griselbrand, ect. Not sure what to plug into the sideboard ATM. collective brutality seems a fair choice, but not for a sideboard slot, which means hold Chains in the side and main deck Brutality.
I play monoblack as well, and it is really upsetting to lose against unexperienced burn players. Just try to get heavy discard early since they have no card advantage engine. Otherwise, it is difficult to stabilize against them. Nether Void is great with Cursed Scroll or Mishra's factory on the field. But also make sure you can continue to disrupt their hand as they begin to draw out of the early discard. Not having Dark Rituals in my list is the one thing I miss against burn, because you do need to be explosive against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
nether void is fantastic fo a deck like this but it's important to remember that it effects you as well. If you plan to go that route, ensure your average CMC is low or you won't play anything for a long time. I run two copies mainboard with 4 copies of sinkhole just to make sure they don't gain enough land on the field to pay 4-5 mana for their one and two drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
Hey all:
Pox has been my pet deck for a long time. It feels to me like mono black may be the most consistent approach, with b/g having the best results given the build and the appropriate meta.
I've dabbled with b/w build to moderate success. It's a great built because it really pushes the perfect victory line (no cards, no permanents for your opponent) but it feels like you are always fighting an uphill battle tapping out for 3 cmc spells.
What do you all think is best? What do you prefer?
Finally, have any of you given any thought to these builds?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=74021
Or
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=75964
Or
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92091
Sometimes it feels like with mono black and b/g we reached the max potential with those builds and they prove to be not quite good enough and leave a lot of room for your opponent to wiggle free. I wonder if it's possible to build a new gen smallpox deck?
An initial idea, with very little thought besides thematic structure :
4 Smallpox
4 Stifle
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sinkhole
3 Predict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Innocent Blood
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
Swamps
Islands
Maybe darkslick shores
Maybe Watery Grave
Just an initial thought.
I feel like any Pox list running blue should run Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver over Jace, the Mind Sculptor ...Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
But ashiok, nightmare weaver is mill, not control or disruption. jace, the mind sculptor is disruption and control.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
So you manage to mill a person who has a creature meant to control and disrupt, and raise it from the grave...several turns later....never mind I can't finish this thought.
In the scenario where we run a blue list, I think jace serves a lot of important purposes. Card advantage (per Reid Duke, all control decks need this), inevitability, and the fatesealing effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostfire86
Pox often loses the top deck war, especially to jace.
Would anyone card to shoot an idea out there in the ub or bug vein?
I got that. My post was more about how weaver is just bad for Pox compared to jaceQuote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
My bad, should have replied to the guy above you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostfire86
Still, if you had to build under the blue-black pox constraints, which direction would you go?
Jace is of course a great planeswalker, but I feel hes just too slow at 4cmc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostfire86
Ashiok is another form of resource denial, especially in top deck mode you are getting three cards and she is very hard to kill besides Abrupt Decay.
Hey all, I updated my list a little: I cut the shadow of Doubt, toxic deluge, and night of Soul's Betrayal from the main for 3 more big Pox, and I cut the perish, toxic deluge, delerium skeins, and one trinisphere from the board for 4 The Rack.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
I played in a 16 person event with it, and had a lot of fun. I beat Miracles, High Tide, Reanimator, then lost to grixis Delver somehow in the finals.
I think cutting all of my sweepers was a mistake, I wanted a deluge or nosb pretty bad vs Delver. Casting multiple Pox per game is huge though. I have re-tweaked by cutting 2 pox for the deluge and Nosb, and cutting one rack for a deluge in the side. I'm excited to run it back again!
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
I do think the rack is very good in pox. Planeswalkers being one of the biggest issues the deck has, the redirect angle with the rack is pretty great. The other issue is swarms, so it seems like having board sweeper is pretty important. I'm a big fan of both night and deluge, not a big fan of pox, but kudos for doing so well and playing the original namesake of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ntropy
the rack works with pox nicely actually. Most of us will play cursed scroll instead because it options for doing 2 damage to target creature, just in case you can't force them to sac it. I've not had an issue with big creatures hitting the field when playing pox. Its usually that 1-2 cheap creature(s) that got dropped during the game which is why cursed scroll is loved over the rack.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Im not a fan of Night of Souls' betrayal. Most decks will play key component creatures that are human that have a 1-2 offense and defense point. engineered plague does the same job, cheaper, and takes care of tribal.
Toxic Deluge I have found to be very useful. I run 2 copies mainboard along side of 1 copy of black sun's zenith. Yep Im that guy.
In the debate over deluge I can say that damnation cost to much to be of any help most of the time and we need a board wipe that can effectively deal with overrunning, which in the case of Pox can happen at only 2 creatures if the opponent plays correctly. ratchet bomb is also just to slow for an "Oh S***" moment, but great if you have time for set up. nevinyrral's disk in so many ways is worse than damnation because is cost 5 mana to set up and pop vs 4 to cast. With this being said I know other Pox players mention the life lose that [/cards]toxic deluge[/cards] is not something they are willing to take, but they are willing to play snuff out at 4 life to kill one creature instead of 4 life to kill all creatures. The argument comes down to paying mana. Free vs paying 3...or at least one [cards]dark ritual[/card] that they should be main boarding anyway. In the end emrakul, the aeons torn, progenitus, griselbrand, and Iona, shield of emeria, [*Insert tribal], and [*Insert fast ramp winnie deck] don't really care about your 1 copy of snuff out in the entire main and side board of the pox deck.
Pox got traded out as soon as liliana of the veil was on the scene. It still holds a perfect place for those who can't dish out $100 for a single copy of Lilly when compared to it's own price around $3. It is not a game winner but very fun game changer. As an addition to the deck already running Lilly I have nothing to say because I've not done it myself and I've not seen anyone else do so. I have heard good things about it, but many people hear many things said.
I forgot about the Planeswalker interaction! Even better! I like night of Soul's Betrayal because there is a lot of BUG and infect in my meta, which do not have common creature types, and BUG runs abrupt decay. Vs grixis Delver, death and taxes, elves, or empty the Warrens, of course plague is better. I run a night main and 2 plagues in the side. I like big Pox because it is soo impactful. It often takes out 4 or more cards, second only to toxic deluge. 4 was perhaps too many, but it can really clamp down a game when you're ahead, as well as equalize when you're behind. It does compete for the 3 slot, but I love it. It also feels great when your opponent has to read it twice, and is still surprised upon resolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostfire86
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Regarding the Burn MU I want to add that playing the BW version of the deck, I had good results playing Gerrard's Verdict as - if you actually hit 2 cards - you most likely prevent 6 damage form being done / gain 6 life.
You gain life for lands discarded. That is not very likely against a burn deck.
Still in that match up it is a fifth Hymn to Tourach which is very useful.
Neat. I haven't had to think about the burn matchup in ages, since my loam pox build ran chalice main. I didn't play pox this week at the lgs, I like to give them a break occasionally, but for now I've settled on clocking with the rack and living with trinisphere, at least until I get me some collective brutalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
So, I actually got to play at legacy last night. Ran 3-0, had a blast.
Round 1, knight fall 2-0. Game 1, on the play, turn 1 blossom, turn 2 he used his spell pierce on my sinkhole, turn three I played the abyss, and found a decay and a Liliana to clean up the two creature turns while a faerie and a pair of factories clocked in. Game 2, I got to play the hymns and smallpoxes and sinkhole to force him into some really bad over committing into a bsz followed by Liliana+cursed scroll.
Round 2 Izzet painted stone 2-1 game 1 was really intricate, he found a bridge to keep blossom from killing him, and managed to kill the cursed scroll I was riding at 2 life. He got a welder on line to assemble painted stone, and the next card was a decay for the bridge. Game two he mulled to five and I had turn 1 hymn you, turn two Liliana, turn 3 I drop a scroll and my hand is a pair of smallpoxes. Game three he keeps a greedy hand (one land, top, opal, welder, grindstone, reb, painter) and I wasteland his volc out from under him, needle his welder, and he doesn't find another land until I have Lili veil at 8 loyalty.
Round 3 shardless (2-1) game one he suspends a pair of ancestral on turn 3, and I manage to ride a Liliana, a cursed scroll, and a pair of abrupt decays to getting him back to zero resources. Game two, I misplay around forcing the top-Deck war and die to the third tarmogoyf. Game three is a surgical dance around each of us drawing two pithing needles (his name wasteland and Lili veil, mine name Drs and jace the sculptor) and me riding a pair of smallpoxes and a bitterblossom.
1 bayou
1 cabal pit
1 Forest
2 marsh flats
4 Mishra's factory
4 swamp
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 verdant catacomb
4 wasteland
1 nether spirit
4 abrupt decay
2 bitterblossom
1 crucible of worlds
2 cursed scroll
1 grim tutor
4 hymn to tourach
4 Liliana of the veil
2 mox diamond
2 nether void
3 sinkhole
4 smallpox
1 the abyss
4 thoughtseize
2 black sun's zenith
2 ensnaring bridge (1 is normally a chains, but we only had 1 storm and 1 shardless, with two eldrazi, a knight fall and a mud)
2 extirpate
1 Liliana, the last hope
1 night of soul's betrayal
1 Ob nixilis, reignited
3 pithing needle
3 surgical extraction
Hi Everyone,
I'd like to share my build, which I have consecutively tested through past one year and a half. I find mono black to be the most consistent build.
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
8x Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Pox
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
2x Toxic Deluge
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Nether Spirit
2x Tombstalker
SIDEBOARD
1x Diabolic Edict (TMP)
1x Engineered Plague (7ED)
3x Ensnaring Bridge (STH)
3x Leyline of the Void (M11)
1x Massacre (NMS)
2x Nether Void (LEG)
1x Perish (TMP)
2x Pithing Needle (M10)
1x The Abyss *IT* (LEG)
1.Inclusion of fethes allows library manipulation if you draw bad cards. Also you don't have to fire them under urbrog unless necessary.
2. Mazes do a great work here. Can stop fatties, trample creatures and save your ass until you can cast a removal spell.
3. Mishars' and Wastelands are obvious.
4.The Tabernacle helps a lot against swarm decks and with overall mana denial plan it is not only limited to fighting aggro decks.
5. With so many pox spells I decided that 4 copies of urborg are necessary. Also wastelands happen.
6. Chains are great against many decks. It almost always eats a Force of Will giving way to Liliana. But is also meta dependent. But even if useless can always be sacrificed to smallpox if spirit is absent. Possilbe split like 1 Chains/ 1 Nether Void or The Abyss or 2 Nether Voids instead.
7. Scrolls are obvious but, I need to add that in my build which includes bridges it is much more of an asset. Also it helps killing specific creatures, which we lack.
8. I have cut Hymns and Inquisitions down to 3 cause too many a time they were just useless in late-game.
9. 2 copies of big Pox became a necessity due to a slow clock. Without them you have Mazes and spirits to guard you but time elapses and you do not deal sufficient amount of damage. Also helps a lot with mana denial plan but mostly it's about 1/3 of your opponent's life.
10. Full playset of sinkholes for mana denial.
11. Never enough of Smallpoxes :D. I always get Chalices and Sanctum prelatess on 2.
12. Toxic Deluge is a great mass removal. I also played BSZ but now I will always put Toxic before BSZ.
13. 4 Lillies and no need to elaborate.
14. Two Nether spirits instead of one because he is too important in this deck as a recurring blocker who stops goyfs and others and one copy was to occasional to be relied on.
15. Two Tombstalkers as game finishers. They also provide graveyard manipulation if somehow you got the second spirit in (personally I only once had this bad luck).
Sideboard is pretty stright-forward.
1. Edict against fatties like Emrakul or Marit Lage.
2. Plague against tribals.
3. Bridges against problematic match-ups like lands, show and tells/reanimators, eldrazis etc.
4. Leylines cause usually most of the decks that hate that card have little or no means at all for fighting against it.
5. Nether Voids against combo decks.
6. Pithing needle is obvious.
7. The Abyss against creature based decks.
8. Massacre and Perish are meta dependent.
This deck got me a winning place in a local tournament some time ago, ex aequo with Turbo Eldrazi. I got 2-1 against BURG,
2-1 against Manaless Dredge, 2-1 against R/G Lands and 1-0-1 against the Eldrazi.
What it lacks is grave-hate in the first game.
Any suggestions appreciated :)
Nihil spellbomb is quite good in the main deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
You and I are on the same page!
I gave up on Pox for a few years because the reality is, it is not good enough to consistently win. If Loam Pox and MBC Pox were so great they would be putting up results, but the reality is they have so many weaknesses and there really isn't a whole lot of innovation going on.
Pox is too durdley and do-nothing. Without pressure the opponent is given so much time to draw a Past in Flames, Planeswalker, Mentor, Sneak Attack, etc. This is why Pox never puts up results, it is not nearly proactive enough. There needs to be a way to increase consistency outside of just playing excess copies of discard spells and removal spells, over a long tournament you inevitably draw the "wrong half" of your deck.
I've been adding blue to have access to 4 Brainstorm and 4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Ironically, this build is even more durdley than other versions of Pox as my only win-cons are 1 Creeping Tar Pit and milling with Jace emblem. The blue versions listed above playing Snapcaster Mage do not make sense to me. It generally takes 4 mana to play Snapcaster and to flash something back, baby Jace lets you pay the 2 then next turn flip it, flashback, and blanks several creatures from attacking until you can flashback another answer. Just look at your graveyard around turn 5 and imagine having access to one of those cards along with your top-deck every few turns.
I am still very early in testing, but having Brainstorm to exchange discard for removal or vice-versa, finding a planeswalker late game, cashing in excess land, and finding sideboard cards is proving to be incredible. The baby Jace is similar to the card advantage you are used to from Cursed Scroll but is more versatile and less mana intensive.
I have yet to play it vs Miracles (I play online and haven't been matched with it yet) but the usual suspects still get decimated (Eldrazi, Death & Taxes, Delver) and now there is the added advantage of having better game vs combo.
I am playing a Bayou and 4 Abrupt Decay in the board as a way to fight non-creature permanents but I am also debating on switching out my 2 Funeral Charm for 2 Piracy Charm in the md which gives me 13 blue cards main and taking the Decays out for Force of Wills. I will have to get more reps to know if this makes sense, but free interaction while I build my mana and protect walkers seems great. It also goes against what Pox generally does, but at least there are some options with this build that have not been fleshed out.
Just finished a League with U/B Pox and went 4-1
Round 1 I got destroyed by Shardless BUG. I didn't expect to win this as when I played other versions of Pox this never was an ideal matchup. Trying to one for one them with a few two for ones doesn't really work when they have a ton of their own two for ones and three for ones. The only strategy that ever worked for me in the past was as much mana denial as possible. I did bring in a Tabernacle, Deluge, and True-Name Nemesis but it was irrelevant. Very brutal. This was the first time I ever had issues running 2 Baleful Strix alongside 3 Innocent Blood and 4 Smallpox (wanted to cast Blood and had Strix in play), debating on putting 1 Disfigure in place of 1 Blood.
Round 2 vs Elves. I won 2-0 pretty handily. I play 2 Funeral Charm and the instant speed was pretty relevant, killing Wirewood Symbiote eot. Brought in 2 Deluge and Tabernacle. I had already turn one Innocent Blood, turn two Smallpox with turn three the option of playing Jace or Smallpox again. Went with Jace because I had Deluge in my hand and wanted to have mana to cast it. This was basically the only turn my opponent had a chance to do something, he or she Glimpse of Nature for a handful of dorks then I Deluge and they scooped. I am unsure as to whether or not leaving that small window was correct, I guess it is a percentage game. This match feels just as favorable as it did before I played blue.
Round 3 vs Miracles. I won 2-1. This is the most important matchup from my perspective, if you can't hang with Miracles you need to pick a new deck. Game 1 we were at parity for quite a while. Eventually a Mentor landed, created a token which I dealt with but next turn another came and that was the end of it. Game 2 I may have gotten a little fortunate. I assume my opponent took out every Terminus because after I did some hand disruption on T2, opponent scooped to my 1 copy of True-Name Nemesis.
G3
IoK for CB T1,
T2 Jace
T2 opponent jams EE for 2
my T3 I get to Wasteland the Tundra, IoK for Snapcaster, loot with Jace which flips then flashback Brainstorm I had binned (still had 2 more Brainstorm in hand)
T4 opp bricks on land, plays top, I respond with Needle naming Top then Sinkhole the only land. Jace is now on 3 with sinkhole in yard, another jace in hand plus liliana and brainstorm
opponent scoops after I assume gets no land again
Round 4 vs Sneak and Show which I never had much luck with before (they always had enough time to top deck an answer) I won 2-0, G1 opponent landed T3 Show and Tell but I was sitting at 4 land with Liliana and Innocent Blood in hand so the Emrakul didn't make it. Opponent spends next turn casting three cantrips, my next turn I topdeck Hymn, then flash it back with Jace. Opponent scoops when I start playing and flashing back Smallpox to get rid of his or her lands. G2 was pretty similar, opponent did get to jam a Sneak Attack into play but I had Jace and Liliana in play so either they would top deck a land and have to play it then I would either topdeck Smallpox or Sinkhole or flashback one of those or they would get something they couldn't play and Liliana ate it. I beat down with a Baleful Strix for 8 points of damage then found a Tar Pit.
Round 5 vs Storm and yet again another deck I always had trouble with because they would eventually top deck Past in Flames or Ad Nauseam or sculpt with Top. Basically it was the same story as the rest of the games, the card advantage created by baby Jace was the key to victory. When you get to T1 IoK, T2 Jace then T3 Hymn, flashback Hymn or Sinkhole it is a massive boost.
Here's the deck for anyone concerned (sorry I don't know how to do tags as I don't post a lot)
Land
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Brainstorm
2 Baleful Strix
1 Recoil
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
2 Funeral Charm
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bitterblossom
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Leyline of the Void
Moving forward, I'm not so sure the Abrupt Decays are where I wanna be vs Miracles. Hopefully I'll play the match a few more times to see what strategy works.
The maindeck Recoil is the closest catchall I can find, in this deck it can literally act as an instant speed Vindicate.
I am going to shake-up the one mana removal a little bit, I'm thinking 1 Innocent Blood, 1 Disfigure, 1 Dismember. Only 1 time was the Strix an issue with a sac effect, so it doesn't need a lot of adjustment.
I almost wonder if 1 Rancid Earth in the board would help vs Miracles as the 1 damage kills just about all of their creatures and the mana denial is super effective.
Standstill is another blue card I have been pondering in my head, perhaps replacing the 1 mana interaction with Force of Will. Either way, baby Jace is worth testing further with. The added blue provides Pox everything it was missing before.
I applaud your effort to break new ground!
It is a common instinct to try improving the deck by focusing on the control aspect of Pox. It generally lead to durdleyness and an inability to finish games in time, as you noted.
Adding blue may change that, but may also lead to the conclusion that it is better to just play Miracles.
Keep us updated!
great work, much kudoos to you...Quote:
Originally Posted by sppabin
as much as i hate brainstorm (even swore to never play a deck that uses it), i would be tempted to try this deck since POX is a favorite of mine.
if you don't want the 17-18 "blue" card density that force of will requires, can daze be used as a free counter instead?
can you go down to 3 liliana's and 3 jace's, or is the 4 of each a requirement?
I currently don't play Force of Will, just stated that it is an option. The only blue cards are Brainstorm, Jace, a pair of Baleful Strix and a single Recoil as a catchall, oh and the Creeping Tar Pit.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
I couldn't really give you a definite answer about the numbers, I have no intentions of cutting either planeswalker.
The Daze could be interesting, I can imagine turn 2 casting Sinkhole or Hymn and still being able to interact being a very good place to be in.
Currently I just want to toy with the sideboard.
But Miracles doesn't get to cast 6 Sinkholes in one game :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I totally agree that U/B Pox is the way forward. With the splashing of blue and cards such as Brainstorm and Baby Jace, it provides the card filtering and diverse angles of denial that Pox has needed for such a long time.
This is a preliminary list for a more modern Pox list that is more adjusted to the current meta (Note that the sideboard is a very important part of this deck)
//Creatures(6)//
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Nether Spirit
//Sorceries(15)//
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Toxic Deluge
//Instants(14)//
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Stifle
//Planeswalkers(3)//
3 Liliana of The Veil
//Artifacts(2)//
2 Cursed Scroll
//Lands(20)//
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
3 Swamp
2 Island
//Sideboard(15)//
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of The Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thorn of Amethysts
I think that Daze is great in this deck since it can basically remove a permanent for 0 mana, the Deluges are for the relatively creature heavy meta right now, but maybe they are better for the Sideboard. The only card I'm not sure on is Cabal Therapy since this deck can't exploit it very well. Does anybody have an idea of what I should replace it with?
- Smallpox plays very poorly alongside Deathrite
- Toxic Deluge plays very poorly alongside Deathrite
- Counterspells and Stifles are disappointing topdecks when you are hellbent with a Liliana in play (they also don't have any Synergy with JVP compared to spells that can be used proactively e.g. Sinkhole)
- 4 Brainstorm maindeck and 2 Chains in the side, what
- 0 Ways to abuse Therapy apart from Nether Spirit which gets disabled by your x4 Deathrite Shaman
- 4 Dark Ritual with 0 Hymn to Tourach and 0 Sinkhole and no spell that costs more than 3
If I was going to play a Pox deck with blue in it I think I would start with sppabin's list a few posts above. JVP seems like a great addition to the Pox archetype, the only downside being that it makes your opponent's removal live and when it dies it turns Nether Spirits off. In many game states I can see it being effectively a super-Liliana and when put into play alongside Liliana I imagine it becomes very difficult for your opponent to ever do anything (Being able to flashback Smallpox and Sinkhole to deny mana is a great help to prevent your opponent from eventually topdecking their way into a victory, which often happens when your opponent is facing down just a Liliana)
I'm not entirely convinced that Brainstorm is better than Ritual in that list although it's possible that by cutting some disruption for the Jaces you would end up with too many awkward Ritual-Jace hands that don't really do anything. Being able to flashback ritual with Jace might be additional justification for playing the 5 mana bombs (Nether Void, Ob Nixilis, etc) as you can also loot them away with Jace if you aren't in a position to cast them.
I think it's worth playing Dread of Night and/or NoSB in the side at the moment (NoSB maindeck might be fine too, with Aluren/Mentor/DNT everywhere, but you would need to change your win conditions)
I agree with most of your input, but I still think Daze is great in this deck. A free counterspell can be so helpful in the earlygame, especially backed up by discard. I also think having Chains in the sideboard despite the maindeck Brainstorm is worth it considering how much of the meta is made up of CounterTop variants, with some Shardless and Landstill as well. Otherwise I think you're right about everything you said, but I'm still going to test this build, see how it performs.
Fair warning: chains isn't actually the answer vs counter top. Yes, it turns off their brainstorms, and yes, it keeps have from zeroing, but you generally have enough permission that they want to use have as a kill con and to control the top of your deck anyways, and they will be fine using a top activation to clear a card they actively don't want from the topmost their deck. So you brought in a two mana card to interact with 4-6 one mana cards that they don't generally need past the first turn unless you stop everything else they're trying to do anyways when you're playing 4 one mana cards that it also stops. I also agree with the point about not liking deathrites with nether spirit, as the reason tombstalker and bloodghast work acceptably with spirit is because they get the last copy out of the gy or themselves out of the gy respectively. Land still isn't a terribly popular matchup, and more traditional pox lists at least tend to not only play more lands than land still, we play more interactive lands and more early permanents that will keep interacting (cursed scroll, dark rit into Lili, crucible of worlds for my wastelands etc) so that they actually need to pop their own standstill and hand us the gas a surprising amount of the time. Shardless, other leovold decks, and storm are basically the only places I actively want my chains anymore, and I'm not even playing brainstorm.
starting with sppabin's deck, i'd squeeze in 3 daze.
Also, a note on miracles, they just can't beat bitterblossom, and neither can shardless if they let you get 3 triggers off it, which means their decays get really tied up. The non-blossom way to beat miracles is to hold your sinkholes for their first basic plains, keep them off of double white for entreat (usually 2 tundra, 2 plains, 1-2 karakas.) use any smallpox/pox/wasteland shenanigans you can to keep them off of sculptor until you can get a Liliana to empty their hand with factory/scroll/nether spirit to deal 4 dmg a turn to sculptor. If you can get a turn 1-2 scroll, you don't really have to worry about anything but jace or entreat killing you since you can manage their creatures with scroll. If you're mono b, be agressive about keeping them off counter-top with your discard, if you splash g or w you can be a little less worried about it since you have decay/vindicate to deal with itmonce it hits play (3 is the least popular cmc in their deck) post board, bring in any additional walkers you have, any needles you have, and very seriously consider any surgical effects you have so you can hit their fetch lands, nullifying the effectiveness of top and brainstorm. If you saw a venser and/or a second Vendilion clique or karakas, consider a copy of the abyss and/or an e plague or two, if you saw mentor, consider whatever e plague or board wipe effects you have, and be aware that they will usually bring in as many wear/tears and at least one piece of gy interaction. Also of note, esp game 1, be wary of ever activating 2 factories instead of just pumping one, since terminus should never look like plow under, I'd rather have swords look like sinkhole. They also usually board out a couple force of wills unless you throw something obnoxiously degenerate at them (ex turn 1 blossom or turn 2 nether void)
So I've playtested your deck sppabin and it plays very well. The brainstorms have been absolutely fantastic, and Jace has helped out a lot as well.
Also what do you guys think of the new card Fatal Push?
It's there to kill the new goyf in limited.
Speaking of which is a reason to buy perish
I currently play 3 Innocent Blood (my list is a few posts ipup) and I was planning to switch a few around for Disfigure or Dismember. Fatal Push will now be included in my testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroBean
The main reason I want to trim Innocent Blood is the sorcery speed. When on the play with Funeral Charm in hand, killing their turn one creature at instant speed then casting Sinkhole/Hymn/Jace is way way better than not using that mana and casting IB then passing. Falling behind is like a kiss of death to pox. We don't have a onr mana instant speed wrath to catch up so the tempo seems very relevant. I need to compile a list of relevant creatures Fatal Push doesn't kill.
The Pacification Array have potential for Miracles. A cheaper icy manipulator.
Angler, Griselbrand, Emmy, and some other Eldrazi come to mind, not much else (except for fringe decks like NicFit or 12post, who play high cmc-creatures)Quote:
Originally Posted by sppabin