[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

I don't have time for a postwall at the moment, but I will quickly interject that you are 100% wrong about Duress vs Thoughtseize. As you correctly note, those slots are for combo of all types. Here's a couple scenarios:

You Duress your (revealed to be) Infect opponent. He has Invigorate, Berserk, a Vines of Vastwood, a couple nonimportant cards, and a Glistener Elf. Admittedly you're not in a good position whether Thoughtseize or Duress, but Thoughtseize lets you take the sole infect creature whereas Duress merely allows him to not overkill you by as much.

You Duress your (revealed to be) Sneak and Show opponent. He has double Show and Tell, a couple cantrips, and a Griselbrand. Same scenario as above despite a different deck: Thoughtseize allows the game to continue. Duress does nothing.

I'd write out an example for Elves, but I think that you get the idea by now.

I'll grant you that Duress edges out Thoughtseize in some matchups. 2 life is a storm count vs ANT/TES. 2 life vs burn. Etc. But overall, Thoughtseize is simply relevant in the most situations, and vs the most decks that we struggle with as an archetype. I would run the 4th Thoughtseize before I ran the 1st Duress, not counting corner cases like Gifts.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I will quickly interject that you are 100% wrong about Duress vs Thoughtseize.

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Thanks for the clarification on those. I can definitely agree in those situations for sure. I wasn't 100% sold on Duress either, but your explanations definitely prove the point. I'll run with Thoughtseize next time.

Thoughtseize will always be better in the majority of our matchup. It allow you to pick the most important card of their hand. The lifeloss is nearly always irrevelant (except for the obvious combo, burn and such), we have to think about our life total as a ressource being a control deck after all ! On the other hand you can just get out with playing both for the combo matchup.

How have Elspeth been for you so far ? I'm at the moment thinking of a list with Elspeth and/or Liliana, but so far haven't been able to test. In my eye, liliana is a tad better due to it's ability to answer an opposing creature. However, Elspeth allow us to close the game faster and is can't get abrupt decayed...

All in all great list, even though i'd play less creature and more removal, but that's just my personnal taste !

Elspeth is one of the best planeswalkers for white-oriented nic fits, bar none. She accelerates the clock, sometimes unexpectedly for the opponent, builds a persistent board presence, and has a highly relevant ultimate. Finding room for her can sometimes be challenging, but never underestimate the card's power level in our deck. Flying rhinos is terrifying. Also, keep in mind that Elspeth (and other combat walkers) is one of the absolute best cards you can have vs Miracles, which is -the- matchup right now.

I still personally believe that Liliana belongs in exactly PFire builds, and some of the PFire players have been saying lately that she's been disappointing even there.

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Originally Posted by Holo_rip

How have Elspeth been for you so far ? I'm at the moment thinking of a list with Elspeth and/or Liliana, but so far haven't been able to test. In my eye, liliana is a tad better due to it's ability to answer an opposing creature. However, Elspeth allow us to close the game faster and is can't get abrupt decayed...

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I really love Elspeth in the list. She has done so much work for me whenever I play her. The tokens she makes are built in protection, and the +1 to jump a creature can either close a game really fast, or goes a long way in dealing with other walkers. Even a token, explorer, or deathrite can kill a Jace if you jump them into it. I've never gone ultimate with her, not because I didn't have time, but because every game that got near that point ended before she could. Making 7/8 flying, trampling rhinos is just a ton of fun.

She is also, as you've mentioned, pretty tough to answer. Most of our creatures can block for days on the ground, and decay is no good. Sure, shes not invincible, but she demands attention the moment she hits the board. I'd say to give it a go :)

@Starscream- To be honest I would just play a 3rd ponder to find Jace. aside from the cantrips which provide consistency Jace backed by both discard and force as well as the nuckleheads of creatures we drop into play it is really the best card to have. Ponder seems fine though another snap or baleful depending on your meta would also work. I am on 2/2 between strix and snap and cant decide if I would want another snap over strix but then on Sunday (which was not at mead hall unfortunately as they do usually stream many events) I ran into plenty of decks like the delver and even mentor deck where just having a killspell on board was nice. If you think you would see more control or combo then Snap is way better. Especially with a board of things like negate, dispel, TS and surgical in addition to the cantrips you usually use him as.

@Ralf- I have found tasigur to be amazing and the only downside is that he is legendary which can come up against things like dnt where they have karakas. Otherwise I accumulate so much mana that it is another source of CA as well as just a quick beater that some decks have a tough time removing. I also like that it really forces decks to think on how they want to attack the deck post board. Leaving things like swords in can become a liability if you just play out walkers and removal but if they take it out tasigur, tar pit and tusk can become problems.

- My mana base is definitely greedy. 21 land is not a lot especially with tarpit. My thoughts were If I can set off vet im usually good and if not then the cantrips have to find them. I have definitely gotten stuck on 3 mana sometimes but the deck can still operate with removal for awhile. I think the trade of is that the deck is jam packed with gas and 2 for 1s so in a drawn out game you can just have more power than most decks. I also side out vets against certain decks. I did build this deck to be able to play a more draw-go style control game. This deck can win plenty of games where you just drop land for a while, case removal and strix and then power out walkers. If I did add a land it would probably be some type of utility land.

- I used to play a glen elendra in my SB but I ended up not particularly liking it. I think its great against those control or combo decks once you get it out there and its one of the cards I would like to add back but I just never really found what I wanted to cut to bring her in and it ended up being a slot that I felt was wasted. However, it competes directly with Notion thief, so if I dropped to 1 or 0 glen elendra would be the first replacement. I am a big fan of notion thief tho, in a meta with miracles and omni I like notion thief more. Its an instant play vs sorcery and it allows to sometimes just jam at end of their turn to draw countermagic for the untap jace or lily or dig. To be honest, they both provide wins if they resolve (in most cases) or a large advantage so I kind of see them as play preference. Also Notion thiefing jace is just fun, so there is that... lol

- Moving forward I am not sure on the SB but that is so meta dependent it is hard to find a perfect 15. I would probably drop a TS and maybe add 1 more card that comes in vs delver and creature decks. Tusk is also on the block but its kind of a necessary evil with some type of lifegain in the md is probably good. Plus him and Jace and just lock out aggro with the bounce reply trick that does come up more than I would have thought.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

with the bounce reply trick that does come up more than I would have thought.

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Yep. Bouncing Glen Elendra (and snappy to a lesser extend) has happened many times.

How are your D&T and Jund MU ? I had to put aside my old BUG builds because I never felt favored with many Walkers against P.fire or against a Revoker (on Deed) protected by a MoR. And oh boys, my meta, at that time, was infected by both...

Anyway, your list looks pretty solid and if anyone has never tested Tasigur in a control shell, now is the time.


@Thread:

I had a couple of hours yesterday night to make a few games with the Demigod list I have posted a few days ago.

I have to acknowledge that this list is pretty badass, and yet, not tuned at all.

Here are few *hot* comments:
- The mana curve might be a bit high especially when you have a couple of Demigods rotting in your hand.
- Even if I hit for 10 or 15 on a few occasions, we might get what we need with only 3 demigods so that we could fix the above comment.
- I had forgotten how much bolt is OP. 75 % of my finishing moves were a double bolt to the face ...
- I'm in love with Kolaghan's command. How come I didn't think of it sooner. The "Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand", at instant speed, is completely OP.
- Since the last time I played Scape, I haven't kill anyone at such a speed.
- There are many nice tricks with Demigods and I'm sure I haven't seen them all. "Ambush you for 5, sac' God to therapy, rape your only out from your hand, replay another God next turn for 10 in your face" kinda makes me happy.

Did anyone have had time to do some tests on his side with the list and want to share some feeling / ideas ?

@Tom4ik - I'll keep an eye out for BUG nic-fit when I make it to Mead Hall. It'll probably be a few weeks before I have my Junk list complete though. What is the meta like there? I've only played Modern once at Mead Hall.

The appeal to try that BUG list... nearly cannot suppress it. Good job both Ralf as Tom.

Currently i am recollecting the missing cards to put together JUNK NicFit. A while ago i sold of a bunch, but the good news is that i can go full Japanese on JUNK in the process. At first i had some appeal towards a Stoneforge package coupled with the amazing mister Sun Titan, but i stepped away from it and wanted to have more of a PFire feel to it. Biggest difference being that it has "less" control elements, but more beatdown. This while keeping in a variety of creatures to have slightly more a toolbox for Green Sun's Zenith. Also i am keeping in some spots for Planeswalkers. Elspeth and Vraska. To achieve this i have sacrificed the Intent/Nightmare package and didn't stick to having 3/4 Siege Rhino. At this point i am keeping in Thragtusk since the creature has been so amazing in my PFire list. Although this could easily become Rhino nr 3. Also i will be playing Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares since i mostly do not care when the opponent grabs basics out of my Veteran Explorers anyway. It also makes Marit Lage a juice target. I will try to compensate the loss of Slaughter Games with Memoricide, because i refuse to go 4 color's.


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

// board
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Memoricide
1 Dryad Militant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Carpet of Flowers

Does this mean i am stepping away from PFire? NO. I am still waiting for the good mailmen to deliver Stormbreath Dragon. For now the list has booted the CMC 6 slot and 1 Liliana (painful) to make room for 2 Strombreath Dragon's. No changes in the board. A lot of testing ahead, in that testing there are 2 things i want to try to confirm. 1. Is there legitimate place for non-green creatures in the deck?, 2. Is missing Liliana really a miss?


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Slaughter Games
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

// board
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless

I love the idea of Demigod, I'll grab a set then give something a spin at my LGS next Tuesday (it's streamed on Twitch, so I'll let you guys know if I get it together in time, store is Darksphere).

If we're playing Punishing Fire too, Faithless Looting could be nice to discard Demigods and Fires. At the risk of becoming too GY dependent, what about Entomb? If you're casting one Demigod, then Entomb is the second for one black mana. Maybe this is going off the usual Nic Fit path, but it could be pretty powerful. Can Entomb for a therapy in a pinch vs combo too. And of course find P Fire.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Here are few *hot* comments:
- The mana curve might be a bit high especially when you have a couple of Demigods rotting in your hand.
- Even if I hit for 10 or 15 on a few occasions, we might get what we need with only 3 demigods so that we could fix the above comment.
- I had forgotten how much bolt is OP. 75 % of my finishing moves were a double bolt to the face ...
- I'm in love with Kolaghan's command. How come I didn't think of it sooner. The "Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand", at instant speed, is completely OP.
- Since the last time I played Scape, I haven't kill anyone at such a speed.
- There are many nice tricks with Demigods and I'm sure I haven't seen them all. "Ambush you for 5, sac' God to therapy, rape your only out from your hand, replay another God next turn for 10 in your face" kinda makes me happy.

Did anyone have had time to do some tests on his side with the list and want to share some feeling / ideas ?

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Just some small ideas, not to much depth in them tho.

That mana curve is something. Rebuilding the manabase would defently be a requirement. The question is, how well does Veteran Explorer work with setting up that manabase, granted you need green mana to startup ramping, but cannot use Forests to fire of the Demigod. Getting duals in the early game might make you vurnerable to Wasteland. I would almost say cut down green entirely and go for a more eva green, but instead red splashed build with Dark Ritual...

On a not to serious note about Demigod. A planeswalker often being overlooked is Liliana of the Dark Realms. Being able to keep grabbing lands might assist you ramping even harder midgame. Plus that her -3 becomes bigger overtime. And if your gonna use Urborg, Tomb of Yaghmoth it would defenitly help that -3 ability.

Anyway, Kolaghan's command is gonna have a go soon in the PFire list. I will replace 1 or 2 Slaughter Games for either 1 or 2 copies.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Just some small ideas, not to much depth in them tho.

That mana curve is something. Rebuilding the manabase would defently be a requirement. The question is, how well does Veteran Explorer work with setting up that manabase, granted you need green mana to startup ramping, but cannot use Forests to fire of the Demigod. Getting duals in the early game might make you vurnerable to Wasteland. I would almost say cut down green entirely and go for a more eva green, but instead red splashed build with Dark Ritual...

On a not to serious note about Demigod. A planeswalker often being overlooked is Liliana of the Dark Realms. Being able to keep grabbing lands might assist you ramping even harder midgame. Plus that her -3 becomes bigger overtime. And if your gonna use Urborg, Tomb of Yaghmoth it would defenitly help that -3 ability.

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Well, I thought about revamping the mana base but the ability to fetch for a swamp + green of a dying veteran is too important (if you have already a forest and a swamp in play).
I lost very few games yesterday. We are still a midrange/control deck and not being able to cast a demigod of only 5 lands in play did not seem too much detrimental.
But yet, an other active card replacing demigod n°4 might be better. Time will tell.

the 3/3 split between DRS/Vet might not be the best one but the fact that I played a lot against deck with red didn't help at all sticking a DRS in play.

Based on your experience, are 4 GSZ too many for only 10 green creatures ?
I am very tempted to replace a demigod for another GSZ.

I didn't know this card existed until now. Would it be worth it as a SB card in non BUG lists?


Guttural Response

I think flusterstorm is definitely sufficient for that effect while being way more flexible.

Short answer is no it doesnt hit anything back breaking in any matchups. None of the green counterspells are worth running.

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Originally Posted by Dissection

I love the idea of Demigod, I'll grab a set then give something a spin at my LGS next Tuesday (it's streamed on Twitch, so I'll let you guys know if I get it together in time, store is Darksphere).

If we're playing Punishing Fire too, Faithless Looting could be nice to discard Demigods and Fires. At the risk of becoming too GY dependent, what about Entomb? If you're casting one Demigod, then Entomb is the second for one black mana. Maybe this is going off the usual Nic Fit path, but it could be pretty powerful. Can Entomb for a therapy in a pinch vs combo too. And of course find P Fire.

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If I were to play entomb, I would play a strict G/B Fit deck.

Actually, I have a monstruosity somewhere in my binder which looks like:


4 Veteran explorer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk
1 Genesis
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Glissa, the traitor
1 Deathrite shaman
1 Wickerbough Elder

3 entomb
3 reanimate
3 crop rotation

3 Abrupt decay
3 Pernicious deed
1 Engineered explosives

1 recurring nightmare

3 Cabal therapy

1 Life from the loam

1 wasteland
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 karakas
1 dark depths
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Swamp


Well, the deck is not linear at all and might be what you should expect from a legacy deck nowadays. Some very strong T1 to T3 plays.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

the 3/3 split between DRS/Vet might not be the best one but the fact that I played a lot against deck with red didn't help at all sticking a DRS in play.

Based on your experience, are 4 GSZ too many for only 10 green creatures ?
I am very tempted to replace a demigod for another GSZ.

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DRS alone didn't, but the sum of all lifegain did pull the weight.

4 GSZ have never felt like it where to many. i have always been happy to see one or more. I often fire them of when i have them to push critical mass. Sometimes i hold them back when i am building up for a specific target. Early game to lategame i build up from Veteran Explorer as a target to Courser to Hunmaster or Thrun to Thragtusk/PrimeTime. As the game advances youd see them more often, but still ive never gotten in situations that i did not have a target. Also it helps when one or two get countered that they still keep showing up (often enough).

Edit: reducing the number of gsz also reduces the chance of reaching critical mass theoraticly. Aside from that gsz also provides a shuffle effect for both SDT as for Courser (to a lesser extend).

Feels fucking good to get dirted by the ol' double Leyline of Sanctity into Boseiju protected SnT into Omni into Emrakul, which obviously beats my REB+Grip hand. Cool story, bro.

Hopefully this doesnt keep up I dont want to need an oring/ ashen rider effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Yep. Bouncing Glen Elendra (and snappy to a lesser extend) has happened many times.

How are your D&T and Jund MU ? I had to put aside my old BUG builds because I never felt favored with many Walkers against P.fire or against a Revoker (on Deed) protected by a MoR. And oh boys, my meta, at that time, was infected by both...

Anyway, your list looks pretty solid and if anyone has never tested Tasigur in a control shell, now is the time.


@Thread:

I had a couple of hours yesterday night to make a few games with the Demigod list I have posted a few days ago.

I have to acknowledge that this list is pretty badass, and yet, not tuned at all.

Here are few *hot* comments:
- The mana curve might be a bit high especially when you have a couple of Demigods rotting in your hand.
- Even if I hit for 10 or 15 on a few occasions, we might get what we need with only 3 demigods so that we could fix the above comment.
- I had forgotten how much bolt is OP. 75 % of my finishing moves were a double bolt to the face ...
- I'm in love with Kolaghan's command. How come I didn't think of it sooner. The "Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand", at instant speed, is completely OP.
- Since the last time I played Scape, I haven't kill anyone at such a speed.
- There are many nice tricks with Demigods and I'm sure I haven't seen them all. "Ambush you for 5, sac' God to therapy, rape your only out from your hand, replay another God next turn for 10 in your face" kinda makes me happy.

Did anyone have had time to do some tests on his side with the list and want to share some feeling / ideas ?

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I haven't seen the list, but it seems to me that multiple copies of Diabolic Intent would fit that list incredibly well.