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I posted this somewhere but I have been having alot of luck with infest in the sideboard, sereniy for affinity/enchantress/mud, but infest early and often keeps creature counts down and coupled with spot removal has been doing a great job of keeping the tribes at bay.
I totally understand where you're coming from, Damion. For me, they're pulling their weight nicely in my Stax and Aggro infested meta (literally, 50% of the people here have Stax built, so awkward).
I think Infest is a great card, and really only hurts our Bobs. Although it does becomes terrible after 2 Lords, I think if you're meta is all Zoo and Tribal, Infest seems like a one-sided Wrath in some cases. Let us know how your Infesting goes, Lavafrog.
-Matt
Now that Jace and SFM are banned in Standard, we can run both by just tweaking the manabase, since costs will plummet! (Kidding about Jace :P)
-Matt
Anyone running Engineered Explosives vs. Pernicious Deed in the board? When played against us, Deed is devastating. Obviously a Deed timed in our favor is much more ideal, but it seems like it frequently ends in card disadvantage for us. Whereas EE can pinpoint and thus mitigate self-inflicted damage. Thoughts?
I'm actually thinking about that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seems Good
Pernicious deed has killed a lot of my mox diamonds. But i do love the fact that I can deed for 5. It is rather difficult to engineer explosive for more than 3
anyways. how's my deck.
[DECK]
Creatures (14)
1x dryad Arbor
3x tarmogoyf
4x dark confidant
4x knights of the reliquary
2x qusali pridemage
instant (4)
4x swords to plowshares
sorcery (11)
3x green sun's zenith
4x hymn to tourach
4x thoughtseize
others (9)
3x sensei's diving top
2x maelstrom pulse
3x mox diamond
1x vindicate
lands (23)
1x bojuka bog
1x forest
1x maze of ith
1x plain
1x swamp
1x savannah
1x karakas
1x scrubland
3x bayou
4x wasteland
1x volrath's stronghold
3x marshflats
4x verdant catacombs
sideboard
1x null rod
1x thrun the last troll
4x extirpate
1x pernicious deed
1x ethersworn cannonist
2x enlightened tutor
1x gaddock teeg
1x tormod's crypt
2x pithing needle
1x phyrexian metamorph
[/DECK]
There is also to consider the added conveinance of on occassion being able to crack the EE on the turn cast as opposed to Deed which typically requires you give the opponent a turn to answer it. My meta has a higher number of Enchantress than most metas as well as an increasing amount of aggro (tribal/Zoo) so Deed tends to be much more invaluable a card as I'm willing to sac several of my permanants if it means obliterating their board position.
It really just boils down to meta and personal preference. I'm more of a high risk/high rewards kind of guy and I typically don't mind losing Moxes/1-2 creatures to Deed. Overall, however, I would say EE is a much better fit for the deck as it gives us a more direct threat answer rather than blindly hoping that resetting part of the board will work to our advantage more so than the opponent's.
Forlorn Egoist
When I played with 3x 'Vindicate' effects I was really wanting the 4th. I think it's a good effect and without the ability to counter some of the other things that are played (i.e. enchantments, artifacts, Jace...) you really want to capitalize where you can on the flexibility of your other cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
I'd also look for more creatures/effects for your Zenith. I'm not suggesting you have to all play 1-of's but, it's not a bad idea to give it some more room to operate. Limiting what you're using your tutor for is limiting how useful it can be for you.
The downside of that is that, if you don't draw that creature, it may not be the one you wanted. So, if you do decide to diversify, make sure the options you choose are creatures you will be mad at drawing.
I still think 4 GY hate is too much.
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As far as EE vs Deed, choose your own poison: Man-lands or Planeswalkers. Deed can also hit for higher numbers but, it may not matter *I've only Deeded 1 Iona off the board and I'm not intending to have to do that again. EE is faster though (@0=2, @1=3, @2=4, etc...). Beware though, both are weak to Grip and not having the mana up to use them.
In my "rock" adventures I have always considered ee in the realm of vindicate effects, comparable to vindicate and pulse. It was primarily used to kill one drops, vials/lackeys/nacatls/other bad shit, on turn 2 and also keep combo from dropping goblin tokens/fast mana on the board to play around discard. Finally, EE also served as an almost guaranteed counterbalance destruction tool, when that was an issue....
I recently took the card out of my junk lists due to it being "unneeded", deed is more of a late game changer as it usually clears the board of all non tombstalker creatures/ permeates. Looking back on the rock lists of old deed is the card that establishes control where no other card can.
The choice should depend on speed of the format and style of your deck. Slower more controlish-deed, faster aggroish build- ee/vindicate
When your EE actually kills a Jace against BUG Landstill, let me know (it usually gets Deeded away if it's placed early :P). I'll agree, sometimes you do want pinpoint destruction on X=Y. Most of the time, though, you'll want to take out everything below 3, or everything below 2. Getting rid of Manlands is also sweet. Deed allows you to change the board in a much more devastating way. Yes, sometimes you'll get your own stuff, but it depends how much you want to change to the board. EE against Folk can be a bit awkward. Taking out all their 2's is fine, but what about their 3's? etc.
Again, as someone said, it's preference. In a slower meta especially, I'd rather blow up the world. Or, you could play 2 EE in the main, and when they're no good, side in 2 Deed.
-Matt
I've run an EE or two in my board from time to time (my current configuration is 2 Deed main, 1 side). It has usually been good for me, especially a 1/1 split with it and Deed in the board, but I tend towards Deed over it, despite EE's advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seems Good
You really think 4 GY hate is too much? I am always running into dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
Any suggestions on how to add another vindicate/pulse or other creatures?
Matt, If you're trying to deed a planeswalker off it's got to be in the same turn, without passing priority. So yeah, "Good Luck" But, we do hear stories of people Deeding Tombstalker's off the baord (I've personally deeded an Iona!) So it can happen. Just doesn't happen all the time.
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Avatar, I would cut a Hymn for a 'Vindicate' effect. I hate drawing Discard late game so I don't like having more than 7 at any time. I feel it's a good number that's consistent enough to not be the bad draw, most of the time.
If Dredge is causing an issue, Spore Frog. It's tutorable, Fogs and removes bridges. That means that the creatures they removed to Ichorid weren't turned into Damage. They're limited in how many times they can do that. You can also force the mill with your stronghold by looping the Frog.
Just remember to aggressively use Swords on Ichorids. Them just not having them is great. And You're usually looking at Narco's and Ichorid's against them... sometimes the Theropies are a good call as well. Landing a knight can be a big deal. Especially if you start trying to loop the frog. You can also fetch your bog or sac your arbor to it.
Looking at it more, you have SO MUCH against them. I've got to run now but I'll try and explain later.
Let's put it this way.
With my 2 GSZ, 2 Teegs, 2 Qasali, 3 E tutor, 3 Deeds and 2 pieces of artifact based hate, I've never lost a postboard game against Dredge. Ever.
-Matt
Wow...really. so i'm going overboard against themQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I think cutting Hymn is a mistake, I'd cut a Thoughtseize before cutting a Hymn. Hymn is one of the most powerful spells in the deck and one of the few ways we have to generate actual card advantage.
It depends how much you want to crush them. I have tons of Dredge, and I like to beat up on people who don't play real decks. Die Dredge! Die, die!
Wheel of Sun and Moon is an absolute beating, as it means they can't flashback their Rays and Grudges. Coupled with Crypt, Deed, and Teeg, they can't fight through it all. Qasali shines here because you can target your Top, spin Top, sac Qasali, and remove their Bridges. 'Tis the shit.
Again, how badly do you want to beat them? Extirpate also works double duty on Landstill, so don't count it out. Extirpating Factory/Jace is game over. Extirpate should be, at most, a 3 of, and you should couple it with incidental hate, like Teeg (stops Dread Return) Deed/EE for tokens, and a creature that can be sacced to remove Bridges, and Crypt. So perhaps:
2 Extirpate
1-2 Crypt, 0-1 Spellbomb/Wheel of Sun and Moon
1-2 Teeg
If that's in your 75, you have a good shot at it.
-Matt
I should lower my extirpate count to 2? The extirpate i have really isn't used against dredge, but more of BUG landstill. what if i board like thisQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
sideboard
1x null rod
1x thrun the last troll
3x extirpate
1x pernicious deed
1x ethersworn cannonist
2x enlightened tutor
2x gaddock teeg
1x tormod's crypt
2x pithing needle
1x engineered explosive
My board at the moment is very similar.
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate (could be 3)
1 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb/Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Teeg
2 Thrun
But, I want to run 3 Extirpates in the board, so I can either move 1 Teeg to the main, replacing a Deed, or cut Rod. I cut Cannonist since I don't expect much combo, but it's so good against so many decks, I'm sad to see it go. I wouldn't mind a Thrun main, either. Ugh, so many choices.
-Matt
you are a brave man to not run any needles.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
What would I needle?
1) 43 Lands: Maze of Ith and Wasteland are legitimate targets, true. But, I'd rather have Extirpate in this slot.
2) Painter-Grindstone: True, it's good here, but I've also got removal, Grip, and Extirpate against Intuition. It'll be rough beats for them.
3) BUGStill: Extirpate and Grip are good, as is Vindicate. Needle would also be good, but you can't have everything. Plus, Deed, Mental Misstep, and other cards can be rough. Again, it's good here, I'll give you that.
4) U/w Landstill: I'd say it's not as good here if they're running Repeals. That just hurts.
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So yes, true, it's good against Jace, but you have to land and stick it. I'd prefer to get there with Thrun, Extirpate, and Teeg. The 43 Lands matchup is worse, but with more Extirpates, gets better.
As well, what do you cut for Needles? You auto-lose to Affinity if you don't run Deed/Rod; your combo matchup is abysmal if not for Cannonist, Rod, Extirpate, and Teeg; Thrun is your win-con against Uw and partly against BUGstill; Teeg is great against tons of stuff, including Natural Order, Jace, Stax, etc.; you'll die to Dredge if you don't run at least 6 pieces of hate and virtual hate (tutors are virtual hate); you need Deeds to gain advantage against Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk.
To me, my back is up against the wall and I don't have enough slots as is. To me, Runed Halo, Needle, and Cannonist were the weakest slots in my experience at the GP. Extirpate would have been the tits, but I want both Cannonist and Extirpate.
-Matt