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Scatmanx can you please post your list, im interested in seeing how you fit in the spell snares... furthermore what is the concensuse on huntingpack /krosan grip in the sideboard with 1 trop island main, i guess grip is pretty similar to wipeaway... anyway thinking about picking up this deck so im trying to get my mind grasped around its peices
if you are starting i suggest that during training use the old version (ritzka version) without repeal and without splash than pass to the repeal version (if you don't like my version you can try other) but remember one thing (and this is my opinion and i don't care if others are so good to the point of not even play the deck,) this deck takes time to learn and to adapt to it, take special attentions on rules: the priorities, the stack resolutions etc..
read the first two pages of the thread and practice with the deck, and if you have some doubt about cards interactions ask here or pm some member of the thread sure we will answer you ;)
@dillonkbase: I agree with Seraphus. If you're going to start to play Solidarity now, you should start with the old version. Everyone here plays a different one, but that comes from a lot of testing and playstyle, and from testing trough all cards we discussed here already.
Anyway, to kill your curiosity, I'm testing this:
// Lands
12 [PT] Island (4)
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
// Spells
4 [BD] Impulse
2 [US] Turnabout
3 [TE] Meditate
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [LG] Reset
4 [FE] High Tide (2)
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [IN] Opt
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
2 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [JGC] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [UL] Snap
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [DIS] Vision Skeins
The Spell Snare came basically in the Remand slots, and the 3rd Turnabout (but I've been playing without it for quite some time now...)
I agree with Seraphus on this - start with the Classic list.
This deck takes a long time to learn properly, and it is only once you have a proper grasp of the basic mechanics that you can actually make reasonable decisions about optimizing the deck for your play style. Equally, it takes time to actually develop your play style, and messing about with niche variants before developing that personal touch just muddies the waters.
-Silent Requiem
a little change in plans about my sb after a quick thought on it i was able to see my own stupidity: redirect vs duress don't work so twincast is back...
I've picked up this deck recently and have found it to be nothing but a pleasure to play. I'm always learning something new about this deck, my opponents' decks, and about the game itself... One of the things I find frustrating is playing against CB opponents. Can you please explain more about this "trigger clearing" as it applies to the stack, and how it involves the spell count as well as the storm copies of brain freeze?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
Has anyone experimented with Gigadrowse or some ways to tap out an opponent's land EOT as a measure against Countertop?
I don't play Solidarity, but I understand where Seraphus is heading with clearing triggers. But that basically only works if the Countertop player has limited manipulation with top i.e. limited mana. What you want is to in response to him topping, read his signs on what he has on the top 3 cards of library (knowing that he always has a way to flip top to counter 1cmc spells), and play with the triggers on the stack, and limit his mana options and then make an intelligent decision on what's on top of his library based on how he's been Topping while maintaining all these on the stack. Then at the right time, Brain freeze him to remove the key cards on top of his library to 'fizzle' every CB trigger that was put on the stack.
My only experience with Solidarity is 2 games and playing Pauper High Tide (sorry :( ) but I know Gigadrowse is a key card in winning control/aggro matchups. You can EOT tap their lands out and ignore CBTop engine. They can only stop Gigadrowse once with CBTop since replicate copies will still go off. This will give you a decent chance against a tapped out CBTop player. Gigadrowse is also somewhat relevant against aggro, although it is probably not the best option since Turnabout does the same thing, but sometimes you want to save your Turnabouts to go off.
Just a thought, not sure if it's any contribution (again, I'm not a pro solidarity player but I think I want to pick this deck as a serious deck, winning in response to Scald triggers is just way too fucking sexy considering Scald on paper seems to be the perfect hate card for Solidarity, but it's not :P)
Metalwalker, gigadrowse is too expensive for solidarity, not only in mana but also in effectiveness, meaning compare repeal to gigadrowse: repeal cmc2 draw a card and takes care of cmc1 cards like nacatl, kird ape, lackey, etc... cmc3 it takes care of cb, goyf, cannonist etc and still draw a card. As gigadrowse tapping lands is not really good on cb since we combo out on our op turn...
Farraway, Metalwalker already explain well the situation on how to do it but just have in mind that this only works in your op turn since trigereds of your op have priority to go to stack meaning the solve after ours, in that way the first triggered to solve is brain frezze storm ability then cb triggered on brain freeze "main spell" with that you can remand you own brain freeze and if you have enough mana do it again dividing you combo in different parts is as effective as any other strategy.
I just got a great idea for a white splash. Vanish Into Memory (VIM) is probably the best business spell we've had for a while and completely overlooked. This card was made for Solidarity guys. VIM is half-decent before the combo turn, filtering away unnecessary cantrips and/or lands for combo pieces, or vice versa. If we VIM something like Terravore, Wake Thrasher, KoTR, etc. ie. something big, we have a huge filter and can potentially sculpt a beastly hand. Having access to a 4 mana filter of that kind is potentially game breaking. It has the additional random advantage of stopping a single creature (slowing the clock). This advantage is especially good against Aggro Control decks like Bant and UGw Thresh Variants because they usually attack you with relatively few creatures. Unfortunately these decks also often play Wasteland, making this play less viable.
During the combo turn, its a 4 mana business spell that can potentially draw you many, many cards. Oh my opponent has a 6/6 Terravore (not uncommon against New Horizons)? I just drawed 6 cards for 4. Good deal I'd say. At the very least during the combo turn, its likely to be a psuedo Meditate, draw 3 cards for 4 mana. It has the additional advantage of being great with cards like FoI and AK for those of you (Seraphus) who are dabbling into such graveyard tactics.
Further, a build like this could also support Orim's Chant, which I think is particularly strong considering the current metagame. We ought to expect the most Survival and Storm decks as possible. Given that this is the case, Chant is strong at putting a swift end to a spell chain against combo, and a virtual timewalk (for the clock) and protection spell against Survival, which often lack Wasteland.
Other cards I think we should consider for such a splash include:
Honor the Fallen (great against Ichorid, Reanimator, Vengevine(!))
Intervention Pact (I can see this buying us 2 full turns on occasion. If we prevent X damage on one turn, and then gain X, we ought to have one more turn after paying the upkeep because we basically cancel one creature from doing us damage on that turn and the following turn by gaining X, meaning that we can cantrip with the remaining mana, and then win. This seem like a good way to turn Cunning Wish into a pseudo double timewalk on one creature, provided we can pay 1WW consistently, meaning more MD Tundras)
Patrician's Scorn (great for taking out Counterbalance, potentially for 0. If we first cast Orim's Chant during a turn, I can then combo out protect from CB by resolving this for free, while if VIM is a business spell, it will be very easy to have already played a white spell)
Swift Silence (we are the kings of the stack, 5 mana for a business spell that also protects are combo turn sounds really good to me)
Wing Shards (if we go off in response to an opponent's move to the attack phase, I can see this being very powerful)
Suggested list:
U/w Solidarity
Land - 18
8 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1cc - 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
3 High Tide
3 Orim's Chant
2cc - 12
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Peer Through Depths
1 Brain Freeze
3cc - 7
4 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
4/5 cc - 9
4 Force of Will
3 Turnabout
2 Vanish Into Memory
SB - 15
1 High Tide
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Intervention Pact
1 Swift Silence
1 Orim's Chant
1 Vanish into Memory
1 Patrician's Scorn
2 Honor the Fallen
I'm thinking -1 Turnabout +1 Land. Also, Peer could easily be FoI if it turns out that VIM works well with it. They look savage working together before the combo turn.
There is only 1 Brainfreeze in the maindeck but the added power of VIM should help the deck draw more cards and grab enough resources to Cunning Wish for BF if necessary, or just make a very long spell chain for the win. The deck has plenty of ways of winning post BF, namely just Chanting the opponent during his next turn. Chants serve to protect you both against a clock and protect your spell chain.
Postboard tactics:
Aggro
-1 Force of Will (we need Fog effects, not countermagic)
+1 Orim's Chant
Control
-2 Force of Will (Chants are better here, and Swift Silence is Chant + business for 5 in Solidarity)
+1 Orim's Chant
+1 Swift Silence
Reanimator/Survival/Ichorid
-2 Vanish into Memory (these do nothing against Iona or Vengevines)
+2 Honor the Fallen (remove their graveyard and gain life in the process to lengthen the clock)
Combo
-2 Vanish Into Memory (these do nothing)
+1 Orim's Chant
+1 Brainfreeze
Trick plays:
Cunning Wish-->Patrician's Scorn = destroys multiple enchantments. works well against slower decks that we already beats but its also 4cc making it great against CB. If Cunning Wish resolves, then we are good to go.
Cunning Wish --> Honor the Fallen (a great response to a late Survival, essentially sealing the game if you respond to the trigger at the right time)
Notes:
Swift Silence is insurance against a control opponent like Landstill that you will have the upper hand. Not only does the card produce card advantage but it saves space by acting as both the final business spell to an exchange over control for the stack and the protection spell that ends the conflict. At 5cc, I can see a turtling opponent that is just sitting behind a Standstill losing to a U/w Solidarity player who gets to hit too many land drops.
@Vacrix:
I dislike your idea for some reasons. I will explain them right now:
- playing 4 Tundra makes you much more vulnerable to Wasteland (which is normally just one poor card against Solid.). I am imagining playing against Merfolk or Gobs, GW-Surv. with getting a land blown up, thats just horrible! The time you invest finding another land or getting a land blown up in respnse to a Untapeffect is way too effective against us.
- There is really no need for that Orims Chant (which cant be pitched to FoW btw), Mindbreak Trap is much more flexible (I never lost a match postboard to Staxxx, for example. just board out some cc1 for traps and you have like 8-9 Counters for his 3 Elspeth and 3-4 Armageddon, you cant not loose against that(even it wasnt that hard before :smile:). And this is just an side-effect, never talking about playing against combo or control with that whooping-ass-card).
-Playing Vanish into Memory is just not a good tech I think (I also mentioned that you dropped Cryptic Command in your green-splashed list, because it didnt done enough and it was too expensive for you, Im just sayin'). This card is not required in a Scenario that I faced in all the games ive played. Cryptic Command is here better and more flexible again.
- The sb options you got out of white are just poor; compare Back to Nature/Krosan Grip and Tangle/Moments Peace to your mentioned cards! Those are a lot better! You played those in your list and they are really good as I tested your list. Go back to a green splash, then you need really just need 1 (if you want it bad 2) Dual.
Green offers so much to this deck that it cant be ignored, if you really thinking about splashing a color, I think.
The only reason of splashing white is maybe StP, but I dont see that this is necessary.
At the moment, I can just completely agree to SERAPHUS, Repeal is just one amazing card in Solidarity and I really dont want to miss it after ive tested it. It buys so much time against some decks and besides that, Counterbalance isnt such a big problem with that card.
The things I could just tell to Solidarity-Players atm are: PLAY HUNTING PACK, if you play a splash version!
NOTICE THE FOLLOWING CARDS: CURFEW (Yeah, Show and Tell; Captain Obvios)
RAVENOUS TRAP(also Show and Tell, Dredge)
BACK TO NATURE & M.I.N.D.B.R.E.A.K.T.R.A.P.
PS: Sorry for all that writing big :tongue:, I couldnt help myself, have a nice day folks
Wow. I just played my first few games in casual using Solidarity and I got totally rocked. I played vs Goblin. I went off in 3 of 8 games but often the goblin clock was too fast for me and I wasn't able to find enough answers.
Really had to make hard decisions and often it seems that I keep running out of gas to draw cards with and end up with peeks and opts. I also couldn't go off unless I absolutely had high tide, which sucks. I guess the rest will come with experience.
Against goblins, you usually need to have a High Tide in hand when trying to combo off, since their clock is to fast, and you can't gather enough mana. What you need to do is use your FoW's and Repeals to try to get to turn 4-5, then it should be easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morton_Salt
Just practice more. If you want, ask here for advice if you're wondering you did anything wrong on those situasions you ended up with nothing in your hand.
One of the things was the lack of a first turn FoW to answer his Lackey. If I had it I was in good shape, otherwise he was able to get huge board control. I'll do some more playtesting but it won't be for a while since finals are coming up. I'll be back when they're done though.
Did he play Rishadan Port? They can be very annoying, (if played right he can tap down two lands and also preventing you from getting High tide effect on one land.) especially combined with Vial.
As we are at the Goblin Matchup right here, I wanted to introduce the thought if it is necessary to play Hydroblast in the sideboard. I would like to hear your experiences with that decision.
In the last games Ive played against Gobs the Hydroblast was very nice and helpful but I had the impression that a Echoing Truth or some other bouncers are doing pretty much the same, when not a better job. I really dont want to waste that precious sb-space to those green nosy dudes for such a specific card and I think maindeck Repeal (especially on Turn 1 Lackey, Vial) buys enough time to ensure the combo. What do you think:confused:?
repeal was already common sense (except for Enlightened ones lool)
Tournament ReportI played my first tourney this past weekend with Solidarity and wanted to give a general report and see what everyone might see as mistakes in my play so I can continue to improve with this deck.
Tourney had 25 people with a cut to the top 4 after 5 rounds.
Round 1: R/W Cycling
Game 1 – I didn’t know what I was facing and I’m still not sure I do after I played him. There was never really any pressure on me and I combo-ed on turn 6 finishing him by passing turn back to him
Game 2 – He dropped an early Canonist and chanted me mid combo the first time I went off. I was running out of gas anyways so I did a Brain Freeze for about half his library and kept back some draw and combo-ed about 3 turns later for the rest of his library and passed the turn back to him for the win.
1-0
Round 2: Counterbalance w/ Dreadnought
Game 1 – We have a counter war over his stifle on Dreadnought and he wins. At end of turn, I use the spell count to do a lethal Brain Freeze on turn 5 after combo and finished him with a Words of Wisdom.
Game 2 – He trinket maged/mishra’s factory-ed me to death
Game 3 – We end up going to time and we end up as a draw.
1-0-1
Round 3: Goblins
Game 1 – Turn 1 vial. Turn 2 Lackey countered, vials in Lackey. Turn 3 Warchief et-al. Turn 4, dead.
Game 2 – Turn 1 Lackey. Turn 2 Piledriver, drops Warchief on Lackey. Turn 3 Piledriver, something else. Turn 4 dead. I tried to combo on 3 land and well, that really didn’t go so well.
Really could have used the green splash with Tangle on this one… It was just too fast! Another turn and the land I had in hand would have made the difference.
1-1-1
Round 4: Shelldock/Show-and-Tell
Game 1 – I attempt combo before I know what I’m playing and end up triggering Emrakul a bunch of times… Rats. I end up Stroking him to death many turns later after a Doomsday.
Game 2 – Down to turns as time expired and he manages an Emrakul on turn 2 or 3 of turns and I scoop.
I was really at a loss during this game and didn’t know what to do… I know I had a singleton Ravenous trap in the board, but what is a person supposed to do when there are 3 Emrakul’s maindeck? Any advice you have on this one would be appreciated.
1-1-2
Round 5: Enchantress
I’m out of contention, but I keep on anyways to learn the deck more
Game 1: Combo on turn 6 but he has a Words at War in play and keeps preventing himself from drawing cards and eventually shocks me to death. Very sad. Very, very sad. I should have read the card better and this loss is totally on me. I needed to wish for something to bounce it and I’d have been fine. I had plenty of mana and went overboard on the Brain Freeze and had I shown some restraint, I might have been able to pull this one out by bouncing it.
Game 2: Combo on turn 6 bouncing a Runed Halo and get him with a wished for Vision Skeins.
Game 3: Totally locks me out the way enchantress does. If I had the green splash, I really could have used a Back to Nature or even a reverent Silence and totally broken this game open.
1-2-2
Overall, I really enjoyed playing this deck! With a little more patience and experience, I really think I could have made top 4 easily. When you sit down to play this deck, you have so many options at every turn. I love the toolbox feel to it with the wishes and the ability to win games out of nowhere!
The problem I always seemed to face was getting them to draw the card on their turn, especially in the pre-combat main phase. Waiting for them to draw on their next turn just seems like a hope and a prayer after all the work I’ve done with the Brain Freeze combo, especially if they have lethal on the board. I think I’m going to add more draw for my opponent in hopes of improving that lost feeling at the end of the combo. Maybe once I get some more experience, I’ll feel more comfortable but in the mean time, I’m going to use that crutch to lean on.
I went with the mono blue build because I couldn’t find any Tropical Islands or Tangles before tourney. I think I learned a lot about the deck, but there were multiple times when I kept wishing for those green cards and could have won games easily because of them.
As far as rules and interactions go, I have 2 questions. First if I do have a green splash and I tap my Trop for green and I have already played a High Tide, does it also produce a U mana since it is also an island? Secondly, if I Brain Freeze, Remand the original, and Brain Freeze again, do all the previous storm copies add to the storm count on the second?
My Deck:Lands
14 Islands
4 Misty Rainforest
Dig
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Peer Through Depths
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
Combo
3 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
Counter
2 Remand
4 Force of Will
“Toolbox”
2 Brain Freeze
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Flash of Insight
2 Snap
3 Cunning Wish
Sideboard
1 High Tide
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Snap
2 Repeal
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Hurkyll’s Recall
1 Meditate
1 Wipeaway
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Vision Skeins
1 Echoing Truth
1 Turnabout
1 – I can’t recall off the top of my head…
If I had to do it all over again, I’d move the Snaps to the SB and bring the Repeals main. My local meta is crawing with creatures so I thought Snap would be better. In a wider meta, Repeal is far stronger. I brought them in for most matches I think. I’d also consider one less Turnabout and one more Peer Through Depths. I don’t know where I’ll add the draw I mentioned earlier, but likely I’ll drop an Opt for another Words of Wisdom.
Thanks all for contributing so much to this thread and Solidarity community already. I would have never thought of playing a deck such as this if it weren’t for me stumbling across this thread and seeing the enthusiasm for the deck!
If anyone has comments or critiques, I’d be happy to hear them. Thanks much!
I've decided this to be a deck that I want to truly master. I've goldfished the deck a couple of times but now I think I want to sit down and learn the tricks in and out. I play Pauper Solidarity as my primary deck and it's awesome. One of my favorite quotes in MTG is "Island, go" and I think Solidarity is the deck that suits this quote so very well.
As a starter, what are the bad matchups? I was under the impression that TES, Counterbalance, Gobs are the bad ones, what about Discard/Rock/Hymns? I feel that there's quite a number of inherent unfavorable matchup, but other than that this deck should stomp on most decks, and with a good mastery, be able to win its weaker matchups. But getting an idea would be a good start for me to get more practice against those decks.
The last time I played Solidarity, I tested UW version with 3 Chants MD. Quite horrible since drawing Chant while comboing leads to fizzle. Although an optimized list could prove useful. I did play the deck like 3 years back, using 3 Chants and 1 Decree of Justice (Cycled) as an alternative win-condition. I was fine with it with the exception that Chants/Decree sometimes led to bad draws while comboing. I think this deck could immediately become tier if Frantic Search is unbanned. Who knows, with MTutor gone, combo is somewhat neutered, bringing FS back would balance out the loss of MTutor maybe.
@farraway:
Nice to read your report. This is a quite tricky deck, but don't give up on it.
->Emrakul: When you see the 1st Emrakul hitting the GY, if you have spare mana/cards, you can
a)Remand your Brain Freeze, and use it again. Then do this how many times you can. If you manage to get them all, then you Wish for Trap, anre remove his GY.
b) BrainFreeze him and, with the first Emrakul trigger on the stack, Stroke him to death.
->Enchantress: You should not lose this one. There were no need for the G splash. You just needed a bounce.
-> Goblins: When they lead with hands like that, it's hard to stop them... Repeal could be useful when you were on the draw.
->Tropical Island will produce UG if you casted a High Tide, and want to produce G with the land.
-> Deck: That's an ok list. I don't think there's need for MD Snap or Stroke, or Words os Wisdom.
And you should run 4 High Tides or 4 Cunning Wish (or both), but never 3/3. You want to maximize your odds of finding High Tide.
I've been watching this thread and the springtide thread as I continue to work trades for the cards I need to complete the build. Obviously there is alot of obvious similarities and differences, and although both primers address it rather shortly and end up at the same opinion (there deck is better), I was wondering what the people playing both decks really thought. What about a meta-game pushes solidarity over tide and vice versa. I am not asking about the head to head matchup, I am talking as what makes one a better plan than the other against the game at large.
Thanks