Do you mind posting your latest list? I will try out different haymakers but to me the shell is the real question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
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Do you mind posting your latest list? I will try out different haymakers but to me the shell is the real question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
I used to run Master of the Wild Hunt, mostly because I like the card and it acts a removal and just value against a lot of decks. With fatal push printed that is a lot weaker since it now dies to push and bolt, so I have since switched to the vizier and it's been solid. Dodging bolt is great, and simply "scrying" with shuffle effects has been really good. It can also help clear the top of the deck if you have a sylvan library. I think there is a place for it in certain builds, I'm down to 3 rhinos to make room for that slot so maybe that's wrong, but I have never needed the 4th rhino anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Yeah... Turns out you sometimes do need them all. A couple of days ago I needed (and had) 5. Sure, the fifth one was overkill, but the first 4...Quote:
Originally Posted by LVA
All joking aside, I think it's cool you managed to incorporate one. Would you share your 60/75?
2 bayou
1 Savannah
1 scrubland
4 verdant catacombs
1 Phyrexian tower
1 voltrath's stronghold
4 windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 swamp
2 plains
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shaman
1 scavenging ooze
1 courser of kruphix
2 tireless tracker
3 siege rhino
1 Vizier or Menagerie
1 Sigarda, host of herons
1 eternal witness
4 green sun's zenith
4 cabal therapy
1 painful truths
1 sylvan library
3 abrupt decay
3 swords to plowshares
1 maelstrom pulse
1 diabolic intent
3 pernicious deed
I've been pretty satisfied with the spells and creatures in their current form. I've been think of going from 23 to 22 lands but that's about it. Sideboard has been changing a lot recently.
I'm also out of town right now so this is just from memory, so i have may have gotten some of the numbers wrong.
I went to a small local event today with Ari's monstrosity.
Losing to budget infect in 3
Beating Grixis Delver (blood moon, so good)
Beating 4 Color Control in 3 (He ultimated lily and split my lands vs Sneak and nahiri on 8 (his only beats were a DRS, which didn't race Nahiri.) I took nahiri and the sneak. Emmy won that.
Beating Elves in 3 (game 3, therapy his order, library, deluge to wipe the board on turn 3, Deed on one turn 4, Slaughter games for NO on turn 5.)
Losing to d and T in the top 4 in 3.
The deck has game for sure.
How were the Rhinos specifically? Did they fill in the midgame awkwardness?
Stunned you lost to DnT, but Infect is, sadly, expected. Shaving a Deed and cutting back on the spot removal maindeck, while I still believe correct for the metagame overall, makes us incredibly weak to Infect where we weren't really before. Just something to keep in mind, I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
The following 2 lists 5-0'd MTGO leagues the last couple of days:
BUG Pod by NicolBolas77
This one seems really strange to me.
0 Strix. And what is that Tasigur for (can't be podded, sure it's only one pod but isn't Angler better)? Blue count for FoW is also only 15 even if you board in all 7 blue spells so you probably have to board in Jace against fast combo etc.
BUG Fit by responsiblejoseph12
4 Probes seems interesting to me, I initially thought the card was one of the reasons to go blue but since noone else was doing it I figured the life loss was too great, synergy with Therapy is awesome however as every grixis player knows. I don't exactly get the Tasigur here either, I thought Angler was considered better in legacy because of Karakas, Smashers (rare these days) and Goyfs, is this different for a deck like Nic Fit that can reasonably expect to activate Tasigur (unlike Delver)?
E: Not sure how I feel about 0 Ooze in his 75. /E
Definitely nice to see another list with FoW do well, the deck has felt really powerful to me.
Redcap -> Thragtusk -> Tasigur works just fine if you ask me. I'd rather go for the Grave Titan, but that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by 509
Pretty sure I went rhinos 3 straight turns to kill some one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIggins
I also did sneak in a rhino to kill someone.
I feel like Delve cards in a pod deck should be there to get you something ridiculous. Like using Hooting Mandrills->Grave Titan. That seems like a good use. Tasigur just there for value..? I guess. I mean.. in Nic Fit he may draw you two cards a turn, but Tracker can do that just as well, won't be bounce by karakas, won't be chosen by your opponent, etc.
Tracker stops the Chain. But Tasigur, Dead-Eye Navigator + Fierce Empath, Grave Titan, Consecrated Sphinx or whatever juicy seems like a good idea. Deadeye, bounce Empath, grab and cast Tasigur.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
All in all, in BUG (Pod) DeadEye seems like to generate most value in this deck. Strix, Redcap, Thragtusk and whatnot. That is, if you got the Engine going.
OR how about Woodland Belower into Empath into Tasigur and pod the Woodland dude for Simic Sky Swallower
Suppose you cant have it all. List looks funky as hell. My only real problem with the manabase is the Plateau.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Some thoughts about Sneak Fit:
Instead of Rhinos, can you see another creature that ist more on colour? A Huntmaster perhaps? He does not drain your opponent but gives life as well and produces intent fodder. You would not sneak it in but it is easy to cast.
What do you think about the ideal of splashing a Tropical Island for leovold?
Is Nahiri that good. I tested her and after that i believe she is good.... somehow...but more as a Sideboardcard if you fear your Sneak attacks will be the target of Surgical Extractions. I never managed to ultimate her. Never.
Nissa Vastwood Seer seems very good in this new Incarnation. She manages to hit your land drops. That seems very important to me. If she only could be fetched with the bellower
Massacre Wurm is doing well, atleast for me. Eating pyromancer Tokens and the pyromancer himself is fun.
Sylvan lybrary, night's whisper, painful truth, tireless tracker(s), Nahiri,... I have no idea what we should play. I testet everything but nothing compares to top.
I tested a version of A's list and also found Nahiri a bit under-performing. Not that I had the chance to cast her very often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalton!
Right now I'm trying 2 Painful Truths alongside the 3 Rhinos. Only splashing for them and a canonist in the side to replace Chalice. Sideboard overhauled to better handle online meta.
Huntmasters could be nice alternatives, I haven't considered running similar numbers of them before. Intent fodder is a large positive.
I'm going to be streaming a couple of different builds tonight. I'll post in here when I go live.
Huntmaster is bad these days. Losing Top means losing Huntmaster, effectively, since you lose the only way we had to abuse him (both to guarantee flips easily and also to accrue value while passing the turn to flip him). Even before, though, Huntmaster was falling out of favor pretty badly. He just doesn't keep up with the power creep in today's world.
I don't think Leovold is even playable in Nic Fit, tbh. Frankly, every single time I've seen a Leovold in play, in any format, on either side of the table, he's underwhelmed me. I know he's a monster in EDH but I don't consider that a format, so...bleh. If we were going to splash blue, it would be for Brainstorm, straight up. I don't even know that we would run any other blue cards. That, to me, doesn't fix the problem that Sneak is having, which is a mid-game power hole.
I like the idea of sideboarding the Nahiris, but that creates a problem with an already cramped sideboard.
My thought on flip!Nissa are roughly the same. She could be insane, but not being Bellowable is a huge drawback, and I don't think there's room for her, Empath, Tracker, and Witness.
To be honest I was quite "shocked" when Arian posted his sneaky rhino list, and that's because a couple days before he made his post I basically modified my GB list in the same exact fashion.
I put in a very light white splash featuring some rhinos in the main and 2-3 canonists in the side (canonist is probably the best card to play along with discard spells against combo); on top of that I put the 2 intents+arbor package in my deck.
My reason for putting in rhino was that he covers that sweet sweet spot between being a stabilisation tool and win condition; no other card does that in a meaningful way. Rhino does everything (duh): stabilises the board, gains life, attacks powerfully, scares the opponent. That's the reason I felt like I needed rhino in my GB list, and in my life in general.
However, I came to the realisation that I had a problem with rhino in my GB deck. Even a single plains in the deck was painful to have because he stretched my manabase (I play 2 hymns and 2 lilianas) in a way I didn't like. And my main goal for playing GB was having a lower curve, and having some 4 drops made the deck noticeably clunkier (probably Arian doesn't have this problem because his sneak fit deck is built exactly to have a bunch of 4+ mana cards).
For this very reason I decided to try to swap rhinos with finks.
The ouphe fills the role of the "wall", previously covered by rhino, but on top of that: it costs 1 less than rhino, doesn't require white, gains more life (=4. Yes, even if he somehow gets eaten by DRS: that green activation of DRS represents a +2 life for us because that same DRS could have drained us with its black ability). Bonus interaction with cabal therapy is nice to have.
To be honest the card is cheap enough and gives us enough time to move into the late game, and for these reasons I am happy with the change so far.
And I continue to believe that rhino is a "4 of or GTFO" type of card, and that means that I don't like splashing just for a couple of rhinos: if we really want life gain that bad there are cheaper options, like finks (or, if you like it, courser), that are functionally better than rhino at gaining life. I don't like less than 4 rhinos because its power comes from jamming rhino after rhino after rhino: that is the main strenght of the path of the rhino. Having 2 rhinos means that he is going to gain us some life and that's basically it; plus it's not like we have trouble closing games and we NEED to splash for rhino (and that's even more true in a sneak list in my opinion, but I'll leave every judgement on the sneak attack archetype to the experts).
Another thing that caught my attention is that Arian decided to try in that list 2 intents and arbor. Which is the same exact thing I changed in my deck, and to be honest I am shocked at how good that "combo" is.
I have always said that arbor is bad unless it's played with SFM and/or Meren, and I still continue to think that's true; however, since my curve is pretty low I haven't had a single problem with intent. I don't know if I would still like the card in a more conventional 8 rhino list, to me it seems like intent would be clunky in that deck: rhino needs more card draw to have more power (and to take proper advantage of all the life gain), intent seems better in a combo list or a list that has some sort of "bullets" to tutor for. This is the direction I want to take at the moment.
8 green fetches + 4 gsz means there are a lot of chances of sac'ing arbor to intent; sac'ing veteran to intent is the best thing this deck can do of course. In my experience in playing intent and arbor, considering I'm playing a clean GB mana base without crop rotation bullets, I have to say I'm liking the card a lot. The card requires to plan properly in advance what I want to be tutoring for, but when the path is clear demonic tutor is a nice decent magic card. I changed some stuff in the selection of removal spells I play to make space for more option to tutor with intent: at the moment I'm playing 2 decays, 2 pushes, 2 diabolic edicts, 1 maelstrom pulse (nice bullet to tutor for when facing a JTMS), and 3 deeds. Since everything is tutorable by intent, all these removal spells cover basically every kind of threat we need to eliminate, right?
Since I play 2 intents, finks gains more points even in this regard. Sac'ing finks to intent is a very decent option to have, whereas sac'ing rhinos or even a tracker feels bad.
I left one single scrubland in the maindeck because I think a very very light splash for white sideboard cards is bery beneficial to the deck, and it's basically free.
Canonist is good against all sorts of combo and elves, decks that are quite strong at the moment. Canonist + discard (including hymn) +extraction effects is the worst thing for a storm player. Against storm, after G1 my deck basically becomes deadguy ale with the explorer interaction as a bonus: very low curve (3 cmc max + a single solifuge as the only big win condition), hatebears, discard spells, extraction effects (lost legacy + extirpate). That's basically the strongest combination of cards against combo, and I have been very happy with it so far.
@Ralf: I'll try your jund suggestion when I'm done experimenting with GB stuff.
Gonna go live for a while.
https://www.twitch.tv/arianrhodsidhe
I make no promises as to the quality of this stream, I've never done it before xD
E: we're done. Thoughts later.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Siege Rhino
1 Inferno Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Plains
sb::
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Blood Moon
2 Fatal Push
1 To the Slaughter
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Carpet of Flowers
Did two leagues -- straight bombed the first one with a Nahiri build (basically my last posted list before today). Some MODO problems, misclicks, misplays, floods, etc -- but more than that: the deck just wasn't very good. I'll give fuller thoughts later (ie, why Nahiri is bad), but I wanted to hit the salient points and then have an evening before bed, lol.
For the second one, I tuned up a little bit. I tried out a Kaya, which was good, but I don't think this is the deck for her. I also tried out a 1-of K-Command -- would've been 2-of, but the damn things are expensive on modo and I didn't have the ability to buy it on stream. It didn't come up that often, but when I did draw it, it was pretty good.
Philosophically, the problem that I kept having during the first league was that we kept getting incremental-advantaged-out of the game. Like, I'd look up and my opponent would have 4-5 cards in hand to my 0. Planeswalkers are obviously a huge offender of this -- although unfortunately we can't really run any of those. So I'm trying to figure out how else we can generate incremental advantage -- 2-for-1s, basically. To that end, I'm going to try the above list the next time I get to play. Double Witness, double Kommand. I shaved a Truths from my second list tonight because of space concerns, but I'd actively looking at putting it back in.
Not thrilled with the Decay slots, those might become something more advantage-y, hopefully creature based. The problem is atm that my curve is wonky as hell, so I'm really looking for more 1- or 2- drops, and most of the grindy options are 3+. I almost want to try Glint-Sleeve Siphoner. I'd love to be able to run Bob, but with the way Sneak is constructed there's no way in hell I can get away with it, especially without Top.
I'm also still unhappy with the Rhinos but fear they may be necessary. I'll probably try a list for science at some point with 0 Rhino, 3 Tracker, and see how that goes.
The Rhinos were, for what it's worth, very good on the evening. They won a lot of games, and they filled that midgame hole in a way that only Rhino really has been shown to be able to thus far. Tracker MIGHT be more what we're looking for, though, so I'm going to try that at some point as well -- probably rolling the basic Plains and the Savannah into two more fetches? Unsure. Having 7 basics feels important with this deck...not sure I want to cut one.
Also, Deed is just too damn good. I firmly love the 1-of Deluge main, but I don't think I can be without my 3 Deeds. Every time I'd discarded/used/had countered both of my Deeds, I really just wanted another copy in my deck. Now, the 2nd E.Wit might help with that. But, for now, I'm going back to the 3-1 split.
Also also, thanks to anyone who suffered through my stream. It's not something that I feel I'm good at or will ever be good at, but I have the ability to do it and it'll help the community I guess, so....meh.
So... GB Fit wants to be Rhino Fit and Sneak Fit is slowly morphing into Semi-Rhino Fit..?
Cool.
As for Intents - they're crazy good. I'm playing with the idea of just running 3 in the MD, instead of the 2 copies of Painful Truths I'm running now. When cast early, it's a must-counter (or must-Stifle-that-damn-Explorer-trigger). Lategame it's a I-got-you-now card. It does force you to play a somewhat different game though. Much more like a combo deck - carefully and deliberately. It's probably not for most though.
Have you done any testing with Urborg as a crop rotation target in your max tracker builds? Would let you hold on to fetches longer to maximize value. Possibly something but I always get stuck on the deciding on what to cut part. Not sure what other CR targets you run main and side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael