If you are playing against an opponent game 1, no idea of what they are playing, on the play. What is the better turn 1?
Chalice at 1
Trinisphere
Blood moon/Magus
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If you are playing against an opponent game 1, no idea of what they are playing, on the play. What is the better turn 1?
Chalice at 1
Trinisphere
Blood moon/Magus
That depends on the amount of mana available in your hand. I imagine that if you can play turn 1 Trinisphere and follow it up the next turn with chalice at 1, that that's the correct play. If you don't have enough mana for that, Trinisphere is still the correct lead-off card, followed by Magus instead of chalice.
Assuming you have three mana turn one, Tinisphere first. If it resolves, you'll have a better time landing the others. Moon next if your land was a City as Moon allows you to drop all three disruption pieces while playing land. If it's a Tomb and you're opponent plays a basic land that isn't a Forest, then Chalice. There are few, if any, mono green decks, so it's probably a splash color or Aggro Loam. If they lead with a dual, fetch, or other non-basic, play Moon second turn.
I felt 3sphere would normally be the strongest play against an unkown... Here is a little more puzzlings:
If you have a hand such: City/Magus/jitte/mox/ssg/Song/chalice
Against an unknown do you:
a: Lead with City, mox(imprint ssg), song, chalice, magus
b: Lead with City,mox(imprint ssg), song, magus, jitte
c: Lead with City, mox(imprint ssg), song, magus, chalice
How does the more experienced players with the deck feel about the qty of 3spheres main? Is 3 enough with 1 in the boad? Ive been playing with 3 trini, 3 blood moon main, and the extra of esach in the board. Im also running jitte, and akroma(playing the long game against control makes her huge and it is possible to morph her turn 2). Does equipment really have a home still?
0 is the correct number of 3-spheres in the maindeck, unless your meta has no aggro and is mostly Thresh and combo. Otherwise I'd run three since it gives you a good chance of seeing one without too high a chance of seeing multiples.
Assuming this is turn one on the play, I'd do A since the number of decks wrecked by moon is higher than the number of decks wrecked by Chalice, and A means they're more likely to counter the Chalice instead of the moon.
Jitte is still a House, regardless of the metagame. I loyally run 2 at all times, with the third in the sideboard (I hate drawing a second in Hellbent). Currently, there's nothing superior we're not running to play Jitte.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
I have to disagree, I run no Jitte's at all, MB or SB. To me that slot is better occupied by a dude. Jitte is a dead card with nothing to equip it to and really only improves a few match's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayk0l
3Sphere is really good against a lot of decks and while drawing a 2nd one can be a bitch, it's no worse than drawing a 2nd Jitte. Plus if you have to you can just play the 2nd sphere where as the only way to get rid of a 2nd Jitte is to discard it to Raiders or play it and blow up both equipment.
****The following suggestions are just that, suggestions, I am not stating these cards are auto includes in DS and still require more testing.****
I have been testing some new cards in the MB of DS, the y seem to have a positive effect on the deck and while they still require more testing I think there worth mentioning.
The first is, IMO, the better of the two, Threaten. At :2::r: it fits the curve of the deck and serves a vital purpose. Getting rid of an opposing blocker is nice, being able to swing with it is even better. I have bee running 2 in the MB in place of 1x Trinisphere and 1x Taurean Mauler.
The second looks like its turning out to be more, "win more" then anything else. Double Cleave is basically a red Berserk for :1::wr:, it is a really nice trick with Gathan Raider. 2 cards in hand, swing with my morph, pitch one card to un-morph raiders, Double cleave, Take 10! Works well with just about any creature really, Slogger will do 8, Pit Dragon 6+, you get the idea.
So let me know what you think, if you do test these two cards LMK how it goes.
****The following suggestions are just that, suggestions, I am not stating these cards are auto includes in DS and still require more testing.****
To quote myself, threaten was a consideration here for me, but grab the reins shows promise as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
The problem I have with Grab the Reins is that it doesn't untap the creature you are stealing and if you want to use it with entwine it will cost you :5::r::r:, 7 mana is a little tough for this deck. I think that Threaten is a better choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruenor
I think you had your trinispheres in the slots people usually run Jittes, which to me seems perfectly acceptable since you said you have a lot of storm in your meta. This is not, however, what the normal meta looks like so I just want to point out that they are working so well for you because they are a good meta-call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
(just so someone doesn't get confused, play trinis in a "normal" meta and be disappointed, abandon the deck and start playing Standard or god-knows-what)
Ehem. Where was I?
Oh Yeah!
"If you have a hand such: City/Magus/jitte/mox/ssg/Song/chalice
Against an unknown do you:
a: Lead with City, mox(imprint ssg), song, chalice, magus
b: Lead with City,mox(imprint ssg), song, magus, jitte
c: Lead with City, mox(imprint ssg), song, magus, chalice"
1st: try to suppress that smile :D
A is correct. Here's why:
Chalice=1 & Magus of the Moon on the go is one of the most broken openings in this format. It's practically the same as a lethal Tendrils to the face.
From these two, the generally more broken is the Magus. That's why you "bait" with Chalice. But there is more; if the opponent has, let's say a fetchland, and you were on the draw, playing it like this makes it impossible for them to fetch in response, float W and send the poor Magus farming.
(or U and blast him)
And to the first one:
"If you are playing against an opponent game 1, no idea of what they are playing, on the play. What is the better turn 1?
Chalice at 1
Trinisphere
Blood moon/Magus"
To me this depends on the mana you have. If you have to pitch SSG to be able to Trini, and you'd then be left with only 2 mana to work with barring topdecks, I WOULD NOT lead with trini. This deck is inconsistent as fuck, and we, the players should acknowledge that. I for one, do not trust my topdecks more than I have to. So I would lead with Chalice-1, and then follow it up with either magus or trini, depending on what the opp. played.
Notice that the opening is still a very, very strong one.
I btw second that the correct number of md trinis in a "normal" metagame is zero. 2-3 in the sb should do the trick.
EDIT: You know what Wallace? I think I'll just take those Threatens, put them where I had my Jittes and go beat some randoms on MWS :) I'll let you know if anything amusing happens.
Grab the Reins: the abilities are not good enough for the cost. Fling or threaten are better because they can be played much easier.
Threaten: Really what creatures are you stealing. The only thing I can see that's worth it on a consistent basis is Goyf, and even that isn't worth it. DS creatures trade with goyf, even the 2/2s provided you have equips. It's just too worthless in many situations.
Jitte: It's best against lower level and janky decks. Ya know the ones DS has it's most problems with. Specifically aggro (ie Goblins) and Burn are the more notable decks I can think of that get wrecked by jitte. I think Jitte is important to make the low powered creatures big and the only other removal MD is Slogger. Personally I run 24 creatures and 2 jittes. I never have a problem with attaching it or drawing too many. In fact the only times I've drawn 2 I could discard it to a raiders or the first was countered/destroyed.
Im not sure on how I feel about nix'ing trinisphere from the main. This is my thought process:
1. Our mana curve is designed to abuse trinisphere
2. Blood moon turn 1 is a waste if you are not playing a multi colored deck, where 3sphere is not
3. Where I play(CT), there is a ton of control, painter, threshold. Which I would expect to see all over the place, which 3sphere is still strong against.
4. Turn 1 chalice, and 3sphere busts heads
5. I would rather have trini main and have more removal in the board
thats all I can think of for now, but I am sure there are many more justifications for at least maindecking 2....
1. DS is designed to abuse :2: mana lands, blood moon, seething song, chalice, etc. It works well with 3shpere but is not based around it. A deck based on 3phere would be stax where you can reliably keep your opponent under :3: mana.
2. Blood moon kills so many top tier decks it's worth the turn 1 play. 3shpere often only is a speed bump which can be over come quickly and is terrible after turn 2.
3. 3sphere is not good against control. Depending on the build its not good against painter. It is good against thresh, but typically moons and chalices hurt more.
4. I agree 3spere is very good turn 1 on the play, but how often will you get that play. There are better options that don't suck when you top deck them after turn 2. They do have a place against certain decks and thus worthy of a SB slot, but not MD unless your meta really warrants it.
5. 4x pyrokinesis SB plus 2x jitte and 4x slogger MD is enough removal.
At 2x it's not going to get you the broken starts that you want, and will make just about every match up worse when drawing it late... except of course combo which will be made slightly better.
:confused: ... You wanna say that one more time?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrtyDozen13
Trinisphere makes FoW, Brainstorm, Ponder, StP, Daze, Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Thoughtseize, Stifle, Snuff Out, and many other cards cost 3 in the control MU. IDK about you but I think that kind of makes your statement un-true.
Lets not even get into how good 3sphere is against Storm based combo decks, Burn and Goyf Sligh. I mean Goblins is no where near as popular as it used to be and other straight aggro see little to no play. So I don't really see how Jitte is even needed any more. I have been running DS for the last 2 months, without Jitte, and I seem to be doing fairly well with it. I'm just talking about just in my local meta either, I just missed top 8 in Hadley and if it weren't for a bad MU followed by a great 3 games against B/G Sui that I ended up losing, I would have Top 8'ed the $1000 event in Syracuse.
IDK, to me Jitte is useless by it's self, i.e. nothing to equip it to, and is better suited as a 3sphere, which is almost always useful.
3Sphere sucks against control. Against Aggro-control, on the otherhand, it's a house. Landstill could pretty much give a shit about paying three mana for Brainstorm or StP. The really important cards (Wrath, Deed, etc) cost three or more anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
3sphere is not good against control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
Highlighted: cards that control decks play (sometimes they play Stifle too, but its best use against DS is pitching to FoW).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
Trinisphere is (only) good against control when you have a play that positively wins the game if it resolves. In the case of Dragon Stompy, that applies only if you're going against a deck that scoops to Blood Moon. If they don't, Trinisphere is going to only mildly slow them down, whereas Equipment, while not particularly awesome either, can very well turn the game around by upgrading a random Simian Spirit Guide / Magus of the Moon / Sulfur Elemental / fresh Taurean Mauler into a serious threat demanding removal, instead of something that gets blocked by Factory.
Now, consider that ScoopsToMoon.dec = OK to good MU; NotScoopsToMoon.dec = god-awful MU, and I think you should see why Trinisphere is one of your least exciting cards against control overall.
Control is too broad for that statement to be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrtyDozen13
Against 'blue control' elements such as counter spells and cheap card draw, Trinisphere is decent. Assuming it resolves, it cuts off some of their early disruption and makes the rest harder to use by limiting the amount of spells per untap.
Against 'board control' elements such as Deed, Shackles, Swords, and Wrath, Trinisphere isn't very good at all. That disruption comes after your threats, ergo, later in the game when they have more mana. Most 'scary' board control cards cost at least three mana, making Trinisphere irrelevant.
I suppose it is a pretty broad statement, but in gerneral is true. Decent = not good, thanks for agreeing with me. MUC doesn't care about 3sphere because the only free counters it uses are FoW, doesn't use cantrips, and uses FoF for draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrtyDozen13
Actually, Trinisphere is awesome against any deck running blue because it drastically slows down their gameplan to basically a spell a turn. Turn one Trinisphere means that you can now cast your best spells in the next 2 turns without the threat of getting hit with counterspells and place your opponent on the defensive even more. Also, if you're having trouble with Blue, sideboard Boil.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrtyDozen13