[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

I also ran a list closely resembling Arianrhod’s build. I just had bad luck with my matchups although I got to play some epic games.
I cut kokusho and something else for a 4th deed and 3 stp seeing allot of merfolk on friday. That deed was really awesome. I could even tell when I drew the exact 4th since its the only foreign one I have. In almost all cases kokusho would have left me dead on the board where the deed saved me.
But for some reason I just couldnt find a comfortable wincondition in time to close the game when I had finally stopped my opponents onslaught.

r1 belcher
he turn 1 killed me with me on the play. game 2 I therapied him for LED on turn one hitting 1. on my turn 2 I flashbacked therapy on something while saccing my explorer. I extirpate his LEDs and pass. He proceeds to make 12 goblins. I draw cranial extraction and remove his belchers and extirpate his empty the warrens. I take 12 and need to rip one of my 12 outs but fail.

r2 bant
i finally loose game 1 after a really long time because he found a 3rd knight of the reliquary and countering my sun titan. game 2 went to time :/

r3 rifter
epic game with a really nice guy. He chose to play rifter since its a cycling deck and he cycled to the event from amsterdam with a fiend. again it took me forever to find something althoug he was never really in the game. But he killed allot of my guys with hardcast slice and dice/cycle s+d (killing BSA) Eventually I win in turn 3 of extra time.

r4 pox
hard matchup. game 1 I mul to 5 and get manascrewed. game 2 I get sigarda in play and ride it to victory. game 3 starts with 5 minutes on the clock.

r5 kinda d+t with maindeck glowriders and thorn of amethyst, SFM and Mangara
g1 manascrew, g2 wreck his board with deed, drop sigarda and win, g3 go to time with him gaining allot of life (going to 45). I get BSA and sun titan with deed in the grave but fail to kill him in time because he copied my BSA with metamorph.

r6 maverick
g1 I was never in it. g2 I go to 1 life before I find a deed to 8 for 1 him. drop BSA, sun titan and win. g3 go to 1, blow deed again, drop BSA but this time he had STP and we go time when neither of us can find something to win with

After that I was really exhausted and descided to drop to see how the rest of my friends were doing. one made it to day 2 with 1 bye and eventually placed 63th.

Now I just hope they will unban Mind Twist next round since I managed to get my hands on a Beta Mind Twist (fine condition) for just €5 :D

The more controlling build of Rector doesnt really seem to suit my playstyle too well eventhough on paper it looks like one of the stronger builds so I'm back to a bit more aggro oriented builds. Smash face with Grave Titans.

My report is up, let me know what you think of it! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...023#post660023

@Viridia -- if you were going to basically copy my list with a few slight changes, definitely should have ran the Sun Titan over the Kokusho IMO. I mean, Kokusho is good and all, but Sun Titan is far and away the better 6-drop. Also, did you just never Rector for Nightmare? Surprised you didn't really use it -- it isn't just for Kokusho. Looping Eternal Witnesses and Thragtusk with it is just fine in most matchups. Especially E.Wit -- 2G for a regrowth every turn is back-breaking for 90% of legacy decks.

I have a Deadguy deck locally -- you learn a few tricks over time, but it's still a match that almost always goes to time. I don't think you could have done much there, although I would have never boarded out the Arena in that matchup. Arena's a serious trump in attrition mirrors.

What did you end up actually doing vs the Nic-Fit mirror? Moat stops Thrun, as does Sigarda and Baneslayer. Just couldn't find any gas? Does seem like he had a lot of things that are good in the mirror, though, as you said.

Using your Curse with your opponent's Humility in r3 is straight up hilarious. I love it. On a scale of 1-10, how tilted was he?

Gobs and Zoo are like Christmas for this deck.

@XdeckX --

Sucks that you hit Belcher round 1 =(

Bant can be a pretty awkward matchup, like Deadguy -- it can just go, and go, and go.

Rifter dude sounds awesome.

Pox isn't usually too bad - it all revolves around how many Explorers you have/can find, and Sigarda. Also, they hate having their hand screwed with -- they'd much rather be on the other side of that.

Have you considered the Red version with Burning Wish? That sounds like it might suit your playstyle a little more.

@Nihilis -- I don't really have much to say about the straight G/B version, sadly, although I'm sure Qweerios will give you some good feedback whenever he drops by.

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While everyone else was having fun at Ghent, I was playing at Mythic Games in Elmira. They're kind of a Jupiter Games-lite....smaller crowd, but all of the ringers from Jupiter show up, so it's still a really high-skill event. I played what is I'm sure going to be a controversial Red list (but I got 2nd with it, so hear me out =D )

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Wood Elves
2x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Scapeshift

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Pernicious Deed

4x Taiga
2x Bayou
3x Badlands
1x Stomping Ground
5x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//SB
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Scapeshift
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Tsunami
1x Innocent Blood
1x Thoughtseize
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Damnation
1x Reanimate
1x Regrowth
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Reforge the Soul

Yep. 0 fetchlands. But it worked.

I was working on the deck Thursday night, because I was fairly sure I was going to play it on Saturday. Mythic is known for having an absurdly high amount of Maverick in its meta -- last time I was up there, it was literally 2/3 of the room! As such, I didn't want to play the white version since I haven't really fixed that yet, and I also didn't want to play BUG because it's still a little too untested. I'd at least played the Red version in a few events before, and I figured that hey, it has a strong enough combo finish that if I get paired vs some random decks, it won't matter. So I was tinkering with the manabase, which is something I've never actually been happy with for this particular version. It needs a lot of mountains to make Valakut work, but then there's never enough room for sufficient basics, fetches, the Two Towers, etc. So I decided to try it without fetches, and see what happened. To better facilitate this, I upped Wood Elves to a 3-of. Much to my surprise, it worked admirably in goldfishing. Then I took it on Cockatrice and tested with some locals -- Cockatrice is notorious for having somewhat poor randomization matrices, which usually means everyone gets mana flooded to hell and back -- no problems there, either. I decided to try it and see what happens.

I wanted a 2nd Stomping Ground where the 3rd Mountain ended up being....but the store didn't have one, and neither did my friend who plays Animar EDH -- he had it proxied!

Reforge the Soul was a test, which never actually got used, so it's going to get cut. Theoretically it's fine, but practically speaking, it was pretty meh. I'm probably going to test a Night's Whisper there instead.

R1: Tony with Deadguy.

Tony and I live like 5 minutes from each other, and we seriously play each other first in every freaking event we go to. It's dumb. Game one he makes a fast Baneslayer after some disruption. I can't find anything to answer it, and I just die. Yes, he stole that technology from me. Game two I come out with a ton of ramp, and Scapeshift him on like turn 5 for more life that he's got....conveniently 1-2 turns before death, and 1 turn before a baneslayer hit which would have made my Valakut math a lot more painful. Game three he sadly mulls to 5 and he's never in it....I just goldfish him on turn 4.

R2: White Staxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I had seen one of my car playing vs him the round before, so I knew what he was on going in. I figured I had a good matchup since I could just ramp ramp ramp Deed lololol, but I definitely forgot that Armageddon was a card...

Game one took 35 minutes. No joke. He was a very slow, deliberate player, and while he wasn't really slow-playing ie judge call, he definitely took his time. Which, while playing Stax, that adds up. He made a quick Chalice@1, but then failed to make more land drops, and kind of stared at me for a while. I Zenithed out an Explorer and sacced him to Tower for a Huntmaster. He dropped a Ghostly Prison and a Crucible, while I drew a Maelstrom Pulse. Now, I had a choice -- I could either go aggro, blowing up the Prison and just punching as much as I could, or I could go control and nuke the Crucible. I opted for aggro, and beat him down to 9ish before he dropped a Knight of the Reliquary. He'd been wastelocking my duals, but huzzah for playing a deck with 10 basic lands. I ended up on the flipper plan -- switching between 0 spells and 2, to shock him with Huntmaster every other turn. I zenithed for a 2nd Huntmaster somewhere along the way, and at one point I had Ravager Ravager to his Knight, while he sat at like 1 life. I tanked for a second, remembered that Stax plays Maze of Ith, played two spells to flip back, and passed. He Knighted for Tabernacle EoT, untapped, tanked, Armageddoned, and played Tabernacle back with Crucible. Well fuck.

Later that day, I found out that he hadn't bought the Maze of Ith for the deck yet, and if I'd just swung I would've won. Awkward.

Game two I come out stupid fast into a turn 2 Thragtusk. He O-Rings it. I silently laugh maniacally as I pulse his O-Ring and proceed to smash face. He blows up the world, but doesn't have Crucible or Tabernacle this time -- he was hoping to sick rips the Tabernacle so as not to die, I think. He doesn't get there. We look at the clock, which has like 15 seconds left on it, shrug, and draw.

R3: Sam Black's Zombardment.

I was pretty interested going in to this round. I'd never played against the deck, and I wasn't sure I was scared of it. Deed is kind of a card, after all.

Game one, he showed me why this thing is a deck. I still won, but it was scary as hell. I led off turn one with Valakut. He just gave me a look and asked if he was being trolled (note that we've played before, and I was playing the Rector build). I shrugged, and passed back. He made some zombies while I made some lands. I deeded away his everything when he had a Bombardment and like 3 duders (two of which were Gravecrawlers. Ergh). He rips a Carrion Feeder, which I have to Deed away again, or I'm going to get punched for like 12 next turn. He spins his wheels for a few turns while I make more land drops and build up a board presence with Broodmate. He drops Lingering Souls, a Blood Artist, and some more shit. I Burning Wish for Scapeshift and kill him without having to attack into Artist.

Game two is a slaughter. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I know he was never really in it. I seem to recall him keeping a really slow, durdly hand, while I had a fast Scapeshift.

R4: I need to win here to be able to ID the last round. The gods reward me with Merfolk. This was actually my first time playing vs the new Fish decks in a tournament....Master definitely adds a lot to it.

Game one was an absolute massacre in my favor. He makes some fishmen, I burning wish for Damnation and kill them all. He has two Wastelands and I have a Valakut in hand, so I bait him with two dual lands, which he blows up. I E-Wit for Damnation, then Burning Wish for Tsunami as I don't have quite enough for Valakut yet. He has like 8 islands, which all go boom. Unfortunately he did have a Vial on 2, but it still really crippled him. He Vialed in a Master, which eventually got Damnationed once he added a second merfolk to his roster. Then I Scapeshifted for like 36.

Game two was much closer. He mulled to 5, but he had a double Mutavault into Master keep. I could answer his creatures, but the Mutavaults were causing issues. I REBd his first Master, and then I believe I also REBd a Coralhelm later on. He was representing lethal, so I had to draw off of Top and Zenith'd out Thragtusk. He submerged it (lol), and swung in. I traded the beast off with something, replayed Tusk, and bought more time. Finally with an empty board and an empty hand, but like 10 lands in play, I ripped Scapeshift off the top of my deck like a champ and my mountains jizzed in his face for upwards of 30.

R5: ID

Top8: Death and Taxes.

I was profoundly less worried about this matchup than I am when I play the white version. He makes some durdles, including a Revoker on Deed, and tries to Port the ramp deck. I go nuts with land drops, Scapeshift, and trolololo all the way home. Game two he has an obnoxious start with Vial, where he vials in Revoker on my Top, so I don't have a chance to respond. This slows my development by a turn, as he'd Wasted my first green source. I had another one floating on top of my deck, which I was planning to draw off Top, Therapy, drop green -> Explorer -> Therapy. I shrug off his disruption and ramp anyway, while he makes a Mom and a Serra Avenger with a Jitte on it. I make a Primeval Titan, who brings me to 4 mountains with a Valakut in play. Next turn I drop a mountain for turn, swing, and my colorless lands kill his Mom and his Revoker. He uses Jitte to kill my Titan with his Avenger, and then angry mountains happen and he dies quickly.

Top4: Virudgiris's RUG list

While looking over my decklist before starting, my opponent noted softly to himself, "Thragtusk? is that even a real card?" You can probably guess what's going to happen here....

I lead off with an Explorer while he does the RUG thing and sits there sculpting and waiting to be annoying. He makes a pair of Goyfs, and I keep staring at him with that Explorer. My hand was spicy, but my deck was refusing to draw me a single land -- I'd had two in my opener. He was too scared of my Explorer to swing, so I had a G - Moat on my side. Eventually I found a Therapy, which set off the Explorer, when let me play a Wood Elves, which chumped. Then two more Wood Elves, which also chumped. Then a Pulse for the Goyfs, which meant that the Ooze that had joined the team was still coming. I had a string of like 6 turns where I just kept making chumpers every turn while sitting at like 4 life. Eventually I GSZ'd for Thragtusk, then I finally hit a Burning Wish for a Scapeshift and won with like 48 damage on the stack.

Game two was much more of a blowout in my favor. My opponent was looking really tilted, and I don't think that helped things for him. I don't remember much of this game, but I know it was quick, compared to the long, drawn-out affair of the first game.

Finals: Metalworker

This wasn't even a match, it was just a slaughterfest. He went like turn 1 Chalice for 1, turn two Metalworker, turn 3 Karn -> eat your forest. I just scooped.

Game two was another Chalice on 1, a Revoker on Deed, a Rishadan Port while I couldn't find ramp, and then eventually a Wurmcoil ftw. I also durped hard here and blew my first Wish on a Thoughtseize when he'd just played Chalice on 1 the previous turn. Blargh. This is basically unwinnable anyway, so whatever. The only way to win vs that deck is to go nuts with ramp and then Scapeshift FTW -- with any other hand, you just die.

Top 8 had prize split and were just playing for invitational points, so I walked out with 125 credit, some of which got used on a sexy Japanese pack-foil Cabal Therapy (my second!). There definitely need to be some tweaks here, but overall I'm very pleased with how it played.

And for everyone who says that Valakut is unnecessary and win-more, try it. It won me a full 75% of my games, and a good number of them were literally games I couldn't have won any other way. PFire builds are all well and good, but IMO Valakut is head-and-shoulders above it. Having an I-win button is not to be underestimated.

Also, Wood Elves for MVP. It's so freaking sexy to tap out for a Wood Elves, grab a Forest or a dual untapped, and then use that land to spin Top EoT.

I'll be back to the white version for my local tomorrow night and for another event at a local store on Saturday. Although things are subject to change, I've used the open slot main (which was a Garruk Relentless that did nothing but disappoint me) to move the Angel of Despair maindeck, and then I'm testing 2x Mindcensor in the sideboard. I'm not sure how the Angel will work maindeck, but I want to try it. The original thought of using her in the board vs Sneak/Show didn't turn out to be a great one, since they pretty much refuse to Show and Tell vs the Rector version anyway postboard.

@Arianrhod: I acutally traded/purchased the missing cards for the scapeshift nicfit as that was basically the only build I had not completed.
Perhaps I will run a GB aggro list with 3 Abyssals first. I've been wanting to try that as well...

I put a GBu list together for sunday but decides against playing anything since I didnt feel like playing 8/9 rounds in the €1500 legacy tournament nor did I want to couch up €12 to play 8 man single elimination for a Force of Will.
Got to test it against RUG and Zombi Bombardment. It was fun to play with although I played like a complete dumbass. I was tired from the entire weekend and it was all just for fun anyway.

Regarding Pox... I just hate that matchup because I hate loosing lands which prevent me from playing my biggies. My opponent didnt really have the best build (I never saw Sinkholes) but was running The Rack which were kinda annoying (dealing allot in doubles and redirecting damage to Elspeth is also bad)

Right now I also have Lands.dec completed so I might play that in a tournament/FNM for a change.

The Rifter dude was really awesome. He had a list for things he wanted to do with the list throughout the tournament. Stuff like hardcasting Slice and Dice and hardcasting Eternal Dragon. I got to help him out in that regard by providing loads of lands :)

Can't blame you RE not doing side events. Especially if it wasn't a win-a-box, but win-a-Force. That seems less good.

Lands is hilarious to play, as long as there's a lot of dual lands in your area. I built lands once as well to mess around with....then I realized that my meta is full of decks that play a lot of basic lands (gee, who do I have to blame for that, I wonder =_=). Oh well.

Screw the Rack. Card is crazy obnoxious. It's always irritating to realize that you're just never going to cast your top-end creatures. But if you make that realization and board them out, you should be fine.

I've never liked Abyssal in the history of ever. I mean, you're welcome to try it, and maybe it'll suit your playstyle, but I've always thought it was just awful.

Also, apparently, according to this thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...082#post660082

I wasn't the only one playing Nic Fit Red this weekend and doing well with it. Anyone here have any idea what the list looks like, or are we on the "wait for the TO to post things" plan?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@Viridia -- if you were going to basically copy my list with a few slight changes, definitely should have ran the Sun Titan over the Kokusho IMO. I mean, Kokusho is good and all, but Sun Titan is far and away the better 6-drop. Also, did you just never Rector for Nightmare? Surprised you didn't really use it -- it isn't just for Kokusho. Looping Eternal Witnesses and Thragtusk with it is just fine in most matchups. Especially E.Wit -- 2G for a regrowth every turn is back-breaking for 90% of legacy decks.

I have a Deadguy deck locally -- you learn a few tricks over time, but it's still a match that almost always goes to time. I don't think you could have done much there, although I would have never boarded out the Arena in that matchup. Arena's a serious trump in attrition mirrors.

What did you end up actually doing vs the Nic-Fit mirror? Moat stops Thrun, as does Sigarda and Baneslayer. Just couldn't find any gas? Does seem like he had a lot of things that are good in the mirror, though, as you said.

Using your Curse with your opponent's Humility in r3 is straight up hilarious. I love it. On a scale of 1-10, how tilted was he?

Gobs and Zoo are like Christmas for this deck.

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Well, i almost never had any need for it, or even the possibility to do cool tricks with the Recurring Nightmare. I considered it everytime i could get it with Rector, but it just never seemed worth it.

I boarded out the Arena's simply because of how fast my live can drop when he's getting a fast Batterskull or Jitte online, i actually ended Game 3 on 4 life (doing not much else then chain chumping the Batterskull)

Against the Mirror i just never got the Moat online. He seemed to be drawing an answer to everything i did, when i managed to get a Sigarda to block the Thrun he topdecked a Zenith -> Sigarda -> Legend Rule.

Also, the Esperblade player really didnt do much else then sigh all the time :P

Edit: About Sun Titan, i just don't know if it's worth it, considering you need to make 2 free slots to properly be able to play it, i'm considering adding a 3rd Baneslayer as noone actually seems to be able to answer them, besides from StP.

I played GBw at the GP and went 3-3-drop.

I played Arianhords lists with little tweaking:
-1 Fierce Empath
-1 kokusho
-1 Phyrexian Arena
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Darkblast
+3 Lingering Soul

R1: Elves
1-2: He topdecked Glimpse one turn before i could finish him

R2: Sneak and Show (Won against him at a GPT the day before)
I have 3 Therapys, rip his hand off and can go with Rector->Humility the next turn if I draw a land.
He just draws a card (lands+Ponder in hand), ponders for Show and Tell+Emrakul and I don't find a land.

The other games were not that awesome ;)

But MVP all the time was Lingering Soul!
It is such a great card. What? It's not that great lategame, because cc5 for 4 power flying is not enough? Well of course, but good luck to get there against Merfolk, Maverick or Goblins.
Round 2 or 3 Lingering Soul + Flashback or flachback next round is so much better than just 1 big giant against 3-4 creatures on the other side of the battlefield. Also you can cast Lingering Soul one turn earlier most of the time.

It's so damn unnecessary that your tokens die, if you blow up Deed, because you wipped to board anyways and Soul could have helpep you, to get there.

Hey guys. This is my first posting on here but I have been lurking for a bit. I havent been playing for more than 2 or 3 months in legacy so I am still a bit green. I first started this deck modeled after Durwards BG list and am now trying out my own thing. Well I have trouble against control so I figured splashing red would be the best color splash to fight them. So here's my current list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Grave Titan
1 Dragon Broodmate
1 Eternal Witness
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Durress


Still a bit raw and I feel like it is missing something. Also I want to drop 1 of the Kitchen Finks and the Master of the wild hunt but I am not sure what for. I was thinking Thragtusk and Maybe a 1-of Disciple of Bolas?

Looks like you've got a serious case of 1-of-with-no-tutors-itis -- best run before IBA pops up out of nowhere and kills you.

On a serious note, let's get rid of some of that. I'm guessing you're working towards just a straight Jund version, without PFire or Valakut and their subsequent deckbuilding requirements.

My suggestions:
Maindeck:

-2 Finks
-1 Master of the Wild Hunt
-1 Grave Titan

+1 Primeval Titan
+1 Thragtusk
+2 Huntmaster

-2 Liliana
-1 Garruk
-1 Diabolic Edict
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek

+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Top
+4 Lightning Bolt

-1 Verdant Catacombs
-4 Misty Rainforest
-1 Swamp

+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Bayou
+1 Taiga
+1 Badlands

This gives you a more stable manabase, a better finisher engine in Primeval -> Volrath's/Phyrexian combo, more Huntmasters, which are a much better Kitchen Finks, and Lightning Bolts, which are much better removal, and can also provide reach. You definitely want a 3rd Top and the 2nd Witness. I'm assuming that the Mistys are for budgetary constraints, so feel free to ignore me on that -- but there's no reason otherwise to run G/U over G/R in a Jund deck.

Let's look at the sideboard:
Holy crap that's a ton of dredge hate.

-4 Leyline of the Void
-1 Sword of F/F
-1 E.Plague
-1 Perish
-2 Surgical
-2 Duress

+4 Thoughtseize
+2 Extirpate
+2 Virtue's Ruin
+3 Carpet of Flowers

Extirpate is better than Surgical, because Sneak and Reanimator play counterspells. Thoughtseize is better than Duress/moving the Inquisitions to the board, because you don't care about the 2 life. You do care about not being able to take Sneak's Emrakul and then Extirpate it away. Carpet gives you some good game against Miracles, blue combo, RUG, and Stoneblade. Virtue's Ruin is strictly better than Perish vs Maverick, and it doesn't kill you stuff. The only thing it doesn't kill that you care about is Thrun, but you can just chump him all day, and a lot of Maverick lists have actually dropped Thrun anyway.

If you've got any questions, fire away =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Looks like you've got a serious case of 1-of-with-no-tutors-itis -- best run before IBA pops up out of nowhere and kills you.

On a serious note, let's get rid of some of that. I'm guessing you're working towards just a straight Jund version, without PFire or Valakut and their subsequent deckbuilding requirements.

My suggestions:
Maindeck:

-2 Finks
-1 Master of the Wild Hunt
-1 Grave Titan

+1 Primeval Titan
+1 Thragtusk
+2 Huntmaster

-2 Liliana
-1 Garruk
-1 Diabolic Edict
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek

+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Top
+4 Lightning Bolt

-1 Verdant Catacombs
-4 Misty Rainforest
-1 Swamp

+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Bayou
+1 Taiga
+1 Badlands

This gives you a more stable manabase, a better finisher engine in Primeval -> Volrath's/Phyrexian combo, more Huntmasters, which are a much better Kitchen Finks, and Lightning Bolts, which are much better removal, and can also provide reach. You definitely want a 3rd Top and the 2nd Witness. I'm assuming that the Mistys are for budgetary constraints, so feel free to ignore me on that -- but there's no reason otherwise to run G/U over G/R in a Jund deck.

Let's look at the sideboard:
Holy crap that's a ton of dredge hate.

-4 Leyline of the Void
-1 Sword of F/F
-1 E.Plague
-1 Perish
-2 Surgical
-2 Duress

+4 Thoughtseize
+2 Extirpate
+2 Virtue's Ruin
+3 Carpet of Flowers

Extirpate is better than Surgical, because Sneak and Reanimator play counterspells. Thoughtseize is better than Duress/moving the Inquisitions to the board, because you don't care about the 2 life. You do care about not being able to take Sneak's Emrakul and then Extirpate it away. Carpet gives you some good game against Miracles, blue combo, RUG, and Stoneblade. Virtue's Ruin is strictly better than Perish vs Maverick, and it doesn't kill you stuff. The only thing it doesn't kill that you care about is Thrun, but you can just chump him all day, and a lot of Maverick lists have actually dropped Thrun anyway.

If you've got any questions, fire away =)

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Alright! Well, my issue with Lightning Bolt is that it is good vs little creatures, but isn't this deck already good vs little creatures?

Also Liliana just seems so good against almost everything it would be difficult to drop those... Garruk I can definitely see though.

Does this deck really need a 3rd top? You never want more than one and it seems too slow against combo to really do anything.

As for the mana base, I am running a bit of a budget base at the moment and am working towards switching my mistys for foothills. Also I'm not the biggest fan of the Stronghold.

Primeval Titan over Grave? Grave Titan is not tutorable, but stabilizes a board so hard and is MUCH more difficult to answer.

As for the SB, it is very very rough. My local Meta is a decent amount of dredge (Last wednesday I played it twice in 4 swiss rounds), and a decent amount of control with some reanimator and Maverick splashed in. Thats the reason I have the mass amount of GY hate. I figure that pernicious deed already just beats the crap out of the fair decks, so I need to board for control and unfair stuff. What does carpet of flowers really do against control though? Most of the time I am making enough mana, its just beating a resolved Jace or a Miracled Entreat/Terminus. I do agree with Virtues rain however. And of course Thoughtseizes are the best but due to budgetary reasons may be out of the question sadly.

Why is everyone on Primeval Titan here? I have never tried it, but it just doesn't seem like it really does anything. Like Sigarda is tough to answer, Deranged Hermit Makes a ton of dudes, and Broodmate gives you 2 difficult to answer fliers. Why Primeval?

Because Primeval Titan is actually next to impossible to answer. It usually gets the combo of Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower. Think of it like your version of Mother of Runes - if you get to untap, your creatures are constantly protected from removal. You can just sac anything in response to anything and then use the BB to activate the Stronghold, putting it back on top to be re-cast later. If it sticks around, it also thins the hell out of your deck, even more than it already has been with Explorer.

I recommend Bolt because it isn't just good vs creatures -- it's good vs planeswalkers, and it provides you with reach, ie, the ability to do damage without needing to attack. The Rector version and Blue version run Kokusho for the same effect, and the Scapeshift version has Valakut. Bolt kills Jace, as well as certain problem creatures like Mother of Runes and Scavenging Ooze. Being able to get rid of their Ooze ASAP is pretty important. Bolt does help out against creature decks, but it isn't -for- creature decks. To understand what I mean by that, you might need to re-read my rant a few pages back. Just look for the longest post you've ever seen =)

My problem with Liliana is that you don't have a way to break her symmetry. You're discard gas just like your opponents are. PFire can use her because they can just discard PFire and then bring it back. Some of the BUG lists like her, too, because of stuff like Loam and Darkblast.

3rd Top is important because you always want one. If you happen to hit more than one, you can just draw off it in resp. to a GSZ or other shuffle effect. You can also trick it with Deed -- draw off Top, hold priority, in resp. break Deed for whatever >1. The Deed will resolve first, killing your Top in the process...but the Top trigger will still happen, so you draw a card, and are down a top. Worst case scenario, extra Tops read 1: Cantrip.

Carpets are primarily for vs RUG, but they're also good vs High Tide, Stoneblade, and Miracles, because against those decks, you don't really want to break an Explorer unless you have to. They run a large number of basics as well as you do, and they can use the mana to drop things that are just as/more scary, like planeswalkers, Entreats for 80, Tide Tide Tide Turnabout Spiral win, etc.

Budget sucks, but is understood. If you can't get Thoughtseizes / borrow from someone, I'd say you want 4 Durress. Inquisition is better vs creature decks, but you don't board in discard vs creature decks anyway. You just miss out on the ability to hit Sneak and Reanimator where it really hurts them: their creatures. You can still take their enablers, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Because Primeval Titan is actually next to impossible to answer. It usually gets the combo of Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower. Think of it like your version of Mother of Runes - if you get to untap, your creatures are constantly protected from removal. You can just sac anything in response to anything and then use the BB to activate the Stronghold, putting it back on top to be re-cast later. If it sticks around, it also thins the hell out of your deck, even more than it already has been with Explorer.

I recommend Bolt because it isn't just good vs creatures -- it's good vs planeswalkers, and it provides you with reach, ie, the ability to do damage without needing to attack. The Rector version and Blue version run Kokusho for the same effect, and the Scapeshift version has Valakut. Bolt kills Jace, as well as certain problem creatures like Mother of Runes and Scavenging Ooze. Being able to get rid of their Ooze ASAP is pretty important. Bolt does help out against creature decks, but it isn't -for- creature decks. To understand what I mean by that, you might need to re-read my rant a few pages back. Just look for the longest post you've ever seen =)

My problem with Liliana is that you don't have a way to break her symmetry. You're discard gas just like your opponents are. PFire can use her because they can just discard PFire and then bring it back. Some of the BUG lists like her, too, because of stuff like Loam and Darkblast.

3rd Top is important because you always want one. If you happen to hit more than one, you can just draw off it in resp. to a GSZ or other shuffle effect. You can also trick it with Deed -- draw off Top, hold priority, in resp. break Deed for whatever >1. The Deed will resolve first, killing your Top in the process...but the Top trigger will still happen, so you draw a card, and are down a top. Worst case scenario, extra Tops read 1: Cantrip.

Carpets are primarily for vs RUG, but they're also good vs High Tide, Stoneblade, and Miracles, because against those decks, you don't really want to break an Explorer unless you have to. They run a large number of basics as well as you do, and they can use the mana to drop things that are just as/more scary, like planeswalkers, Entreats for 80, Tide Tide Tide Turnabout Spiral win, etc.

Budget sucks, but is understood. If you can't get Thoughtseizes / borrow from someone, I'd say you want 4 Durress. Inquisition is better vs creature decks, but you don't board in discard vs creature decks anyway. You just miss out on the ability to hit Sneak and Reanimator where it really hurts them: their creatures. You can still take their enablers, though.

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Ill give Primeval some thought. That does make sense. I always have thought about it but never too seriously.

You may have sold me on Lightning Bolt. Once I can get better lands I think it definitely will be going in. I totally forgot about how it kills PW's. Carpet also seems pretty good. Maybe I'll try it out as like a 2 of?

I like Carpet at 3, personally -- that way you tend to find them fairly regularly. I think if you start with it at 2, you're going to find that you want to see it more often ... it's pretty addictive when you're playing vs blue decks, as I think others in the thread will echo. I know Viridia just tried it out as a 4-of at Ghent...not sure how it worked for him with that many. He also switched out all 4 Explorers for them a lot of games, though, which tends to not be how I play the card....I prefer it in addition to Explorer, although I usually board out like 2 Explorers vs Stoneblade and Miracles.

Well, i figured that considering it's amazing in multiples, gets blown up by every Deed it's not bad at 4.
I side out the Explorers against blue (except tempo) simply because i noticed you often give them 2 basics, they counter your drop or discard and then go Jace + something or Jace + countermana up etc.
I never thought i didnt want to see more Carpets vs blue :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Because Primeval Titan is actually next to impossible to answer. It usually gets the combo of Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower.

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Ive kept up with the thread, but havent posted in a while cause I havent been playing any legacy this summer (super busy with grad classes), but prime titan getting Volraths stronghold and Phyrexian tower is amazing. In any non-recurring nightmare version of the deck, I cant think of any reason not to have it.

Also, you always want 3 tops. Top makes this deck work. I used to think it wasnt necessary but I was so so wrong.

Also @Arianrhod congrats on your finishes lately. Mythic is awesome, it is really competitive but the people there are nice and the store is run really well (and its super clean!). You'll see me up there in the fall when I go back to living in Ithaca. And I see you've met my good friend JC, and the reason why I started having to put massacre in my SB.

Haha, sweet. I didn't realize that you were up that way. What are you going for in grad school? I'll be working on my Masters (and then probably doctorate) in English after a few years -- I have family ties in central PA at the moment, and there aren't exactly any good schools around here for what I work with (specifically digital mythopoesis). I was wondering why you hadn't been posting lately -- that certainly explains it, though.

And yeah, I've actually become pretty good friends with JC, Timur, Rob, and Steve. Good people up that way.

Also, if you want to annoy JC sometime, I'm pretty sure Death and taxes actually can't beat the Scapeshift Red version. Like, ever.

Hello everyone! I recently found out about this thread from mtgsalvation's and it seems this is much more active and helpful.

While the blue version looks pretty good, it is more controlling it seems and I probably want to keep my comfort level in white. Here is my current setup:

Creature (15)
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spiritmonger
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Planeswalker (5)
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Liliana of the Veil

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Land (20)
3x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (2)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Choke
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Extirpate
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation

A few things about my non-standard choices:

Ajani may be better served as just Elspeth or another creature but I think it's worth a test.

Spiritmonger seems like an odd choice I know, but it's another 5 drop which you can get on t2 with Phyrexian tower and veteran explorer, it's a zenith target, it get's around mother of runes and can block all the ground guys indefinitely. Also, while he's not particularly hard to deal with, most decks atm are not particularly prepared for him. It's tested well so far but I could see it being a Sigarda or something else instead.

Gerrard's verdict has replaced Hymn to Taurach for a few reasons. It's easier to cast honestly, as committing yourself to BB on t2 is rough on the rest of the mana base. It also still gets 2 cards. And against burn or RUG delver, you either get some of their gas or you get their land and gain life, which is highly relevant. Also helps vs sneak and show too as getting to 23 can mean the difference between winning or losing in 1 swing.

Thragtusk of course seems nuts and is probably just what this deck needed imo at 5. I feel 5 is the sweet spot of the deck if you are going the phyrexian tower route (which I am currently), though I could be convinced to run 1 tower and 1 volrath's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Haha, sweet. I didn't realize that you were up that way. What are you going for in grad school? I'll be working on my Masters (and then probably doctorate) in English after a few years -- I have family ties in central PA at the moment, and there aren't exactly any good schools around here for what I work with (specifically digital mythopoesis). I was wondering why you hadn't been posting lately -- that certainly explains it, though.

And yeah, I've actually become pretty good friends with JC, Timur, Rob, and Steve. Good people up that way.

Also, if you want to annoy JC sometime, I'm pretty sure Death and taxes actually can't beat the Scapeshift Red version. Like, ever.

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Im in Ithaca Colleges Doctorate in Physical therapy program. This summer was the start of the grad work so I am in Rochester at URs medical school for that.

Oh nice! I dont know Rob, but Timur and steve I know well. Timur always stomps me with MUD :( I miss ithaca, the LGS has legacy for its FNM ha!

I think I already annoyed him enough by adding darkblasts/massacres. But that red list does look really solid, and a lot of fun. If I could barrow some Taigas and badlands from friends Id definitly play it sometime.




The MUD thing actually gets me thinking, that is really bad much up for us and the deck is seeing increasing popularity, at Ghent i think I saw it was about as well represented as nic fit. Is there anything we can do (and is worth doing) to improve that match up? My first thought is pithing needle, which I am a big fan of, but a lot of the time its just going to get chaliced out. It might just be one of those MUs like storm, where its just not worth having 4 slots in your side for mindbreaktrap/creeping corrosion respectively. This isnt really something thats been discussed here very much, so what are peoples thoughts?




@Kung Foo: Welcome to The Source! Last time I checked the MTGS nic fit thread, it was labled as an "aggro" deck and Derranged Hermit was still in every list.

I dont really like the gerrads verdict. I like the reasoning of the possible lifegain, and the cost of BW, but really, targeted discard is much better for this deck since alot of cards sweep or nullify a chunk of our opponents cards. I like having 2 duress/thoughtsieze in that slot.

As awesome and nostalgic as spiritmonger is, I cant really see any justifications of running it over Sigarda. Same with Ajani over Elspeth. Ajani doesn't really seem very good in this deck since it doesnt change the board state, it relies on already having a good board state.

20 lands AND dryad arbor, seems kinda shakey, how has that been? I noticed most people have been cutting dryad arbor which is a choice I agree with.

I like your SB, its different from most peoples here but not in a bad way. I havent tested E tutor in this deck at all, but I would like to at some point. It might be a little GY hate heavy, but could be a meta thing. Still seems pretty solid.

I dropped Dryad arbor for awhile and it is a tad underwhelming, But I have had a few times where I was wishing I had it to get with a fetch land just as a chump blocker to save my Liliana, or sacrifice to an Innocent blood or even as another cabal therapy activation. Also For whatever it is worth its not awful against Standstill.

I dont know what it is, but I just hate the E-Tutor package in general. In Maverick and everything. Its decent selection but its just annoying to not get it in your hand right away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Im in Ithaca Colleges Doctorate in Physical therapy program. This summer was the start of the grad work so I am in Rochester at URs medical school for that.

Oh nice! I dont know Rob, but Timur and steve I know well. Timur always stomps me with MUD :( I miss ithaca, the LGS has legacy for its FNM ha!

I think I already annoyed him enough by adding darkblasts/massacres. But that red list does look really solid, and a lot of fun. If I could barrow some Taigas and badlands from friends Id definitly play it sometime.




The MUD thing actually gets me thinking, that is really bad much up for us and the deck is seeing increasing popularity, at Ghent i think I saw it was about as well represented as nic fit. Is there anything we can do (and is worth doing) to improve that match up? My first thought is pithing needle, which I am a big fan of, but a lot of the time its just going to get chaliced out. It might just be one of those MUs like storm, where its just not worth having 4 slots in your side for mindbreaktrap/creeping corrosion respectively. This isnt really something thats been discussed here very much, so what are peoples thoughts?




@Kung Foo: Welcome to The Source! Last time I checked the MTGS nic fit thread, it was labled as an "aggro" deck and Derranged Hermit was still in every list.

I dont really like the gerrads verdict. I like the reasoning of the possible lifegain, and the cost of BW, but really, targeted discard is much better for this deck since alot of cards sweep or nullify a chunk of our opponents cards. I like having 2 duress/thoughtsieze in that slot.

As awesome and nostalgic as spiritmonger is, I cant really see any justifications of running it over Sigarda. Same with Ajani over Elspeth. Ajani doesn't really seem very good in this deck since it doesnt change the board state, it relies on already having a good board state.

20 lands AND dryad arbor, seems kinda shakey, how has that been? I noticed most people have been cutting dryad arbor which is a choice I agree with.

I like your SB, its different from most peoples here but not in a bad way. I havent tested E tutor in this deck at all, but I would like to at some point. It might be a little GY hate heavy, but could be a meta thing. Still seems pretty solid.

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Hah, I never understood why it was in the aggro section either. And i've never run deranged hermit. Master of the wild hunt is just better due to its spot removal.

My only issue with Sigarda is the WW in it's cost really. Ajani/elspeth would be an experimental thing at this point as well, as I haven't played many games with them in the slot. I was trying a Scroll Rack/Entreat the Angels package for a while but have been underwhelmed. It would behoove me to find another 4-5 drop creature to replace this slot with. Sigarda for spiritmonger and what for the ajani placeholder? Baneslayer? meh.

20 lands plus Dryad is a misnomer from the copy paste of tapped out. It's actually 20 lands including Arbor, but dryad arbor is also listed under creatures :/. If you look closesly the lands section has an arbor in it along with the creature section, oops. But the land package has seemed fine. I wouldn't be against cutting him though as it is kind of 'meh' but if no other 1 drops in hand it can turn a hand into a keepable one I guess. I would still probably stick with 20 lands overall, however. Probably take him out for Volrath's honestly.

Re: Gerrard's verdict, another experiment that has been testing reasonably well but i'm not sold on. Inquisition would be fine as well.

The SB is a port from the last list that top 8'd an SCG a few months ago. The heavy GY hate is not so much all gy hate but also combo hate. Make them discard a piece and then extract it from their deck. Only somewhat helps the matchup vs high tide etc. I've also considered 2-3 chalice of the voids which shuts down most of the decks in the format. Ofc it shuts off cabal therapy too though...

As for enlightened tutor. I don't like the idea of running a package with 3-4 enlighteneds and a bunch of bullets to target. But the idea of 1 in the SB to help you get to your SB bullets is not unreasonable. When you NEED a choke, deed or wheel of sun/moon, you NEED one. And that is what the tutor is good for imo.

Should be doing more testing tomorrow vs probably maverick mostly which kinda sucks since it should be an easy matchup but meh take what i can get.