[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

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First of all, I was never claiming that anyone in their right mind would ever board in a Chain to bounce Goyf. I was merely suggesting that, while Chain is supposedly very versatile, the vast majority of cards that it ends up bouncing are cards that would be better off dead and gone, courtesy of Ray/Grudge/Claim/etc. Just because Chain has the ability to target a range of threats, does not mean you would ever NEED to target a range of threats. Most dangerous cards are enchantments and artifacts, both of which Claim solves far better than does Chain.

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What I was trying to point out is that you would side in Chain of vapor in almost the same situations that you would side in Claim. If you ended up bouncing a Goyf, it's because there was no better threat to bounce, which means that in this situation Chain of vapor is way better. I understand that claim would be better than chain in a lot of case versus artifacts and enchantments, but if you expected artifacts, you would have been better siding in grudge. If you expect enchantements, you would have been better siding in Wishpmare or Ray. Except if you expect to see a mixt of artifacts and enchantments in the same deck, you are better having a sideboard strategy of 4 grudges/ 3 chains or 3 Grudges /3 chains.

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Except now you have used 2 cards to remove 1 card. Therapy would likely have been better used to take out a future threat rather than the one already on the board in range of destruction spells. Moreover, this means that in order to use Chain to its fullest, you have to also have Therapy in hand (less likely) or in your yard. If it needs to be in your yard, then you are forced to Dredge it there, which might be difficult to accomplish in just one turn. Presumably, if an active Leyline/Crypt/Relic was preventing you from dredging earlier, you are going to be hard-pressed to make up that lost ground in just one turn. If you cannot find that Therapy, then you have just dealt with the threat for a single turn. This is the serious weakness of Chain.

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Dredging therapy in one turn is not so unlikely. When you see a leyline, it's almost everytime in the opening hand and playing ichorid you should almost always have an hand with a draw (cephalid coliseum, study or Breakthrough for that matter). You should almost always be able to dredge 3 times when you bounce a leyline, it's pretty likely that you will it a therapy. Yes, the person can replay crypt or relic, but as I said, if you expect those, you should side in grudge and not claim. There is a serious advantage of grudge that you don't need to mulligan into it. You can just continue dredging till you it one to explode after a crypt/relic. If you had claim if the last situation and you don't have it in your hand, you are in deep trouble. About 95% of the times grudge will be superior to claim if you face artefact hate. Claim would be better if there is not 2 lands in play and you don't have a way to put a dredger in your graveyard...

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Relic and Crypt are unquestionably the most used hate cards. Grudge, while incredibly useful against such threats, often require a little back up. The goal is not to just have one set of cards that counteract hatred. After all, our opponents rarely rely on just a set of Crypts or Relics. Hatred tends to be redundant and spread out over a wide range of cards from hard threats (Crypt) to soft threats (Propaganda). Nature's Claim gives you versatile countermeasures to these cards in games 2 and 3 because let's face it. It is not always clear which cards are going to be boarded in. The exact package of hatred your opponent is wielding is likely unknown to you. I would certainly bring in Grudge's to deal with artifacts (especially if there was a question that Chalice could be involved), but I would want some low-cost alternatives. Claim fits this bill.

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Most of the time, you know what your opponent is bringing. Yes, for exemple, some merfolk players play propaganda, but it's freaking rare. It's also really rare that I sideboard for a hate and it was not expected (it has not happened in the last 6 months). The problem in the situation that you've just mentioned is that you can't risk siding in 6-7 cards just because you want some alternative, you are really starting to screw the dredge engine. As I said, you can risk loosing game 2 to know what hate your opponent brought if you had sided in grudge, it won't be that bad. Not to mention that it should be pretty rare that you are surprised of thehate that are briging. If you read a lot of the discussion on different decks and the recent deck check decks, you should be able to predict most of the time what is your opponent bringing.

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One big thing that Chain has going for it over Claim is that it is castable off of the Coliseum. Other than that, however, I must respectfully disagree with the position you outline in this quote. Game 2 is admittedly a notoriously rough run, because you just do not know what your opponent is going to throw at you. That said, your best, statistical bet is that your opponent will side in artifact and enchantment based hatred. Extirpate and Ravenous Trap might also come into the picture, but neither Chain nor Claim deals with them, so their relevance is minimal in regards to this argument. Chain tends to deal with a lot of soft threats (Magus of the Moat/Tabernacle, Grunt, Jailer, and so on), but really. How many of these threats are game enders? All of these cards, and their unlisted partners, are either a) not played, b) not game ending, or c) neither played NOR game ending. Sideboards do not have to deal with every imaginable threat that could possibly arise in a million sample games. They simply have to be optimized for the most probable threats. Claim accomplishes this. Chain is more versatile overall, but less focused in the micro-picture.

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Statisticly you will see way more atifact hate than enchantment hate, hence why grudge will be better most of games 2 because it is better vs artifact and you see way more artifact than enchantment. Also, most of the times, you know when the person is going to bring leyline or not. Magus of the moat and Grunt are played in my metagame and yes, they are game ending a lot of the times. As I said, Leyline is not really played in my and many metagames, nor is enchantress or stack, so why should we waste four slots for a cards that is suboptimal compared to grudge and that is better than chain in only a few match up.

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Again, the point of the Goyf example had absolutely nothing to do with the viability of bouncing Goyf as a winning strategy. Rather, it was to illustrate that Chain of Vapor's versatility is often irrelevant. If you need to bounce a Goyf in order to win/stabilize board position, then you are probably doomed anyway

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You shouldn't side in Chain of vapor if it's irrelevant or the only hate are artifacts. In this way of sideboarding, the versatility of chain won't be wasted. In this example, if you bounce goyf, it's because it is the best play to do for the moment, and if you had claim in this situation, it would have just sit in your hand.

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1. Random hate is largely a myth. Hatred against Dredge is highly predictable, and consistently falls in the artifact/enchantment camp.
2. Just because cards exist that can hurt Dredge, does not mean they are used. As such, we need not over-dedicate our boards in the event of their usage.
3. The majority of situations in which Claim is unhelpful are either situations where Chain is similarly unhelpful (the one about Magus of the Tabernacle being backed up by Chalice and Trinisphere; nothing is going to help there), or ones that are highly unlikely (Reanimator --> turn 1 Archon, go).

I am absolutely not suggesting that Chain should be utterly removed from the sideboard, or that bounce/creature/permanent removal has no place in Ichorid because all threats are always, 100% of the time going to be artifacts and enchantments. That is absurd. There are, however, other ways to circumvent cards like Jailer (Firestorm), Archon (Furystoke Giant), Iona (swarms of zombies), and so on that do not rely on the subpar and inconsistent interaction of Chain and Therapy.

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1. I don't understand why you are saying that it's a myth when you just said "Game 2 is admittedly a notoriously rough run, because you just do not know what your opponent is going to throw at you." But yes, there is alot of random hate such as grunt, jailer, magus of the moat, magus of the tabernacle that are relevant.

2. I'm not saying to run 4x Grudges 4x ray 4x Chain, but 4x Grudges + 3-4x Chain which will be most of the time a better combo than 4xClaim + 4x Anything else.

3. You forgot to mention when you don't have a U source and when you face magus of the moat, Grunt, jailer, Dark depth, archon. They are not so common, but they are there. It can also save yourself when you need to bounce a creatures to be able to kill them or something like that.

Well, do you realise that in the example you need 2 cards in your side board (firestorm + furystroke geant) to answer 2 cards while chain could answer them both ? Threats are also not going to be 100% of the time artifacts or enchantment. Even if it were so, 4x Grudge + 3-4x Ray/wishpmare would be way more better in your sideboard than 4x Claim + 4x Whatever. Wishpmare and ray would be better at answering enchantment if you predict some and grudge would be way better at answering artifact. Except if you are able to lucksac claim in your hand every game 2 or that you CAN'T or DON'T know if your opponent is siding artifacts and enchantment hate, you should not side in claim game 2 anyway.

As I said earlier, loosing game 2 to a certain hate because you don't have claim in your sideboard is not really bad, especially if you have chain or wishpmare/ray of the revelation in your sideboard. You should win game 3 because you will have a better hate for enchantment, and claim is subpar compaired to these hate.
The only case that claim is better than these is if a deck are packing a mix of enchantments and artifact hate and no creature hate, but those decks are really rare and the chance that you face one are next to none.

@ktkenshinx - This is why I don't like Claim, it has to be in your hand and there are already cards that are better. I am not defending Chain of Vapor, but it is an answer all and if I even still ran it, Chain would certainly make the cut over Claim. Between 7-8 copies of Wispmare and Ancient Grudge and possible an additional Ray of Revelation are all you need. These cards are all you need in the board, and about half the time I cast Grudge its because I was doing the slow dredge to bait a Crypt/Relic and just flipped it. All the while you are protecting the cards in your hand, waiting for that 1 turn when the hate is gone! Thats why I don't like Claim, I think if you want to take up SB slots it better be worth it. Claim doesn't add any new versatility to the board that this deck does not already have. And why would you want to run this over Wispmare, which can't be Duressed out of your hand, doesn't give the opponent life, and can be Dread Returned for further awesomeness; or Ancient Grudge which, can't be Duressed out either unless Leyline is in play, and doesn't even have to be in your opening hand (however small it may be) to deal with the problem artifacts. Both Wispmare and Grudge add consistency that Claim does not.

Hi all!
What do you think about builds with Life From The Loam?
Something like that:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31081
1 Bayou
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Bloodghast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Life from the Loam

As I understand, idea is to reccur lands with Life From The Loam to reccur Bloodghasts.
Also Life From The Loam is another card with dredge. Same Dredge 3 as Darkblast.
Disadvantage is that we need at least two lands to cast Life From The Loam.
But we always have chance to reccur our Bloodghasts while Undiscovered Paradise can easily be buried while dredging.

When Bloodghast came out I tested Life in Dredge and it was awful. You absolutely want rainbowlands for your sideboard anyways so there is no good reason to run duals instead of the usual manabase with 2 Dakmor Salvage to return Bloodghast.

Dredge is kind of a combodeck after all and you don't want stability over a large amount of turns but explosiveness and consistant starting hands. Duals and Loam are not needed for this goal.

The problem with Loam is that you don't see two lands every game. Being able to Raven's Crime them out or hardcast Golgari Grave-Troll is super exciting, but I have not gotten around to testing it yet. I will say that a key is probably being able to play Swamp or Island on turn 1 for your discard spell. Also, without Hedron Crab or some other gas, dredging Loam every turn is a lot worse than dredging Troll. Yeah, sometimes you get to Coliseum on turn 3 and turn 4, but I'm not looking forward to a world where I wish I were dredging Thugs.

Yes, Life From The Loam really seems to be bad idea at least for usual ichorid.

And can somebody answer two questions about sideboard and game 2,3.
1) What we can do against Tormod's Crypt? Ancient Grudge doesn't seem good because opponent can play crypt lately in the game and immediately sac it.
2) What decks/cards Firestorm is used against? Some fat like Tarmogoyf?

Upd.: I understand all about Firestorm :)

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Originally Posted by Osmin

2) What decks/cards Firestorm is used against? Some fat like Tarmogoyf?

Upd.: I understand all about Firestorm :)

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Would you explain it to me? I still don't know against which decks/cards Firestorm is used.

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Originally Posted by Ranarion

Would you explain it to me? I still don't know against which decks/cards Firestorm is used.

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1) Against some big and/or bad creatures, for example Yixlid Jailer, Platinum Angel.
2) Against Goblins or Merfolks. You could kill many little creatures.
3) Against permission decks. If they can counter your discards (e.g. Putrid imp), they can't counter discard through Firestorm.
4) And of course you can use firestorm to make final blow

What we can do against Crypt? If they slowroll it we can therapy it away but that doesn´t always work. I usually try to create a situation where they need both, massremoval AND GY-hoser f.e. a bunch of zombies+Putrid Imp or a big GGT or any other DR-Target. If you get into that mode, it doesn´t matter if they topdeck a crypt/relic. You can as well keep a dredger in hand to start dredging again after they blew your GY. If they drop it early, just slowdredge into Grudge and fuck ´em.

I have been sketching up a list, and this is what i have come up with. I need help for the sideboard (fairly underdeveloped/ unknown meta).

Creatures

4 Golgari Grave-Troll

3 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid

4 Narcomoeba

4 Putrid Imp

4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Tireless Tribe

1 Flame-Kin Zealot

sorceries

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

enchantments

4 Bridge from Below

land

4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 City of Brass

4 Gemstone Mine

2 Tarnished Citadel

1 Undiscovered Paradise


Also, what do people think about River Kelpie?

Fairly standard list. Kelpie was tested, but it was subpar to Sage, and now, even more to Sphinx.

I've been finding Careful Study to be weaker and weaker the more I play with this deck. It really doesn't perform its functions amazingly well (though it performs two), but I guess we'll have to stick to it for now until a one-mana Tolarian Winds comes out.

EDIT: Just realized how broken Contract from Below would be in this deck. A super Tolarian Winds, with the ante being very much manageable because of how cheap the deck is. LOL.

Your list is your own everyone has their own do to the reasons they have, idfk.

My suggestion is to run 4 of every card that increases your game 2/3.

I think every list should have
4 Tireless tribe
4 Putrid imp
4 Cabal therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Careful study
10 Rainbow lands (at least)

Every sideboard should have 4 Ancient grudge.

Also contract from below is the shit.

I want to test Yosei, the Morning Star as DR-traget. It is fat, flying and opponent would have problems dealing with it.

And it does nothing if you don´t have got a sacoutlet. Iona is fatter, the opponent has more trouble dealing with it and it does that all on her own. Srsly considering that dragon ?

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Originally Posted by NQN

And it does nothing if you don´t have got a sacoutlet. Iona is fatter, the opponent has more trouble dealing with it and it does that all on her own. Srsly considering that dragon ?

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Mainly because it was in the deck of the winner of GPT Madrid at Moscow.

I don't like that idea. It has all the problems of any specific DRetrun targets, and simmultaneously it does nothing unless sacrificed.

I'm interested in building (LED-less) dredge and I'm wondering about the lack of Bloodghasts in most of these lists. (I searched the thread, 8 posts mention the word "Bloodghast" and only 2 of those are decklists.) For some reason, I had the impression that if you were building a dredge deck, you either go with LED or Bloodghast+Undiscovered Paradise, but apparently that's not the case. Can anyone explain the reasoning for or against running Bloodghast and which version generally works better? Thanks!

(Also, when you're not running Bloodghasts, do you still want to run Undiscovered Paradise and, if so, do you still want to run all 4?)

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Originally Posted by dyzzy

I'm interested in building (LED-less) dredge and I'm wondering about the lack of Bloodghasts in most of these lists. (I searched the thread, 8 posts mention the word "Bloodghast" and only 2 of those are decklists.) For some reason, I had the impression that if you were building a dredge deck, you either go with LED or Bloodghast+Undiscovered Paradise, but apparently that's not the case. Can anyone explain the reasoning for or against running Bloodghast and which version generally works better? Thanks!

(Also, when you're not running Bloodghasts, do you still want to run Undiscovered Paradise and, if so, do you still want to run all 4?)

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running bloodghast makes you run more lands which in my opinion dilutes the deck too much. If you are not running bloodghast most lists still run at least 2 undiscovered paradise since they poduce any color

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4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
3 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Gemstone Mine

4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Bloodghast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Tireless Tribe

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below


Sideboard
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Blazing Archon
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Wispmare
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
2 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation

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That's how I play it right now and I am very pleased with the results, both on MWS and IRL.

I like the Bloodghast version. It works reasonably well in pre-board games (of course that more conservative builds with four-of Ichorids and Therapies maybe cooperate better with BfB, otoh Bloodghast version sometimes comboes a turn faster) and it fights the hate in g2+3 very resiliently. I won countless games against Leyline or two, multiple Relics, etc., just because post-board I play more of a Black Weenies than Ichorid. The ability of Bloodghast to not only jump outta grave, but also stay in play is worth his weight in gold.
On mana base: Well, not that I play this exact build IRL, I forgot to make the changes in MD. But until now, I had only few serious problems with 4x Undiscovered Paradise. That's why I changed it recently to 3UP+1GM.
What caused me much more problems was the lack of permanent discard outlets. (I hope that everyone knows how the permanent outlet makes it hard for an opponent to play correctly, resp. how it somehow nullifies the Crypt.) I took out one Bloodghast (and therefore one Salvage) and made a place for two Tribes. They not only improve any aggro matchup, but also support the "Black Weenies" plan, as they are both a body and an outlet for the Ghasts.

Sideboard is tweaked to fight the most common hate (most of the times I take just Grudges) and to make some of the less favorable matchups better - e.g. Disenchant effects are not only against Leyline/Crypt, but also against Stax/8Tomb Stompy.
I don't care of instant hate too much - Extirpate is easy to play around and anyone playing a Ravenous Trap is a person that despises Grave.dec and as such, they will also play Leyline and/or Relic, so this is autoloss anyway and I can live with it.

I have question concerning Bloodghasts.
There are two ways to return Bloodghasts:
1) Undiscovered paradise. But it must be in your opening hand, because you usually dredge instead of draw. How often do you have it in opening hand?
2) Dakmor Salvage. Ok, dredge it and play. But only once for every Dakmor Salvage in deck (usually 2), because there are no way to sac it.

So, we have some weak points. How anybody deals with it?