Venser + Karakas + Candelabra + enough Cloudposts (too lazy to do the math right now) = infinite mana
:eek: someone wanna elaborate on that before I stay up all night playing with my magic deck alone trying to figure it out?
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Venser + Karakas + Candelabra + enough Cloudposts (too lazy to do the math right now) = infinite mana
:eek: someone wanna elaborate on that before I stay up all night playing with my magic deck alone trying to figure it out?
Karakas + 2 U sources + 4 cloudpost.
Add WUU16 to your mana pool.
Pay 7 going to WUU9 to untap 7 lands with candelabra.
Play venser, going to W7, bounce candelabra.
Play candelabra, going to W6.
Tap all lands except Karakas to go to WUU22.
Bounce Venser with Karakas, and repeat.
Congrats you made infinite mana when you already had "infinite" mana! The key thing is that the costs are Venser (UU2) + Candelabra casting cost (1) + 1 to untap Karakas, so you need your candelabra to net 7 mana or more in each untap to go infinite.
^ Yeah, it's not spectacular, but it could end up letting you cast an Emrakul a turn or two earlier than normal. Might matter someplace, someday.
I may have gone completely mad, but I've dropped blue with FRF testing. Still unsure on if the red splash is worth or not, and the sideboard is a complete mess, not considering red options at all sofar. Feel free to imput. The results have been quite stunning.
When the world is maindeck pyros, this is the most stable route. I was finding that games where my repeals resolved, I won. Games where they didn't, I had to fight 10x as hard. This just circumvents the whole issue.
// Lands
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [ZEN] Forest (6)
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [R] Taiga
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [10E] Sylvan Scrying
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
Interesting! Was thinking about dropping blue as well, but going the mono green way... Nice to see red again. What about the moxes? Looks like nice in opening hand, but horrible in late game? Playing two colors plus Karakas plus bog I would keep one explosives main. Blasts for SB, maybe even 2 volcanic fallouts? Sudden shock could come in main as a 2/3 off as well, as it's almost always a nice solution to handle Delver, Swiftspear and so on. Feel free to comment, all without a single game of GR in the last 6 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Sweetness. With the green and the caverns, I'd put in Courser of Kruphix. And probably some fetch lands.
I feel this too, but it made me put moments peace back in instead.
Since ugin got released I was working in amono green deck with spash on white may be? So that I get edge over pyroblast decks while having rest in piece and a lot of hate in sb.
i think thats the way to go.
May be red is also ok. But I think white gives you better tools to fight like rip, ghostly prision, leyline and so on.
@Togores and others
Why we should cut blue???
Seems so bad. Cards like Show and Tell, BS and Repeal are too good. Same for Sideboard Cards like FoW or Flusterstorm.
We have to cast a damn Eldrazi and win;)
You can get the same effect with other carda like mirris guide, sylvan library and sensei. Also its true that show and tell is good card. But I would llay 12 post in total and zenith. Wich is another great card playing more posts. Sb spash gives you great options. Like:
Cicle of peotection white vs price of progress and all other red stuff
Rest in pieces vs delve, ant, reanimator and dredge.
Tegg vs storm
Leyline vs storm and discard
You can side wrath of god effects
Sacred ground vs wastelands
Also cards like thalia or spirit of the laberint vs combo.
I dont say its the best plan. But it does a job right now. Not falling into so many md rebs.
Cutting Blue does seem bad, but what you lose in deck manipulation, you gain in additional flexibility in your threats; for example, the list Rock posted contains the Punishing Fire gameplan. A White list gains access to Format Hatred, through cards like Spirit of the Labyrinth or Rest in Peace or even Wheel of Sun and Moon. Black gives you access to Decay and DRS, as well as cards like Pernicious Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Further exploration yielding me this list:
// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
5 [PT] Forest (2)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [JU] Krosan Wayfarer
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
It seems you have chosen a heavy emphasis on ramp, which seems like a trick suited for 12-post. Without having tested any of your cards, it seems as if you're playing some inefficient cards just to ramp. I think ramping is most efficient with multiple candelabra's and all twelve posts.
That said, if going mono-green is a reaction to the meta hating on blue (MD pyro's is disgusting indeed), I'd go to a black splash. Mono green lacks the versatility of repeal, brainstorm and show & tell, but black allows you to play several nifty things.
- Play 4-8 MD targeted discard in Thoughtseize and Inquisition to screw over combo.
- Play Pernicious deed as the most efficient boardwiper in the format.
- Play abrupt decay for your swiss-army removal.
- Play skeletal scrying to buldozer over anything that calls itself treasure cruise
- Urborg to fix mana: hardcast a griselbrand just because we can
Most of these things are probably bad ideas, but to me there is plenty of appeal to splash black for awesome stuff.
I do think going 1x1 with discard and decay seems bad got a so strong deck like post. You can go more greedy and with better cards thanks to the great power of post.
Also Rock I would play 12 posts in mono green for sure.
As a random aside, the German version of Ugin is significantly more powerful than the English one with the -X ability destroying all permanents of CMC X or MORE. If you're into those kind of curiosities you might want to pick up that specific version of the card.
While wayfarer is alright, I'd almost certainly rather run Explore in this spot. Can you explain your thinking behind wayfarer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I read about that on Tumblr. I'm sure everyone already knows this, but Wizards is not going to let that mistranslation rule the German meta. Next print run, they'll fix it. (Though collectors may want to grab them... those could be pricey collectors items someday.)Quote:
Originally Posted by LLCoolDave
Also, I'm not sure how I feel about dropping blue from the deck. If Crop Rotation didn't exist, I'd personally drop green first and make the deck hard control similar to miracles with a better mana and win conditions.
Lastly, 1 Ugin seems underwhelming. I've been playing Ugin (mostly in modern at the moment and a little in MUD-Post) and if the deck is moving away from blue and needs to compensate through other cards, 2 seems reasonable since being unsearchable makes a difference. It would give it a better chance of being dug up.
P.S., Karn + Ugin = hell for opponents.
4 top 4 stirrings is plenty to find the 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
I am testing 4 Ugins mainboard in Modern with 4 Ancient Stirrings and 10 Cantrip artifacts (8 Chromatics and 2 Relics, granted that may not be as effective as Top). Finding one is not a cakewalk, and I would not go under 2 anyway because it generally takes two -X to put an opponent to far behind to come back. A lot can happen to Ugin after that first wipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Soooooooo treasure cruise just got banned. How do you all feel about that? And just when we had the ur delver meta nailed, right? :-P
Umm...in what format and where did you read this? It's not posted on Wizards Ban / Restricted lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotChick
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2015-01-19Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
I never cared for Cruise in this deck, so I'm entirely indifferent in that regard. If anything, this might hurt us a bit if it indeed leads to an increase in deck variety, as we are both a more controlling and more metagamed deck than the Legacy average, I'd say, so we have more to lose with a widening metagame. The influence this has on where the Delver and Stoneforge decks will move to now and what happens to the maindeck Pyroblasts will impact our card (and even color) choices a whole lot, but I doubt it has a big impact on the viability of the strategy as a whole. As usual, we just have to adapt to what we actually need to beat at any given moment. The variety in tools this shell has is insane.
Well the jig is up, treasure cruise exits Friday 1/23. Does this mean that wastelands will be on the rise again? It also probably means the disappearance of pyroblasts/REBs main deck right?
It is banned. This is great news for Post! Wasteland will be back in force but honestly I'd rather plan on fighting through a steady stream of wasteland than have to hedge against denial AND pure aggro. As long as the format doesn't break towards omni when the dust settles, this is a great ban for us, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
Exactly my thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
Prepare for SneakyShow, Omni, and Storm to start dominating again. Also expect a rise of U/W miracles with digx3-4 main.
I could also see BUG picking up in numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
well prior to the banlist changing things up massively, this was close to what I was looking at anyhow, which is both good for the old and new meta.
// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [DDF] Island (3)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [JU] Krosan Wayfarer
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
1 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [KTK] Dig Through Time
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
The sideboard balance can swap plenty. Tabernacle, sphere/chalice values and something strong against omni might be worth considering.
This looks really good! I'll put the MB together and give it some testing @my weeklyQuote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Looks interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
No Show and Tell? How do you not die to Burn?
How is Mox Diamond is it worth the discard of a land with no Loam to get it back?
Krosan Wayfarer seems good in your opening hand but less good to top deck. Is it worth the risk of drawing it later on an empty hand?
I guess Mox Diamond is a good choice, because it ramps, does mana fixing AND supports Dig Through Time : you can delve the discarded land OR the Mox if you didn't discard a land because you are already in mid- or late-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
Main deck Pyroblast showed up before Treasure Cruise was printed in Miracles. It really depends how much blue there is. If there is a ton of blue. Main deck Pyrobast is a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
I really like the idea of Krosan Wayfarer. Besides the whole ramp aspect, it's nice to have a pseudo Crop Rotation that helps remedy one of the most obnoxious problems the deck can face: Glacial Chasm, Eye of Ugin or Bojuka Bog rotting away in your hand. Don't know how I feel about Mox Diamond (even though it does fuel Dig Through Time) or the lack of Show and Tell, but it definitely merits testing.
Omni is still an absolute pain in the ass. If they have Cunning Wish backup, even Venser, Shaper Savant won't save you. I'm wondering if Trinisphere is the best thing to bring in against them, as if nothing else it probably buys you at least a single turn since they likely won't be able to tutor the same turn they Show and Tell.
Hi, on my yesterday's tournament appeared more discard decks to test and they done good job in this tournament lot of junds and bugs i lost with them all games :)) so maybe three baloths will come again to my side .. Krosan wayfarer is nice more tricky , maybe explore could do same work for late game with drawing new card is maybe better.
still have problem agains delvers i want to test two trickbinds or two carpets (still using classic build with needles) what is better if anybody have any experience with those cards so advice, thanks . i'm very busy with my work so playing legacy just one per week no online ..
Mox diamond can also be used to accelerate a turn 1 chalice of the void, similar to how MUD jams it on turn 1. It also lets you do colored mana under a bloodmoon easily. It seems a lot harder to use in this deck, because you want all your lands in play. It does however, combo well with Titania. :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
I used to play Omnitell. The way the deck looses is taxing and prison effects with an effective clock. I think that's why the matchup is a royal pain in the arse. We don't put the deck on a clock. Trinisphere seems like the best way to slow them down. If they show and tell, instead of venser you put in trinisphere. That makes them either have to have 5-6 mana (cunning wish + bounce spell) to deal with trinisphere or it buys you a turn(s). This deck is very unpredictable, show and tell is a liability, as you can resolve it and loose on the spot. :( Meddling mage is also a solid card naming their wish (either cunning or burning).
Went 2-1 at my LGS last night. Loosing to storm....again lol. Sometimes you just get stormed out on turn 1 after you mulligan to 6.
Regardless, I finally got the soft lock against Sneak and Show of Karakas + Venser + Cavern (on Wizard). I was really impressed with how strong it is. Along those lines, has anyone tried Vendillion Clique? Or is that too slow to matter?
I also moved back to 2x Candelabras. It definitely seems to run smoother with 2 sticks.
Also, against RUG delver, I cast show and tell with 4 mana available to bait a counterspell. It got FoW'ed, pitching daze. I was literally going to use it as a terri-bad explore. It this correct to do if you have a hand of basically lands & a repeal?
Got some play in at my weekly. There were literally like, five Miracles decks and somehow I ended up not playing any of them.
It might speak more to my personal play style, but I came in not feeling great about Mox Diamond and I came out feeling the same way. There was one neat instance where I dropped six cards out of my hand on turn 1, but for the most part, I just don't want to discard lands out of my hand unless it's like, a fetch or a Trop. A hand of something like two lands and a Mox is also super uncomfortable, especially without a Brainstorm to back it up. I'm aware of the things it enables, like early Chalice of the Void on one or an early Sphere effect. And yes, it makes casting Dig Through Time considerably easier. Still don't feel great about the card right now. Maybe I just need more practice.
Krosan Wayfarer is no joke. That card also played out like I thought it would, and it enabled me to steal a game against Infect - otherwise not a great matchup - by jamming a turn 3 Primeval Titan.
At least in my meta, the sideboard likely needs tweaking, but presumably that just requires me to not be an idiot ;)
Can't wait for Ugin to drop in price and become legal.
EDIT: Saw maCHOOga's question.
Hard to say without knowing all factors, but I feel like the answer might be no. Unless you were immediately going to lose and needed to resolve the Repeal to buy you time, it probably wasn't a good idea. I have baited Show and Tell many a time to force out a counterspell, but usually it's because I need to resolve something like Crop Rotation to keep me alive or because my current board state is so awful that I need a different land and/or a shuffle effect. I mean, in your scenario it's great that you pulled out both a soft and a hard counter, but what do you do next? Unless you can make something big happen - or just, you know, not die - it probably wasn't worth it. My two cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
That awkward moment when you show and tell to bait a counter, it resolves, and you have nothing to put in
For those who don't like the Moxes... Perhaps 1-2 Grim Monolith?
...Or they put in Omniscience, Emrakul or Blightsteel and you loose. Been there...done that. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotChick
Trinisphere (and to lesser extent Lodestone Golem) is one of the best cards that I play against Omni-Show (specifically off their Show and Tell) when I play MUD-Post. However, that will only stall 1-2 turns at best unless a Prison strategy makes things worse, or you just KO them before they find enough mana to push through Emrakul, which is how they have to win through Trinisphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster