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They use also IGG loops, so their Kill cons are: AN, IGG (for normal ANT verions), and these + DDay for the Hybrids. Their only Kill spell Maindeck is Tendrils, which may hurt them having some problems with Meddling Mage or Runed Halo. An advantage of TES is that it runs 3 different Kill cons in the form of Tendrils, EtW and Grapeshot, so it's surely more easier to go off through the so called "hate bears" (except Canonist, which, of course, must die).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow
Thanks for the response.
That begs the question--why play one over the other? Which matchups would ANT be better against? Which matchups would TES be better against?
This is a hard question. I think TES is way more better against Non-blue decks, even the one packing hate because of its flexibility ( given by Burning Wish), and can face multiple situations of hate; on the contrary, ANT ( and in particular, the hybrid packing DDay) is more suited to perform against Blue decks. DDay can even perform well under a CounterTop lock. Note that this definition is , in any case, very relative, since there are situations where TES can perform better (thanks, especially, to the presence of Pyroblasts SB, which ANT generally doesn't pack) against Blue and situations where it sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
The greatest lack of TES, imo, is that bit of inconsistency in its draws ( due to having a low count of lands, and a 4-colour nature) which makes it less "reliable" to the eyes of the people than how ANT , with its only 2-3 colours, a greater amount of shuffling effects and a "beautiful" manabase, seems to be.
Which is only true for straight ANT, but not for the Dday Hybrid. With Doomsday you can combo through hate bears even easier than TES can. (a single Slaughter Pact/Bounce is usualy enough) Postboard you also have Helm of Awakening + Top + Grapeshot as an alternate wincondition which allows you to combo through Canonist (though it's unlikely to have Helm + 2x Tops online)Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
edit: I think the choice between TES and ANT/DDay is a meta question as well as a question of your playing style. TES is way more explosive, but lacks a bit of consistency.
This is true, i apologize for not having mentioned the Freeze/shot postboard alt-kill. But TES can get rid of (multiple) hate bears even from g1 thanks to 4 Burning Wish which can grab Grapeshot, Pyroclasm, ecc, plus a Chain of Vapor, while DDay relies generally only on a single bounce spell maindeck (Wipe Away). And yes, i can swear you there are still people running MMage or Gaddock MDQuote:
Originally Posted by jjjoness'
@Piceli: Ive actually seen several versions of ANT begin to drop IT and LEDs more often of late losing them the IGG option.
@LordofthePit: I have no idea why people continue to play ANT over TES. Ive tested and all Ive found is that its much slower. Consistentcy really has never been an issue for me and honestly, if your are looking for a deck that never gets draw screwed, combo probably isnt the right deck.
@jjjoness:I don't see how doomsday deals with cannonist that turn. And going DD -> go really doesnt seem thats sound. Also, I dont see how killing a hate bear is easier than just winning. Finally, what deck can you actually get Helm, Top, Top going against?
After doing some testing of things people suggested (cutting IGG for Infernal), I decided it wasn't in my list's best interest. Infernal for a 2nd LED, and having Burning Wish does come up. I'd like IGG in the sideboard, however, I'm not against people cutting it. I'll be honest, it's a safety net - I prefer not to break my legs in case I fall.
I liked being able to Burning Wish for Ad Nauseum (Infernal sideboard) though. My current (I use this loosely, my lists are always changing) list is only playing 1x ETW sideboard instead of 2x (Formerly the Vindicate slot). I'm playing this sideboard...
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:4 Pyroblast
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:3 Shattering Spree
I'm really glad to see this thread up and running again, I'm always testing new things and trying to make my list better especially with the Boston 5K Open on it's way.
Here is the list I've played for the last two weeks for our weekly Legacy Tournaments:
Lands:
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Dark Ritual
2x Ad Nauseam
2x Orim's Chant
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Chain of Vapor
Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
2x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
1x Tendrils of Agony
Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
Sideboard:
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tendril's of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Krosan Grip
1x Rushing River
1x Maelstom Pulse
1x Tropical Island
My list has without a doubt moved more towards an ANT list that uses Burning Wish. But I can't deny the amount of consistency the deck has using 14 lands.
The only thing I'd like to try and do is move a Thoughtseize into the sideboard as a wish target.. But I'm not to sure what to remove.
Echoing truth is there to be sided against Counterbalance decks (since you lack Vindicate now), in order to fall slightly more away from its curve? And how's going with 3 Useas for the Sprees? I think you might have some problems optimizing it. Have you tried a Meltdown/Hurkyl's Recall, or even to make -1 USea +1 Volcanic ? Not having access to the white/red combination when you're going off can hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
That was honestly my issue with running 5-Color Lands + Dual Lands, it sucked when I was not able to cast things when I needed to.
Actually, the latest lists of TES we're all playing have cut green. We all agree Pyroblast is way more better than Xantid against blue decks because of the posibility to destroy counterbalance, and that Krosan grip doesn't belong to this deck. We're down to 4 colors, therefore. And a colour only nets 4 cards (white,obv); so, it's not really that difficult to pack few Duals, and even fetches ( always few ones, ofc).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperBean
I refuse to play meltdwown. It destroys us also, reasons are stated above. I'm open to Hurkyl's, but haven't had time to test it (someone else mentioned it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I've thought about the one Volcanic. But I'm not sure if it's worth it with 8 red cards maindeck. But...there are 10 cards in the sideboard.
Exactly. And you know Shattering Spree is one of the most powerful tools we have against Artifacts-Lock.dec. Ok for meltdown, but i tested in a couple of matches Hurkyl's Recall (which I suggested) against DStompy and it was nutty. Of course a player knowing he's fighting combo won't set chalice @2, but it's way more probable he'll do it at o or at 1. Which makes Recall a very interesting choice, considering it does everything in one hit ,it's cheaper than rebuild and it's instant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Agreed - Hurkyl's Recall is such a champ against Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy and Stax variants.
Im thinking of starting to play with tes, but is it still possible to run AdN and just the rainbow lands? or are the duals a must-have right now??
~Maarten
Preference. I still run all rainbow lands in my build because I don't want to get color screwed.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
Okay :smile: And you run Byrant's list??? Could you post your list please :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow
thanks
Currently I'm playing around with this, stuff is subject to change though (I might test the Infernal Side)Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [CH] City of Brass
3 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
// Spells
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [FNM] Duress
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [US] Meltdown
Jeff, have you had problems with all those Forbidden Orchards? They hurt you very much when you don't manage/ can't afford to go off turn 1-2 (against blue decks for example), and those life points you "give" the opponent with the Spirits might matter a lor for Nauseam. Have you tried something else? perhaps few duals are acceptable, you could play decents lands entirely without losing that much color affidability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow
Whats the whole reasoning behind the duals over rainbow lands?? Jeff: why would u replace 2 orchards with 2 undiscovered paradise??
~Maarten