Yeah, it seems like Fatal Push is almost always strictly better than Innocent Blood, especially in two-color lists with fetches. Maybe run Fatal Push main and Innocent Blood in the sideboard for Sneak and Show and Reanimator?
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Yeah, it seems like Fatal Push is almost always strictly better than Innocent Blood, especially in two-color lists with fetches. Maybe run Fatal Push main and Innocent Blood in the sideboard for Sneak and Show and Reanimator?
Hi everyone,
I haven't posted in awhile but Fatal Push made me look back into one of my favorite decks - - Pox. However, I wanted to discuss another AER card that in my opinion also has great potential in this archetype. I really like the ideas I've seen with some of your more recent brews, especially the blue ones and I think Planeswalkers could be a good way to go. What about for a fast closer we played something like heart of Kiran along side of cursed scroll and Jace/Lili? It is exactly what we want a big beater that has vigilance and dodges all of our own pox effects. What do you all think?
Cheers
If your plan to beat Sneak & Show and Reanimator is Innocent Blood you are going to lose a lot of games.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroBean
Heart of Kiran is only good when you have a planeswalker with high loyalty that is not being threatened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
If you have a planeswalker with high loyalty that is not threatened you are winning. Seems like a bad draw or a win more.
Sure, there are corner cases of magical Christmas land in which this is going to be a good draw. But I would rather play cards that are good a higher percentage of the time than ones that are only relevant under very specific circumstances, especially with a format so diverse.
Innocent Blood has been good in the Sneak and Show match up. Being able to kill a fatty off of a Show and Tell seems great, don't you think? Or would you rather not side them in? They have also been great in the reanimator matchup. Why would I not want them, at least against reanimator?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroBean
Doesn't reanimator try find Iona and end game with that?
Yeah, but if they find Iona and reanimate her turn 1 anyway, all of our black cards becomes useless. Might as well have something that kills their other creatures.
IB can be too slow, especially against SnS. They will probably go SnT > SA > one or both fatties. There are too many sac-effects to consider, and finishing you off as fast as possible is the way to go. You're probably better off with Diabolic Edict. Still, you're in a rough spot, and will likely loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroBean
EDIT: regarding Reanimator; I think Iona will be the way to go, I agree.
Innocent blood also kills a True-Name Nemesis which is something to think of. Although having some targeted removal is nice.
Fatal push' revolt cost is also triggered by jace, vryn's prodigy flipping...
Hey everyone,
I've been lurking in this thread for a while, posting for the first time. Pox is my favorite Legacy deck and I've had some version of it built for the past several years. I am just coming back to the game after a very long (5 years) absence, but am planning to play regularly now with Pox as my go-to deck.
Some thoughts on the current conversation:
I've had Innocent Blood in my list for a while, and always found it to be a little underwhelming since we already have multiple other sorcery-speed sacrifice effects.
For example, I've lost several games recently with an Innocent Blood in hand and Liliana on the board, but my opponents were able to work around the sorcery speed removal. IB and Liliana's sac effect often feels redundant in a bad way.
During one particularly unfortunate match, I played against a weird OmniTell + Aetherworks Marvel brew.
I had first turn Inquisition and saw Marvel and Emrakul, but couldn't take either one. He has some acceleration to get the Marvel out, and between his own sac/fetch lands and a Smallpox, the Marvel comes online quickly. End of my turn he Brainstorms, puts Emrakul on top, activates Marvel, uses it to cast Emrakul. Since Marvel says "Cast" he gets to take the extra turn, meaning two attacks with Emrakul in a row. I die with Innocent Blood in hand and Liliana on the board. It could be that the real reason I lost that game may have been that Inquisition couldn't take key cards and should have been Thoughtseize instead, but still, my removal couldn't save me.
I had another situation like that where someone made a Marit Lage during my endstep and then I died also holding Innocent Blood with Liliana in play.
I know that Fatal Push wouldn't have helped in either of those situations, but it did make me frustrated enough with IB to start looking for replacements.
At first I was thinking Diablolic Edict, but Fatal Push has enough applications that I think it's worth testing.
I agree with you on this. It's worth testing and my be better. I've found that many times the opponent will caste a chump to sac in the event I try such a route. Direct targeting would be nice and most of outlet targets are two cost. Issue comes into play when you meet show and tell/sneak, or reanimatorQuote:
Originally Posted by heyjohnsexton
Different tools against different decks. The question is what is best to have in main deck. The variance of legacy deck types is such that it is hard to figure this out. I go to Carsten Kotter for advice here. He noted the format is fast with plenty of cheap spells. Decks like Delver will always have a presence. Against deathrite shaman IB is great, or SFM, NEMESIS etc.
It also helps against fatties, but flounder against tokens.
I suppose the later threat is less common.
Innocent Blood is useless against Sneak Attack, it is also useless against a Show and Tell that brings in Griselbrand. You are playing a card that is ineffective against 75% of the opponents win conditions. You already have Smallpox and Liliana as sac effects, no need for even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroBean
Reanimator generally gets Griselbrand which means Innocent Blood is irrelevant, they just draw enough cards to combo again or get a counter. B/R Reanimator plays Sire of Insanity which makes you discard Innocent Blood.
Innocent Blood CAN be effective in these matches, but it is only under very specific circumstances. Sure if the opponent Show and Tells in an Emrakul and has no removal (which I have had happen to me) you feel great about having Innocent Blood in hand. The problem is you start relying on this corner case scenario card to get you through matches.
With that being said, sometimes you have to leave Innocent Blood in if you don't have enough sideboard cards to bring in, I currently have to leave 1 in post board. It's not the end of the world because it does give me outs to certain lines of play, just don't start thinking it's some sort of back breaker for these matchups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjohnsexton
You generally don't beat those types of decks game 1 because you have many dead cards. Not playing something in your maindeck because it loses to matchups you can't beat with your maindeck doesn't make sense. You just need to have enough cards to board in to get rid of all of those dead cards.
Innocent Blood is the reason you do so well against decks like Delver, Elves, Death & Taxes, Eldrazi, etc...
I'm not saying leave in or take out Innocent Blood, but don't take it out because it's bad against combo decks you aren't supposed to beat game 1.
If you change it to Disfigure you are worse vs TNN, various Delver decks and Eldrazi (among others)
If you change it to Dismember you are worse vs TNN, various Delver decks, and Burn (among others)
I was having an issue with too many dead cards to side out so I replaced one of my one mana removal with a Funeral Charm. It is not the best removal spell, but it does kill a lot of relevant creatures and it still has applications vs my bad matchups. I also am playing 1 of Dismember, Innocent Blood, and Disfigure for 1 mana removal, but I play Brainstorm which really helps me replace these dead cards vs combo or dig for them vs specific matches and flashing them back with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy feels amazing.
I 5-0'd a league recently with this Loam Pox list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14378&d=285961&f=LE.
Its too soon to tell but I like to think Fatal Push will be the "Swords to Plowshares" of this deck...especially in BG lists like mine that run fetches.
Deathrite Shaman is often the biggest one drop annoyance to play against with my list, so having a clean cheap answer to him other than Disfigure is really good.
I'm contemplating running two Fatal Push in the main.
Without "revolt" active it kills manlands, goyf, scavenging ooze, painter servant, infect creatures, endless one, merfolk and even batterskull token. Of course it deals with other legacy staples, but I mentioned those above because they can easily escape Disfigure, Spinning Darkness and Contagion range.
Also, with "revolt" you can turn two fetch, kill a Thought-Knot Seer.
Fatal Push seems like a strong card for sure, but I think it needs Fetchlands to be reliable, otherwise True-Name Nemesis, Thought-Knot Seer, Eldrazi Displacer, Brimaz, Mirran Crusader, Flickerwisp, Shardless Agent, Magus of the Moon, Knight of the Reliquary, etc are all misses. Even with Revolt, I worry that I'll be staring at it in my hand with a Gurmag Angler or a Tasigur pulling me apart.
If I'm running Fetches for Bayou then I'm running Abrupt Decay, which has more strengths and the same weaknesses....
I think it's less comparable to Swords to Plowshares, and more comparable to Lightning Bolt - It removes many, even most of the creatures you will face, but there are significant misses. Innocent Blood hits everything except Drowner of Hope. (I'm certain I'm missing something else obvious....like Young Pyromancer....)
I'm thinking Fatal Push is a slam dunk.
For the monoB player like me, I have 4x Smallpox, 4x Liliana of the Veil, a single Pox and a single Toxic Deluge, so all this talk of not having sac effects seems silly to me.
Instant speed seems huge, going first gives me so much more to do, sniping their T1 creature and then pushing a Hymn or a Sinkhole. It'll make the T2 Smallpox less often a perfect 4/4, but those always seem to eat Dazes anyway.
If you have a splash, then yeah, this might compete against better cards, and if the debate was just over the text box I could see both sides. But this is an instant, and that's a huge difference.
If you're on mono b and worried about hitting revolt reliably enough to hit things like v clique or thought knot, I think you are still able to run 4-5 fetch lands. I would probably start with 2-3 fatal push and a murderous cut in the innocent blood slots. I just know that it might be good enough to finally pull me back off abrupt decay.
I will probably try it out as soon as I get a hold of a few. The turn 1 argument is compelling, it makes your turn 2 Sinkholes and Hymns even better. I'm more worried about top decking it as a dead card later. This could easily be a Meta difference, I absolutely need to be prepared for Grixis Delver, D+T, and Eldrazi at my LGS. If you're just facing Goblin Guides, DRS, Goyf, and Delver, that changes things.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
I, for one, am glad that it is an uncommon. I hate shelling out for rares that may not make the cut.
Have you ever had your deck just stop working? I was running reasonably hot at my LGS's weekly event, winning record every week, so forth. The past two weeks though, the only match I've won was vs Manaless Dredge and I board 4 Leylines, so it's a bye. I think that what has happened is the meta has shifted - the delver players haven't been around since November. I really noticed it this week, I saw multiple planeswalker decks and artifact based decks that are tough matchups. I lost this week to Tezzerator and D+T and beat Dredge. I scooped 4th round to Aluren. I would have won, but I was mildly tilted and wanted to go home. I felt I should have beat D+T, but whatever. Does anyone have ideas to shake up your list or tune vs planeswalkers/ less delver? I haven't really bent my mind to it yet. I may play Storm next week because I feel the field is wide open to it, but I'd like to think about how to adjust Pox to a less favorable meta. Sorry this is rambling. My list is Mono-Black with no expensive Legends cards - All the usual stuff +2 Big Pox, Night of Souls Betrayal, Toxic Deluge main, Rack, Trini, Leyline, Plague, Needle in the board. I will probably think about this and get back with a more coherent post some time this week.
-Cheers
If you want to beat walkers, depending on the walkers they're playing, you want to put three needles in the board and strongly consider adding a color. For the large walkers, you want to play white for vindicate and lingering souls, if it's small walkers, you want green cause they can't counter abrupt decay. Either way you consider a couple bitterblossom in your 75. For death and taxes, you want 2-4 board wipes and/or enchantments that make their life miserable, ex dread of night, toxic deluge, night of souls' betrayal, infest or some such. I also like at least two cursed scroll against D&T, and neither deck enjoys getting armageddoned out of the board, and either garruk relentless or sorin, lord of inestrad out of the board is good pressure. Liliana, the last hope, is also good against D&T and most walker decks don't apply enough pressure her enough to keep her off her ultimate.
Underworld Dreams can screw up walkers very nicely. The damage can be redirected to them, and if it's Jace then his Brainstorm ability will kill him instantly.
I have 4 Cursed Scroll, Night of Soul's Betrayal and Toxic Deluge main, plus another Toxic Deluge and 2 Engineered Plague in the Board, so I feel confident vs. Death + Taxes in general. I might actually cut a Cursed Scroll. I think I will cut a Pox for a 2nd MD Deluge, and up the SB Pithing Needle count to 3.
I have The Rack in the SB which can fight Planeswalkers as well.
I used to run a white splash years and years ago, just for Vindicate main and Gerrard's Verdict/Disenchant in the side. There has been much printed since(like Flagstones of Trokair, Sorin, Lingering Souls), maybe I'll give it another look.
I have a G/B list i used to play as well, it's Loam/Chalice/Pox. I have considered just splashing for Abrupt Decay and Sylan Library (and Choke), but the current reality is that I don't own Verdant Catacombs, Marsh Flats, Bayous, or Scrublands, so I'm trying to tough it out as mono black.
I like Liliana, the Last Hope's plus and ultimate, but she overlaps with Liliana of the Veil, and her minus is blank, so I'm not certain it worth it. Maybe I'll try her out, her emblem is a solid win con.
For reference, here's my list:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cursed Scroll
2 Pox
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nether Spirit
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 The Rack
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
I too wanted to run Liliana, the Last Hope. However, I proxied her as a test and due to extremely tight spacing, I could only get 2 of her into my main deck. Current deck runs akin to Tom Ross's 'deck tech: Pox' shown on youtube, with my preferences of Sinkholes and no Tabernacle.
She really wants to be in a low CMC zombie tribal deck. Having a planeswalker with 2 near useless abilities is a bad call. It's like half of a Contagion, only not permanent. My foes usually have creatures with more than 1 toughness [DRS grr]. Now if she managed to "Dead Weight" creatures with a -2/-2 counter, then she can take my money!
Killing Planeswalkers is actually not about a specific card, though Pithing Needle is the one most people will definitely recommend. I find 1-2 to be about right but the real key to killing enemy Planeswalkers is actually something more general: more threats.
My sideboard includes 4 more 'hard target' threats: The Rack, Cursed Scroll #2, Shrieking Affliction, and Syphon Life. I understand that Syphon Life doesn't hurt Planeswalkers but it's something to get me some life back during really slow grinders. That and control/burn decks hate it :laugh:
Took my Pox to the local legacy tournament last night. It ran very well but I did see changes that need to occur for some more fine tuning. One of which is including another wincon.
Anyways I went:
Enchantress 2-0 win
-Quick easy win. Game two he halo ruined my liliana to keep me from force sacking his enchantress but I dropped Chains and plowed over her with Mishra's Factory.
D&T 1-0-1
-Draw game
Faeries 1-2 lose
-last game hit a land pile that consisted of top decking 13 lands and I died.
Dropped due to time constraints and no chance of top 8.
Hi guys, I'm interested in building mono black Pox as another Legacy deck and I wanted to get some input on this pretty stock list:
Lands (22)
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp
Spells (38)
2 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 The Abyss
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
Would you change something? What are you thoughts on Nether Void and The Abyss? Do I have enough win conditions? I often see Tabernacle in Pox lists but I wonder how good it really is without a tutor effect.
Thanks in advance :)
Nether void is nice but unless you play against a storm, burn, or combo deck I find that it doesn't slow the opponent as much as you would like. The abys is worth keeping main board. You can drop to 2 cursed scrolls and be perfectly fine. I've had no luck with nether void in any situation. He's not a wincon even though he has good synergy with the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by HansoRaptor
Tabernacle is just another synergy card. You'll control well without it but the fact Pox goes top deck mode quickly the static effect helps a lot.
I'm currently trying to include more viable wincons to the deck but need to test more. Ob Nixilis, the rack, Phyrexian Obliterator, and Tombstalker all have an appeal but which is best is my own question? Not just the answer of it has good synergy but it's is best.
I only run smallpox. Pox is nice but Liliana basically covers Pox's job except for the 1/3rd life lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by HansoRaptor
My current deck list:
http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=998161
Thanks, I really appreciate your help :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostfire86
i think your a little low on the land count, i would add two more swamps in there.. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by HansoRaptor
23-25 count is the sweet spot depending on how many Pox and Smallpox your running and if you are running Crucible of WorldsQuote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I will go for 24 lands + Crucible.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostfire86
I haven't had much time to play legacy lately, but I've been doing some pox-related thought experiments here and there that I'd like to get some feedback on. I'll kick things off with the following:
Q. Mishra's Factory. Do we really want these?
I know they are kind of a sacred cow for this deck, but I have to be honest I've been pretty underwhelmed by them (and I'm saying this after I went out of my way to get the full set of Antiquities seasons, too).
Factories necessitate the use of Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth, and between those two we set ourselves up for some awkward draws, like one swamp and a factory, or two factories and a wasteland, stuff like that. This deck is extremely reliant on getting BB in on turn 2, and factories make that awkward sometimes.
The Factory + Urborg combo is also fragile to wasteland - both are good targets, and if we are relying on Urborg to get us out of an otherwise colorless land draw, waste on Urborg can be game over.
In addition to disrupting our own early game, the factories don't contribute a huge amount to the mid to late game either. In mid game, we almost always want to be spending mana on something other than activating a factory, since doing so effectively costs 2 potential mana. This seems at odds with cursed scroll, which is also very mana hungry.
In the end game, Factory contributes to a kill only very slowly - and if the opponent does manage to get a creature of any kind, it can be blocked and likely killed.
Keep in mind also that factories will soon be even more fragile due to Fatal Push, because that card can kill manlands.
So in summary, if factories have the potential to disrupt our own mana early game when its most critical to disrupt the opponent, are good targets for opposing wastelands, compete for scarce resources with another win condition (cursed scroll), and aren't strong finishers in the late game, then why do we need them? Being able to attack for 2 each turn against an empty board doesn't seem good enough.
So what could we do instead?
I'll throw out a few ideas, but I really want to hear what others think.
Alternative 1: Rishadan Port.
I know I'm not the first to suggest this, but I haven't seen it in any pox lists in a long time. While Port does share some of the same weaknesses as Factory in terms of potentially awkward colorless draws and wanting Urborg, it seems to contribute more directly to the plan of resource denial, especially if we're on a mana denial build with sinkholes. It isn't a win condition, true, but it does help more in those crucial early turns, acting as a temporary sinkhole to turn off colors and such. And it can force awkward decisions for the opponents fetchlands as well.
Alternative 2: Swamps.
Swamps may not be as glamorous as Factory or port, but basic lands have plenty of advantages in legacy, and consistency is super valuable. If we replaced factories with swamps, we would no longer need Urborg -- making our mana base rock solid and completely blanking opposing wastelands in the process.
Alternative 3: your suggestions!
Have awkward colorless or Urborg draws ever cost you games with Pox?
How often does Factory beat down actually win the game for you?
Interested to hear what people think.
What you are suggesting is the removal of a wincondition and replacing it with items, while beneficial, will not win the game under and circumstances. Your assessment is well grounded, but your suggestion of more Swamps, then we won't need Urborg; sure, okay. But then how are we winning games? 60 Swamps is a bedrock solid mana base, but will lose every time. If you're suggestion is to just lean harder on Cursed Scroll, another glacially slow win condition, then you're losing sight of your argument.
The magic of Pox is that all of our effects are symmetrical, so it's "fair". Look guys, Smallpox hurts me too! Why is everybody angry? Manlands by their nature dodge sorcery speed removal and allow us to maintain threats while whimsically trowing out edict effects. That synergy is a price paid in low power and a Wasteland susceptible mana base. Other players are making the same decisions you are, they're just choosing a high power creature with the downside that it dies to Smallpox. Which is fine, because they're not planning to have Smallpox cast during 100% of their matches. We are, so our priorities must shift to reflect that.
And any manland will do, it's just that Mishra's Factory has shown itself to be the best return for a small investment. Other options for the bigger splash are stuff like Chimeric Idol or Phyrexian Totem. Only other route is to just use real creatures, but Nether Spirit is just as slow as Mishra's Factory, and anything else is making you weak to your own cards. Some aggro Pox decks do end up looking like this, but they're outside of what most consider traditional Pox.
1. No. I mulligan.Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjohnsexton
2. Very often. In fact, I'd say factory wins me the most games cause it's the only threat I have that's 4-of and CONSISTENTLY punches you in the face.
What do I think? I think if you want to win 'faster', you have to include 1-2 Big Pox. 1/3rd life loss makes hard-to-kill threats that deal 2-3 damage a very big deal. (The Rack, Chimeric Idol, Mishra's Factory, Chimeric Mass [if you don't run wastelands]) Want to have 5-6 "small poxes"? There's your answer! ^_^ I did actually have a build with 8 Poxes once which resembled the ancient build but removed the Dark Rituals for Lilianas. A very terrifying build indeed but the mana curvature hurt it quite badly.
:eek:
So, personal opinion on factory is that it's not there as a win condition, it's there as a land that is also pseudo repetitive creature control. It basically blanks the first 2 2/3 or smaller creatures on its own and forces them to overcomit into whatever our plan is for the late game (buy us time to pick things off with cursed scroll for example.) if we are to remove factory, I would only advocate it for something like the second tabernacle, 2 drownyard temple, and a dust bowl, or second tabernacle and 3 cabal pit with a crucible. Even then, you're going to have a rough time killing people, because the abrupt decay decks are going to do everything they can to eat spirit with deathrites and kill your scrolls already, so you need an alternative kill condition, such as the bloodghast/lingering souls package in the b/w lists that do well in Japan from time to time.
I personally wouldn't trim nether void from pox. If you really want, go ahead andmputnitnin the board, but it's too valuable vs shardless, delver, miracles, bug leovold, elves, storm, sneak and show/omnitell, and enchantress to really be viable to cut unless you see none of those decks locally. I think that 22 land is very light, especially if you are asking about big pox. I think that crucible is a very potent card, and have recently been impressed with a singleton cabal pit, so if you're in the mood to not wreck your spell density but keep your land count up, you can consider that. I don't really like the second nether spirit unless you're running a couple murderous cut to clear one out of your graveyard in case of emergency, since I kept finding myself in awkward positions around having the second one in my hand when I wanted to cast smallpox or activate Liliana.
Ob nix feels like a sideboard card to me, not a main kill con. He's just a way to burry the late game decks. The Liliana the last hope is not for te main, she's a sideboard, and usually comes in when you want to consider boarding veil out or expect veil to get countered anyways. Personally, I feel like the meta has hit a point where a second abyss is very valuable and the tabernacle more than pulls it's weight, whether you can tutor for it or not.
One of my buddies recommended Yahenni's Expertise as something that may be included in Pox. Definitely a card advantage spell, and even without an extra spell in your hand, it's still an effective sweeper against armies that aren't 4 toughness. Kind of like a Mutilate with benefits :confused: For instance, cast this, then a Big Pox or even an Innocent Blood to kill whatever's left over.
At 4 cmc, I'm thinking 2 in the 75 at best. Having a Liliana hit the field after you clear it sounds zexy.
I've thought about it, but so many games I'm jamming off 2 lands, as soon as I find a third I'm casting Smallpox to maintain control.
I'll struggle to keep 3 around long enough to cast Lilliana, don't even get me started about playing around Daze.
In a world where I have 4 lands enough that this is a live card more often than it's dead, it's a strong contender.