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So my major concern remains... what does the deck do against Leyline of Sanctity? You could say "lots of speedy creatures" or "burn a lot before it hits the table" but neither of these is realistic for consistency. As soon as it hits from the opening hand, the game is pretty much over.
And what're the plans for Countertop?
Play fetches, taigas, and manamorphose so you can board Krosan Grip. Then you have a chance against counterbalance too.
all is dust in the sideboard? Ratchet Bomb is probably the best option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evermint
Sulfuric Vortices, Flame Rift over Keldon Marauders, SB in Shushers and take out bolts/fireblast.
in many people's current build, the white leyline hitting the table would probably be game over. however, if you're actually facing decks that use the white leyline, the deck is probably going to be enchantress and i would actually sideboard in anarchy. i've been playing burn in my environment for the past 6 months and been getting good results but I still haven't seen anybody board in the white leyline just against burn so I wouldn't worry about it too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evermint
countertop you have to get lucky and hope they don't get the softlock on turn 2. some people like using vexing shusher and I like using boseiju. but if countertop does make a huge resurgance i might consider playing 4 urza's rage and 4 fallouts.
I think the best weapons against a sideboarded Leyline of Sanctity are these:Quote:
Originally Posted by Evermint
Sulfuric Vortex (should have 4 somewhere between main and side)
Volcanic Fallout (horribly inefficient but uncountereable)
Ratchet Bomb (slow, but will eventually hit 4 counters for the leyline)
That's a tough card to deal with, but you can also work around it by using more 'burn' creatures maindeck (Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, Spark Elemental, even Hell's Thunder to a certain extent.) If you expect to see a lot of Leyline of Sancitity, I would go with a creature-heavy maindeck with Vortex x4 somewher in the main/side.
As far as countertop goes...Vexing Shusher should be in your sideboard in some number, and I use Magus of the Moon in my sideboard to keep early Counterbalances off the table.
I am still playing (and thinking that its the optimum of a modern Burn-deck) the list of kyle miller. I only replaced 2 Mountains with 2 Fetchlands and I am still very happy with the whole deck and each part of it.
I played against Leyline of Sanctitiy in Death and Taxes and StaXXX and It was only a problem against StaXXX because creatures arent really the way to go and a experienced player (or someone who is familiar with your build) will let the anti-creep cards in and rely on his Leyline. Against Death and Taxes you just burn his guys and Run over him, I like to board out Fireblast and Lavaspike for additional creatures and Volcanic Fallout and recognized its VERY doable. I thin the iggest problem is Enchantress against which I just loose. Pyrostatic Pillar could help you out a bit as well.
I think if you assume a heavy white meta with a lot of that shitty leyline I would propably just cast Anarchy and play more basic mountains (8 to be exact). I think that this deck is still a great choice and has so many very good matchups (Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins to name the Tier) and I wouldnt do some crazy stuff (which is based on desperation if you are honest:laugh:) to splash more than one Taiga or Plateau to get rid of annoying enchantemnts.
Greetings
Ratchet bomb from this list is the only thing that will matter. Burn won't be able to win through a leyline because it's very unlikely you'll have enough nontargetted damaging spells you have. You'll just be trying so hard and be slow that whatever deck you're playing against will be able to set up a much, much better position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Shusher seems reasonable I suppose, however I'm not convinced that it's actually the answer vs. counterbalanace that you want, because it might not actually stick around. I say this because there's a good chance that the counterbalance player won't have very much to board against you or even if they would their creature removal is still relevant since you're trying to get damage through in some way through creatures already. Additionally a shusher with a counterbalance online means everything costs one more and slows you down quite a bit. Yes, it can get there, but I'd be more inclined to get something with perhaps a little more utility and reliability...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I still advocate krosan grip, though many are probably not inclined to splash. It'll almost certainly deal with counterbalance, leylines, chalices, or any other random things you find yourself needing it against. However, shusher or pyroblasts are probably your next best choices.
Also, Magus can be a strong card I think but I think it's a little misguided to use to stop an "early" counterbalance, because balance is going to come down before your magus if it's ever in the countertop player's opening hand.
Most of my comments were geared toward Leyline of Sanctity, which only cares about targeted damage. Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental can just attack for damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Most CounterTop players I've run against do NOT get a turn 2 Counterbalance. Most of the time they end up using up their Forces/Dazes in turns 1-2 and Counterbalance is their mid-game lock. This has allowed me to get Magus of the Moon down early enough to matter. Non-land acceleration can really help with this (Simian Spirit Guide and Chrome Mox) especially Chrome Mox, as it can be used on redundant Sulfuric Vortex's or on cards that become blanked by opponent's permanents (Leyline of Sanctity, Chalice of the Void @1) The acceleration I've used for the most part is Rite of Flame, but I'm really eyeballing Chrome Mox.
I'm really debating the inclusion of Chrome Mox in Burn again...it creates card disadvantage but makes for explosive starts. I've tried Rite of Flame in variants before, but they end up being blanked by Chalice @1 as well.
Regardless, my point is that if your metagame calls for 3 mana proactive measures, then acceleration will become neccessary (Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide) so you can viably get your stuff out early (Sulfuric Vortex, Blood Moon.) Braid of Fire seems like it has some really good potential as well, albeit only for instant speed burn spells like Bolt/Magma Jet. It would open up and make cards like Flame Javelin a lot easier, although I'm not sure it's worth any slots with Fireblast being a lot better.
Thoughts? Am I way off base here? Also, how do you feel about Crack the Earth or Misguided Rage as hate for a 'free' Leyline?
Chrome MoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
This call would most likely be dependent on your particular build. I have been playing a list it is posted on this thread. It is comment number 1500. I would personally suggest against the inclusion of chrome mox. It as you stated allows for explosive starts, but at the expense of your mid-late game. In my experience mid-late game is turns 4-6 for this deck. If you run out of gas you are done. It gives your opponent time to recover, gain life, or smash your face in. I think the loss of two cards (the mox could be burn; and the imprinted card) that could be pointed at your foe's dome is a poor choice.
Crack the Earth and Misguided Rage
I guess these could potentially work in the correct situation. They are just very situational. If you don't get a turn one crack the earth when you are on the play, your opponent could just sac a land. Same argument goes for the misguided rage. By the time you cast it they could just sac a land. I would opt for the 1-2 Taiga in the main, which would be tutorable by fetches. I would also run Krosan Grip. I would use this route because it uses less spaces in the sideboard and is the best as far as flexibility goes. Grip can solve many problems that hurt this deck. You might have to wait an extra turn to play your burn, but by then you will have land to unload your hand savagely.
Chrome Mox's usefulness is predicated solely on the idea that you would need the acceleration to play 3 mana proactive cards, like Blood Moon. You would want 4 Blood Moons available, maybe even playing 2-4 Magus of the Moon as well. Chrome Mox makes it happen by turn 2 (early enough to count) and Mox can use redundant Blood Moon's to imprint. Another great target for Mox is a 2nd Sulfuric Vortex. Again, the whole premise is if you need 3 mana protection, you need acceleration. Mox seems like the best option because of it's resilience to Wasteland, and most players won't counter Mox...they will hold their counterspells for business cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
The only other truly viable acceleration method would be Simian Spirit Guide, which isn't a bad option at all. At best it will allow a turn 2 Vortex/Blood Moon, or free Chain Lightnings/Lightning Bolst. At worst, it's a 2/2 beater for 3 mana.
As far as running out of gas, I'm fairly certain that's what Grim Lavamancer in the mid-game is for. I'm actually playtesting 2x Grims and 1x Cursed Scroll in my deck. I'm also still trying to pull off Shrapnel Blast, and Chrome Mox and Cursed Scroll go a long way to making it more viable.
Crack the Earth was based on the idea of having an opponent sacrifice their only permanent in play (Leyline of Lifeforce, as in the Dredge matchup). Yes you would need it turn 1, for sure. You would need 4 definately, and you may have to mulligan aggressively. I think you're right about splashing for a Taiga in order to play Grip in the sideboard. If a builder were so inclined, they could play a playset of Manamorphose as well, and build the deck on a 56 card basis rather than 60. Not sure how effective that approach would be, but it has potential for fixing color without opening up to Wasteland susceptability (for K-Grip in the board.)
I've also toyed around with some super-secret ninja tech, and I'm going to have to ask you to keep this secret: Mindstorm Crown. Haha, I'm just kidding. I've used it in casual decks, but at 3 mana, it really isn't any better than Phyrexian Arena, and most likely the better option is 4x Magma Jet (as has been stated) or Sensei's Divining Top for library manipulation.
@Mr. Safety
Chrome Mox
I am fully aware of the rationale for wanting to use Chrome Mox in a burn deck. Again your logic is situational. Playing a turn 2 Blood Moon or Sulfuric Vortex is decent at best. You are giving up significant card avantage to do this. My question is as follows: "With what burn will you finish off you opponent?" Your suggested scenario leaves you with 2 cards in hand if you are on the play and 3 cards if you are on the draw (presupposing you play a turn one bolt). It seems to me like an explosive start leading to a dearth of mid to late game. It just seems bad to me. You won't be able to fetch to deck thin in the case of Blood Moon and then Price of Progress will hurt you more than they should. In the case of the vortex it might be able to seal the deal, but that is a 10 turn clock (and a 10 turn clock starting on turn 2). In my opinion you should be trying to get the job done faster. The argument of the mox being resilient to Wasteland is a moot point seeing as your lands are mostly if not all mountians and fetches. Wasteland should not be a concern of this deck.
Simian Spirit Guide
1. Card Disadvantage/Mana Production
I would consider this over the mox because it allows for quick mana acceleration without causing as much card disadvantage. I would still disagree with SSG because it dilutes your amount of burn in the deck. It would allow for explosive starts but then what are you going to do mid to late game? Top deck and hope. With my experience these don't win this deck games.
2. Creature?
As for a 2/2 beater for 3... that is terrible in this deck. Even if you play a turn one mox and get your turn two SSG... you played an over costed Grizzly Bear in a deck that is supposed to be fast. This creature will probably be staring down a goyf or other big nasty. Again this just seems like a poor call. That is also neglecting that this deck plays few creatures in effort to nullify the removal an opponent will be playing.
Grim Lavamancer
What can I say? When he works he is awesome. More often in my experience he is nuked before he is active and is a wasted play which slows the deck down as a whole. Sure he gives the deck some reach late game, but he has to stay alive and lets face it he dies to nearly every piece of removal that is played in the format. I personally don't like playing him. He gives your opponent a target for removal and tends to be a wasted play. This is probably more of a player to player call though. If you like him run with him. I know this forum has been historically torn on his inclusion.
Cursed Scroll
Scroll gives late game reach to the deck. Counter point would be scroll is slow. This is probably another player call. I think it is clunky and non-optimal. But that is my opinion.
Manamorphose
This would be a decent replacement for Taiga. It color fixes which is what we are really looking for, it does it for free, and replaces itself. The only problem I see is fitting it in the deck. What would you cut for it? In the main it really serves no purpose game one. It can cantrip you into another spell but what about when you draw a land and don't get any damage for the turn? I would need convincing on this one.
Mindstorm Crown
I actually used to play this in my casual burn build before I tweaked it up to be legacy oriented. It could work I guess. It just seems clunky to me because you would invest you 3 mana on a draw option that could have been game winning burn. I am not saying it won't work, but I am very skeptical. This slot should really be Wheel of Fortune (my personal opinion), too bad it is banned.
I hope this helps and that this post doesn't paint me as an ass. I am just trying to help. I am interested in your responses.
I agree with you in every card :)
Very good points
Is Wheel of Fate an option?
My current list:
4 x Great Furnace
14 x Mountain
1 x Cursed Scroll
2 x Pyrite Spellbomb
2 x Fireblast
3 x Flame Rift
4 x Hellspark Elemental
4 x Keldon Marauders
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Magma Jet
2 x Reckless Abandon
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Shrapnel Blast
4 x Spark Elemental
Is there anything that is 'glaring' at you that should be changed?
Chain Lighting?
@ Gocho
Thanks! I am glad you agree!
@ Mr. Safety
Wheel of Fortune is banned in legacy. So it is not an option. Sure is awesome in casual though; that was just some wishful thinking in my above post.
Spark Elemental
I would definitely change the Spark Elemental to Chain Lightning. The elemental in my opinion is not the best call. Turn one he may be basically another Lightning Bolt, but after turns 2-3 against many decks he will not deal damage. I would suggest Chain Lightning because it is another 3 damage for 1 mana spell. Also you get into the issue of running enough creature for your opponent's removal to matter and be useful. Hellspark Elemental can sometimes get around the removal issue if he is not killed by Swords to Plowshare or Path to Exile. Due to unearth. This could be another possible replacement. Unearth is also useful in counter heavy match ups because the unearth cannot be countered. If it is stifled you can always just do it again the following turn. Also it adds some late game reach to the deck.
Keldon Marauders
Personally I am torn of Keldon Marauders. It is a great turn 2 play because of the opportunity to get the 5 damage for 2 mana. However in the mid to late game he doesn't seal the deal against aggro or aggro/control. He is decent because there is no reason for your opponent to remove him. He will vanish out quickly and when he does leave it hurts your opponent. Which is good in a Burn deck's strategy to play few creatures (or creatures your opponent won't bother to remove). I think he is a decent call. But depending on your play style and meta there could be better options. I have personally gone to Hellspark Elemental in his slot.
Reckless Abandon
I am not sold on this one either. In a deck that runs few creatures it is a bit lack luster. I am sure in the right case it might be awesome, but it would seem to me that wouldn't be too often. The decklist only has 12 creatures 4 of which vanish and the other 8 sac at end of turn.
Shrapnel Blast
Many people have tried to make this work for quite some time now. The problem I see with this card is that it is dependent on you playing artifacts in a deck that doesn't need them. This results in diluting your burn spell ratio. I see 7 artifacts in you build and 4 shrapnel blasts. To ensure being able to cast the Shrapnel Blast you would probably want at least 8-10 artifacts. The problem with that is you then would have to dip into either more artifact lands, spellbombs, or scrolls. In my opinion none of these are ideal options. You will either dilute your ability to burn effectively, disrupt your own mana base, or clog your hand.
1. Artifact Lands: My opinion is that they shouldn't be in the deck because they open you up to Wasteland. This deck traditionally runs few lands in the 18-20 range. So being wastelanded is probably not a good thing. If you went the Darksteel Citadel route, you shoot yourself in the foot because you aren't making red mana.
2. Pyrite Spellbomb: While they cantrip, this seems subpar to building the deck efficiently in the first place. And you are getting 2 damage for 2 mana. Not the most efficient in the damage department. I guess if your opponent is playing Silver Knight it might be okay.
3. Cursed Scroll: Already discussed above. It offers late game stability, while being slow. Adding more would more than likely clog otherwise explosive hands.
I would suggest adding the following:
Price of Progress
This cards singlehandedly wins games in this format. I rarely sideboard this card out and it usually gets me 6-8 damage for 2 mana. Efficient and instant speed. It is extra devastating in conjunction with Fireblast. I have on multiple occasions been able to score turn 3 wins due to the afore mentioned cards used together netting 10 damage. This may conflict with the shrapnel blast option as you are running artifact lands and will hurt you as well. I still think Price of Progress is superior. My opinion: PoP + Mountain >>> Shrapnel Blast + Great Furnace.
Chain Lightning
You need this card. It makes the deck more consistent. Outlined above.
Goblin Guide
This is a personal choice. I like the speed that you can get 4-6 damage with him. This 4-6 can be drastically game altering. Late game he can chump goyfs and keep you alive an extra turn. Try him out sometime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Wheel of FATE, dude, not Wheel of Fortune. It's the one from time spiral with suspend.
I see your reasoning, and it works out. The reason for me running so many creatures? Reckless Abandon x2. The reason for AVOIDING Chain Lightning? Budget, plain and simple. Price of Progress is indeed great tech, it just took a backseat to Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental for the opportunity to play Reckless Abandon. I see all of your points...but if you take Chain Lightning and Price of Progress out of the picture for options, I think I have a fairly optimal list. *virtual shrug* I don't play in any tournaments anyways (that may be a vital piece of information for you...)
My deck isn't really doing that bad in testing...but I agree with you fundamentally. Spells are more important than creatures. If I want creatures, use a sligh list with Goyf. I've heard it mentioned several times that 'burn isn't a real deck'. That is sad, considering what it can do.
Wheel of Fate
I think this is too slow for this deck plain and simple. You should have your opponent burnt to a crisp by the point you would be getting new cards off of the wheel.
Budget Burn
Well I would agree that if you are trying to build on a budget, you build is solid.
Final Thoughts
I think burn has many good match ups currently; however, with the banning of survival, I think we will be seeing a return to Countertop Decks (among other "safe" builds). I think the problem a lot of the time is that burn decks are not optimized and are piloted by individuals that don't know what they should be doing with them. So Burn, as a deck, may get a big NOOB label because of this. This is not entirely accurate. If the player knows the deck and their meta, he can win consistently with this deck.
Revised list, just for reference. Once I come into some Chain Lightnings, I'll make the direct swap in place of Spark Elemental. That means Reckless Abandon leaves for Flame Rift OR Price of Progress.
4 x Great Furnace
13 x Mountain
2 x Chrome Mox
2 x Fireblast
4 x Hellspark Elemental
4 x Keldon Marauders
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Magma Jet
2 x Reckless Abandon
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Shrapnel Blast
4 x Spark Elemental
4 x Sulfuric Vortex
1 x Cursed Scroll
Weaker than an optimal list, for sure, but still pretty brutal.
I'm playing a more traditional list that doesn't run goblin guide or grim lavamancer (I don't want to strengthen my opponent's removal, and I don't want to buy fetchlands), so I still run magma jet and incinerate in my deck. However, I don't see them in any of the modern builds. I'm curious to know what everyone's thoughts on them are. Personally for me incinerate's instant speed works well as does lightning bolt. Also, magma jet seems to be necessary for the long run, especially when not running grim lavamancer.