I absolutely agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenphoenix
But notice that 2x Rafiq is insanely stupid.
Printable View
I absolutely agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenphoenix
But notice that 2x Rafiq is insanely stupid.
Why? Double strike only works once. Only the +1/+1 is cumulative.
Legendary status?
I think, that:was not an irony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Which is why I mentioned it. :DQuote:
Legendary status?
Sadly, there is not much beyond a 6/6 flying, pro:black creature.
Btw: What do you guys think of Ranger of Eos?
Could be neat to fetch 2x Mongoose in the LS-MU/Mirror, but he's a bit slow on his own.
SB-material?
Yes, everyone jump on the "Rafiq sucks" bandwagon and say things that sound wicked cool like "2x Rafiq is insanely stupid" without actually doing any thinking. No wait, that's idiocy too.
Here's a rather simple analysis of Rafiq + Goyf vs. Enforcer + Goyf; instants such as StP aren't included for this matchup. This is a true mirror match in which both players are assumed to have a standard UGw CounterTop Thresh deck. The only difference is that one deck has Enforcer x2 while the other has Rafiq x2. This is an example of symmetry breaking.
Player 1 (P1): Enforcer 6/6 + Goyf 5/6
Player 2 (P2): Rafiq 3/3 + Goyf 5/6
-------------------------------------------
Scenario 1 - No blocking, everything attacks:
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 = 11
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 = 11 Win
Reverse
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 = 11
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win
Result - tie.
-------------------------------------------
Scenario 2 - Blocking allowed:
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 P2 block Goyf with Goyf = 6
P2 Attack 8/4 = 8
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 block Goyf with Goyf = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 win
Reverse
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 + 5/6 = 11
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win
Result - P2 win
-------------------------------------------
Scenario 2a:
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 block Goyf with Goyf = 0
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 = Win
Reverse
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 block Goyf with Goyf = 0
P1 Attack 6/6 = 6
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win
Result - P2 win
-------------------------------------------
Scenario 2b:
P1 Null Attack
P2 Attack 12/7 double block = 0
P1 Null Attack (Creatures Dead)
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Null Attack (Creatures Dead)
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win
Reverse
P2 Attack 12/7 double block = 0
P1 Null Attack (Creatures Dead)
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12
P1 Null Attack (Creatures Dead)
P2 Attack 12/7 = 12 Win
Result - P2 Win
-------------------------------------------
As can be seen, the deck with Rafiq is the clear favorite here. Someone prove me wrong in a way that doesn't involve saying "st00pd noob, Rafiqs are st00pdz!"
Besides the obvious point that the situation you're examining is incredibly narrow, you have to take into account several points against Rafiq:
- Toughness of 3. This makes Rafiq quite susceptible to burn. Enforcer will almost always come down as a 6/6, making it a lot more difficult to remove. This ties in to...
- Weakness on the defensive. While Rafiq is a strong offensive weapon, he doesn't help you stabilize. Enforcer is huge there. This is the primary reason for running Enforcer.
- Lack of pro black. Protection from black is becoming increasingly relevant with Tombstalker getting more play. Against decks like Team America or Eva Green, Enforcer is a bomb. Rafiq is mediocre at best.
Sure, there are points in support of Rafiq. He's not dependent on the graveyard, he presents a slightly faster clock, and he pitches to Force. However, those just don't compare to the strengths of Enforcer. So in general, Rafiq just seems to be a sub-optimal choice.
To add something to b4r0n's list:
Enforcer is very, very good in blocking Tarmo's and Tombstalkers. Rafiq is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
To add something to those two lists : Rafiq is worse at defending. It's especially true against Tombstalker, where Enforcer's pro black really shines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
People seem to forget that Rafiq doesn't fly, so he kinda can't block Tombstalker like ever. Not like Enforcer can block Tombstalker because of pro black, but more like because he can fly. Pro black just makes it pass through it and force a faster clock than the 5/5.Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
We already play better tutors for creatures - BS, Ponder, SDT. This guy is expensive, has little body and has no eva/pro. I would rather find one Mongoose (or Goyf, Enforcer) via cantrip, than two Mongooses (and only them) via this pseudotutor for :4:Quote:
Originally Posted by fallenphoenix
As always - we win due to consistency, cantriping into relevant cards and tempo. Ranger does not offer anything of it: He is bad at tempo, does not cantrip (not to mention pitching) into Force/Grip/CB/land and is inconsistent: as a four-mana drop you dont wanna many of them, as a one-of for late game he is of no use, because all of your Gooses are either dead, neutralised by opposing Goyfs/Enforcers/Stalkers/Naughts/whatever.
We dont play Rafiq, because it does not fly, has no pro/eva and his ability is irrelevant most of the time. This guy sucks even more than Rafiq.
I think that creature base of NQGw is narrowed down to:
core (no-brainers): Mongoose, Pornogoyf
big beats: Mystic Enforcer, Serendib Efreet, Dryad, Naught
utility/big beats: Werebear, Jötun Grunt
utility: Meddling/Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator, Gaddock
There are 8-12 slots for creatures (14 maximally). Eight are occupied by core units.
I am yet to be surprised with viable Dreadnought Thresh. This leads us to removal of Trinket Mage, which is not as good without toolbox and Naught.
Werebear is outclassed by Goyf, Grunt dies too easily, but could be useful in SB. Bear has his use in "old-school" decks packing Geddon and he also speeds up Enforcer and taps for G, but I dont think it is very important.
MM and Gaddock are both sideboard material at best.
Quirion Dryad is bad topdeck, sorta card we cannot afford.
Predator is good at what it does, but he is terribly slow at beating (esp. with his cc), so we limit his numbers to two-three between MD and SB.
Serendib Efreet outright sucks when compared to Enforcer, but his unreliability on GY and the facts that he always flies, is in our primary color, does not need two colors to be summoned, pitches to FoW and that he fills the hole at cc :3: for CB, these facts could be enough to justify him. (But then there is Smother that kills the Efreet, 3/4 vs 6/6 etc..)
Enforcer, with all his pros and cons is still the best creature for our purposes and what is most important - both on offense and in defense. (Mongoose, Predator and Efreet little bit lose their strength as game proccedes...) OK, he lacks some filigrane aspects like built-in Disenchant, Ph. Arena, manaproduction, biting in upkeep, or anything... but his combat strentgh is not to be overlooked.
And he survives Dev. Dreams for 5, where every other creature, sometimes even Goyf, would die..
I think that the deck does not need another critter... We are happy with Mongooses, Goyfs, Predators and Enforcers. Configuration of 4/4/2/2 (or 4/4/2, be it Predator or Enfie) is the best, imho.
The situation I'm examining is not extremely narrow. I illustrated that particular match up because it was supposed to be the match up most strongly in favor of Enforcer and it turned out to be in favor of the Rafiq. Other Rafiq + X match ups work out in a similar manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
As to Rafiq's vulnerability to lightning bolt or other removal here are a few other creatures from DTB's that are similarly vulnerable:
Dark Confidant
Sea Drake
Painter's Servant
Vexing Shusher
etc.
Nobody questions their inclusion in these other decks. Besides this fact, Lightning Bolt is one of the easiest things to counter in a CounterTop deck. Also, the usage of Lightning Bolt in serious contenders in the Legacy meta is very limited - it is seen in UGr thresh and Imperial Painter. Other removal is similarly limited - you will see Gempalm Incinerator in Goblins but the default decklist uses this as only a 2-of. Diabolic Edict is seen in U/b/x Landstill but ALL creatures are potential victims of it, plus it is also easily countered by CounterTop or normal counters. Seismic Assault appears in Aggro Loam but an extra land discarded (easy to do) to this enchantment will kill a Goyf or Enforcer too. Ghastly Demise is seen in UGb Thresh but this can reasonably work on a Goyf as well, not to mention the fact that it is also easy to counter with CounterTop. StP will kill just about anything except a Goose so I shouldn't have to mention it either.
Weakness on the defensive is only a weakness if you don't have a strong offense. Being unable to block a Tombstalker doesn't matter if you force your opponent to the following decision: "Do I keep attacking with my 5/5 even though his Goyf will do 10 dmg per turn or do I block and pray for an answer to be drawn?" Clearly the Tombstalker is an underdog to even a modestly sized 4/5 Goyf when Rafiq is on board. By keeping the pressure up on the opponent even a strong beater such as the stalker can be made to crumple. Besides, UGw is Aggro/Control - saying Tombstalker is a threat to UGw thresh assumes that: 1) It wasn't countered 2) You don't hold a StP or O-ring 3) You can't field a 5/6 Goyf and/or a Rafiq anytime soon. For all three conditions to be true you would likely have been playing with a hand you should have mulled in the first place. Even if your Goyf trades with his Tombstalker (it is unlikely for you to have a Goyf as weak as 3/4, but I'll go with that for the moment) you will be swinging with Rafiq for 8 the next turn.
The whole "Enforcer is very, very good in blocking Tarmo's" was covered in my longer post above - the "and Tombstalkers" bit was just covered.
first of all, if the person i am playing against is playing lightning bolt, i am happy, that seems like a good matchup. Second mystic enforcer seems better except for not being pitchable to force.
on a different note, what would you sideboard against ad nauseum and in general how does the matchup play out?
Can this Rafiq thing get dropped please? Run him if you want. But remeber it doesn't have shroud, and is not big in the ass like Goyf and Enforcer. The examples given are kind of narrow, I mean a cycled Gempalm Incinerator with a couple of gobos sends this guy packing.
Since there are attacking demos out why not blocking demos also. It really coems down to if you need a creature to block and kill an attacker do you want a 3/3 or 6/6?? There's been quite a few times I needed Enforcer to keep me alive for the W. Just saying.
Edit: Why is everyone mentioning pitching to FOW as a reason to include Rafiq?? You should be playing at least 22 blue cards.
Because they have Weirdings now, which is a lot better. Also, you go under the assumption that you will always have CB+Top from the way you talk about removal in other decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethan
In a black deck packed with hand destruction and land destruction, it isn't impossible that you have too few lands to cast a counter, O-Ring, or STP or that you didn't discard them in the first few turns. So then Rafiq costs 4 and requires all of the decks colors. An early Tombstalker on the table is viable and scary. It'll take time for you to catch up sometimes. You mention that if you can't stop that Stalker, it's probably a hand you should have mulled, but that makes discard a bit scarier, not to mention you may be getting a hand that's even worse. Just sayin.Quote:
Weakness on the defensive is only a weakness if you don't have a strong offense. Being unable to block a Tombstalker doesn't matter if you force your opponent to the following decision: "Do I keep attacking with my 5/5 even though his Goyf will do 10 dmg per turn or do I block and pray for an answer to be drawn?" Clearly the Tombstalker is an underdog to even a modestly sized 4/5 Goyf when Rafiq is on board. By keeping the pressure up on the opponent even a strong beater such as the stalker can be made to crumple. Besides, UGw is Aggro/Control - saying Tombstalker is a threat to UGw thresh assumes that: 1) It wasn't countered 2) You don't hold a StP or O-ring 3) You can't field a 5/6 Goyf and/or a Rafiq anytime soon. For all three conditions to be true you would likely have been playing with a hand you should have mulled in the first place. Even if your Goyf trades with his Tombstalker (it is unlikely for you to have a Goyf as weak as 3/4, but I'll go with that for the moment) you will be swinging with Rafiq for 8 the next turn.
You should not analyse Rafiq as in the same page as all those creatures you mentioned, except for Sea Drake. All those are utility (or combo, in Painter's case), not defense or offense. None of those would improve your board position in a way you can stop the opponent's offensive or in a way you can rush into your opponent's neck. They provide advantage through different ways. It's like comparing Mishra's Factory with Volrath's Stronghold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethan
You're examining a board position of Rafiq + Goyf versus Rafiq + Enforcer with even life totals and no removal. How is that not narrow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethan
And there's a good reason for that: none of those creatures are playing the same role that Enforcer/Rafiq would play in Threshold. Enforcer/Rafiq are finishers. That kind of entails slightly different criteria for consideration than a Painter's Servant or a Vexing Shusher would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethan
Maybe you're playing Threshold differently than I am, but I often find myself using Enforcer to block. It's bigger than most other creatures in the format (minus Dreadnaughts and Terravores), so it deters attacks or serves as a solid blocker. Rafiq can be used to block too... but he's most likely to die. Not so hot. And not what you want from a finisher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethan
I think what you're missing is that you often won't be able to drop Rafiq and just race your opponent. You're right, Thresh is aggro/control. But that means that it's able to easily switch between those roles. Enforcer is conducive to that. Rafiq is not. That's all I'm saying. And you're more than welcome to play Rafiq, that's your call. I'm just telling you that from my experience with Rafiq, Enforcer, and Threshold in general, it's generally going to be a sub-optimal choice.
How about a Silver Knight with a Jitte (two counters) and a Mother of Runes? Most real agro decks are going to kill you if you think that Rafiq being a decent offense is a good defense. Seriously, it'll get you killed by WW, or even D+T, matches that should be won, but won't be because you played the sub-par creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethan
In that situation he'll just block your goyf and snuff out/plow/bolt/whatever the rafiq. In that situation enforcer simply goes in for six each turn and can't even be blocked by the tombstalker.
I was about to write exactly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
Last note - as Jaiminho wrote, Rafiq does not fly. Enforcer flies.
Enforcer > Hyppie, Stalker, SoFIed Serendib.
Rafiq > Dwarven Vigilante, Folk of the Pines, Brood of Cockroaches.
Play whatever you want.
The examples given for why Rafiq was "good" were biased a bit, putting Rafiq in the best possible light.
For one, both players started at 20. Starting at 18 (using just two fetches... probably pretty likely), Enforcer becomes an unassisted three turn clock, making it much better. More power is better, obviously, but in most games, 8 gives the same 3 turn clock as 6.
For two, Rafiq is pretty much only good in the situation where he's alone or with one big swing partner that the double strike can really help on. If the situation is confounded by a third creature, like goyf mongoose + Rafiq against Enforcer goyf mongoose, it's clear who comes out on top. As a corollary, Rafiq becomes much worse when your opponent can chump you. Enforcer is hard to chump.
Enforcer pros:
Beats black and every deck that relies on black removal (like Survival).
Can act as a big wall when you play him.
Better with 2 other creatures in play.
Better against bolt/incinerator/Jitte/Flamebreak (which nobody mentioned I don't think until now).
+3 life when Swordsed.
Better when your opponent can wall you out or chain chump.
It's conceivable that you have plains forest wasteland wasteland. Or your opponent played Eladamri's Vineyard and you have Plains Wasteland. Ok, now I'm just getting ridiculous.
Rafiq pros:
Better when the opponent has 19 or more life in a clock race. Or 13-16 life. Or 7-8 life.
Pitches to Force of Will (also vulnerable to Red Elemental Blast and can't block Piledriver, but nobody mentions THOSE).
Better if you don't have Threshold before turn 5.
Better with a Goyf partner of 5 power or better when your opponent can't chump.
Let me know if you can think of anything else for either one, I tried to make a complete list. Obviously some of these are more important than others (like I think beating black is really important), so don't just add up the plusses.