[DTB] Sneak Attack

It occurs to me that this deck and Hypergenesis have very similar game plans i.e. cheat stuff in fast and win... My question is--- beyond that what am I missing? I don't think the haste/one shot is better then casting genesis and missing one attack to not lose the creature; particularly when it seems to me Genesis is typically a faster combo off.

To some degree I thought it was protection/redundancy but from a secondary review that seems inaccurate.

Any insight into the pro/con area would be AWESOME!!! Thanks.

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Originally Posted by nodahero

It occurs to me that this deck and Hypergenesis have very similar game plans i.e. cheat stuff in fast and win... My question is--- beyond that what am I missing? I don't think the haste/one shot is better then casting genesis and missing one attack to not lose the creature; particularly when it seems to me Genesis is typically a faster combo off.

To some degree I thought it was protection/redundancy but from a secondary review that seems inaccurate.

Any insight into the pro/con area would be AWESOME!!! Thanks.

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Pros over Hypergenesis:
- Better manabase. Since we're just UR, you're much less succeptible to Wasteland/Stifle.
- More protection spells available (we can play protection spells other than just FoW).
- Consistency - we can play Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain.

Essentially, Hypergenesis is like a slower, less consistent Belcher that gets to run Force of Will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nodahero

It occurs to me that this deck and Hypergenesis have very similar game plans i.e. cheat stuff in fast and win... My question is--- beyond that what am I missing? I don't think the haste/one shot is better then casting genesis and missing one attack to not lose the creature; particularly when it seems to me Genesis is typically a faster combo off.

To some degree I thought it was protection/redundancy but from a secondary review that seems inaccurate.

Any insight into the pro/con area would be AWESOME!!! Thanks.

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Hypergenesis would require some other colour commitment. Also if you play with cascade cards you don't really want to have other cards you could run into. This means that you would have to cut Brainstorm, Spell Pierce, Ponder and Daze. Without these cards you dont have the same ability to assemble the combo as fast as you would with the mentioned cards.

Getting your creatures into play with haste can also be a good thing in a format where some decks run liliana and other sacrifice spells at sorcery speed. If things pan out perfectly you drop Griselbrand, draw 7 or 14 cards and hope that emrakul and lotus petal are among the 7-14 cards. Then you can kill the opponent instantly.

Hypergenesis lets you put creatures into play that you have in your hand when it resolves. You happen to cast Sneak Attack without creatures in hand and hope on topdecking either Griselbrand or Emrakul.

The protection suite is really important vs hypergenesis and sneak into grisel draw 14 petal emrakul is very relevant, you can combo out literally winning that turn backed with lots of protection. Sometimes it fails miserably, but its pretty consistent and the math supports its, in 21 cards you should see at least one each of your 4 ofs. The deck also boards better than hyper as snt or petal can easily go depending on the mu. All that being said experience is the ultimate teacher, sleeve em up and play em at your local then you'll know which one is for you.

Thanks for all the input. I am trying to figure out where to pick up with Magic. I havn't really played alot in the last 2 years and feel really rusty. Again thanks for the input!!!

Congratulations to Will Craddock, winning SCG Dallas :cool:

Very cool to see Sneak Attack win SCG Dallas! I played it as well, though ended up 4-3-1. Two of the losses were due to my bad play/hand selection for sure, and I got greedy in a match that resulted in the draw. I hadn't played Magic in 7 years except for a prerelease 2 years ago, so I think if the deck is piloted by someone with a strong knowledge of the field and more recent experience (like Craddock I'm guessing), this deck is a very good choice. I chose this deck largely because it seemed relatively easy to play and the most resilient combo deck. I may post a tourney report, but the short of the matter is: win against Omnitell; lose to Dredge (my bad playing); win against TES; draw with Countertop (RIP/Helm version) (because I got greedy, and he put Gilded Drake in from my Show and Tell game 2); win against Mono White Control/Artifacts; win against RUG Delver; loss to Esper Stoneblade Control (U/W); loss to Junk (W/G/B) (my bad hand selection).

Also, I did not run Lotus Petal because I did not like them during testing and wanted to run a more reliable manabase and more search spells (flex spots: 2 intuition, 2 preordain, 2 SD tops, 3 misdirection, 3 spell pierce). It did slow the deck down a turn, and I did not often get to "go off" with Sneak + Grisel --> Petal + Emrakul. I might continue playing without them as I never really wanted them at the SCG event. I liked having my mana sources stay in play and having the SD tops.

Thanks to everyone who posted in this thread before me. I read a lot of it and found it a valuable discussion.

Well done Willl Craddock, second in Standard and first in the Legacy, a great weekend. I like the no Daze version and I am rocking something similar. I think the format especially withe rise of Jund is slow enough to drop Daze, which was always anti synergistic in my opinion. Anyway, long live sneak-show, good job!

@pavlaugh: I'd really encourage you to try the petals again. 19 lands, 5 sol lands, 8 fetch, 3 basics, 3 Volc and four petal is pretty solid and the petals give you a winning dimension that you don't have otherwise. It's not always to see in testing, but when you play an opponent that could top deck a karakas, but you just kill him instead, it's pretty nice:)

I've had a couple questions regarding creature selection. I've seen a couple different lists that went different ways. Seems like the better finishing lists have just gone the 4x Griz/Emmy plan. But I've also seen lists running 3x Griz/Emmy & 2x Prog. Prog seems like a good idea since he dodges Karakas. I've also seem lists running a singleton Spirit Guide as a 5th Petal. In goldfishing I've liked that idea since sometimes you Griz into 7 cards that don't have a Petal and you have to pass the turn. Sure, you're reloaded off those 7, but it seemed like that 5th Petal made a difference often enough.

Thoughts?

I think with the low population of Knight of the Reliquary Karakas isn't a large enough concern to justify Progs. You may get randomly screwed by a Karakas as a low probability event, well welcome to combo. Mainly there are two cards that consistently show up in multiples that are pretty annoying post snt: Jace, and Liliana. Progs dodges one of them, so it's not terrible, but it's a little random and Progs really hurts you in games that you would win otherwise(sneak attack for grisel+progs=17 damage, pass turn). If things change it may become better, but for now I'd say consistent solid redundant four of's that fly is probably best.

I opted for more protection vs the SSG, but I've played with and without, play it and see what you think. I opted against it because just resolving a snt beats RUG, BUG/TA, and Jund. The only decks that really put pressur eon you to do a full combo out kill in one turn are Miracles and to a lesser extent stoneblade, so with how the meta is currently balanced I'd rather have the protection spell, but it's definitely the 60th card, if you want a SSG in that slot, go for it.

@Defector, I'm not advocating for removal of the Petals... yet. Speed seems very important against TES/Elves/Dredge/Belcher. I did not like them especially against "fair" decks. I think I will continue to test without them as one tourney was not enough for me to make a decision.

@TerribleTim, I do not currently like any plan that cuts a Griselbrand. GB is such a powerhouse. It would be very difficult for you to lose to a Karakas/etc. once Griselbrand hits the table, even off of a Show and Tell. You're drawing 7-14 cards and will find a new answer. Karakas is really only good against an Emrakul that comes in from Show and Tell. With Sneak Attack, you either need 2 red mana sources or 1 extra turn to play around Karakas: (1) put Emrakul into play, declare attack step, they bounce, you activate Sneak again with Emrakul and enter attack step, declare attackers, BOOM; or (2) at their end of turn step Sneak in Emrakul, untap, attack step, etc.

If you want to try Progenitus in a Karakas-heavy environment, go for it. But I'd just cut 1-2 Emmys in that case. Still, I think Emmy is adequate / better at the job than Progenitus.

@Pavlaugh. Fair enough testing is the ultimate answer. I think in the combo field though that we are the control deck at least as far as belcher and ant/tes is concerned. Im going to 4 pierce main and 3 fluster in the board and just looking to stop them from going off first before comboing out. Not sure if thats correct but ive played against ant a bit and i feel like thats the direction, barring an early snt griselbrand which i think just wins. I love the petals not so much for the speed but for the ability to get it all done in one turn. Good luck with your testing:) can you post your current 60 without petals? This is my the maindeck im taking to the local on sat.
Lands-19-
Sol Lands X5
Fetch X8
Volcanic X3
Island X2
Mountain X1

Artifacts-4
Petal X4

Creatures-8-

Red-4-
Sneak attack X4

Blue-25-
Force X4
Brainstorm X4
Ponder X4
Spell Pierce X4
Show and Tell X4
Preordain X2
Misdirection X2
Intuition X1

Thats the current main deck.
Cheers

Here's the list I played:

4 griselbrand
3 emrakul

4 show and tell
4 sneak attack

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 preordain
2 sensei's divining top
2 intuition

4 force
3 misdirection
3 spell pierce

8 fetch
5 sol
4 volcanic
3 island
1 mountain

A few pages back there was a discussion on Burning Wish but I'd like to pick the topic up again. In my deck I play 3 Show and Tell 4 Wish 2 Sneak Attack essentially replacing the 2 Intuition and 2 Attack with 4 Wish. The thing is that replacing Sneak and Intuition with Wish allows to play fewer Sol lands, replacing them with cantrips, as the deck isn't that mana-hungry anymore (Wish + Show and Tell or Sneak + activation is the same, but being able to stretch the cost over 2 + 3 instead of 4 + 1 makes a difference). It also makes Daze a better card (for instance, second turn Wish, Dazing an opponents threat, third turn Petal/Sol land into Show and Tell, while it could set you back too much if you had Sneak Attack instead).

Of course, there are some matchups where you want Sneak Attack and not Show and Tell, most notably the mirror matchup or Turbo Eldrazi, where the Wish configuration is weaker.

The wishboard is reduced to the most necessary things: Raze (for Karakas), Overmaster, and Turbulent Dreams (for random stuff like Humility or against swarm decks after you've used a Griselbrand).

@georgjorge, I think testing with Burning Wish has some merit given the better curve. However, it undoubtedly makes you more susceptible to anti-Show&Tell plans. If you happen to have Emmy rather than GB as your creature, you are usually in a better position with Sneak rather than Show&Tell against threats like Liliana, Jace, and Karakas/KotR. And as you already pointed out, the Show&Tell plan makes you more vulnerable to certain threats, including Liliana, Jace, Karakas/KotR, Turbo Eldrazi, mirror/Omniscience, Belcher, Helm/RIP combo, Reanimator, etc.

I'm not sure I buy the Daze argument even in theory because if you don't play Burning Wish / don't tap out turn 2, you have Spell Pierce to fight off an early (noncreature) threat. So yeah, Daze might be better than Spell Pierce when you play Burning Wish, but it's better only because you're playing Burning Wish, not necessarily because it's better in the abstract.

@Pavlaugh: I like it. Its a different take, I would like to see a 4th emrakul, but other than that looks good for no petals. I really like top at least in theory, but at the same time I cant ever seem to get it into any list I make. You sir are a better man than I:)) I think you cant run both top and petal and support a high enough blue count for fow and snt. Im still committed to petal, but best of luck withyour approach!

@georgjorge B wish is interesting but I dont buy the daze argument and I think its too important to hard cast sneak attack to go to two. Also doesnt it really hurt your fow count? Idk looks neat, but not convinced. Why not up your snt with a personal tutor or 2 main?

General question: I have yet to come up with a sb strat that I can be proud of. Does the heavy discard in the meta right now require leyline of sanctity? I really hate that card, hate it, hate it. My current sb:
Leyline X4
Boseiju X3
Echoing Truth X3
Flusterstorm X3
Through the Breach X2

My line of reasoning is leyline jund/bug. Boseiju vs esper/miracles. Echoing truth goes in if e bridge/humility etc are on the horizon. Fluster vs storm and ttb for mirror. Implicit bets with this board is that ill beat dredge with the first 60 and flat out lose to reani. Any criticism/input would be great. I dont think snt decks side very gracefully so any advice/ibsight would be appreciated.
Cheers

I'm new to Sneak and Show, but I currently run this sideboard:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wipe Away
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyroblast

I hate Leylines too because it's awful having to mulligan to get them, but they work so well against the black discard decks (which we are terrible against) that I'm starting to think that they are mandatory. Blood Moon just auto-wins games and deals with Karakas so I like keeping it there. Wipe Away against random answers to our deck. Pyroblast just as additional counterspells against other blue decks. I want to get rid of Grafdigger's Cage so badly, but there are several Reanimator players in my meta and I'm just dead to their deck without Cage. I also wanna fit some Through the Breaches in there but I'm not sure if they're worth having anymore.

Also, sorry for this noob question, but what do people generally side out with this deck? I know the Intuitions are normally the first to go (because Surgical Extraction is great against it) but beyond that, I never know what to remove. Some copies of Lotus Petal? Some counterspells? Cantrips? Some combo pieces? I agree that Sneak and Show's sideboard dilemmas are the worst part of the deck.

That board looks solid. I haven't had to fear reani too much in my meta, but it may be better in the meta and if so than some changes have to be made with the GY disrupt. As for the overall strategy, I wish I knew. I felt like I had an insight a few weeks ago where I divided the meta into two categories. One group is decks where all you have to do si resolve a SnT to win: Jund, Thresh, Team America, and Storm. Then the decks where you really had to combo out and win: Miracles, Stoneblade, Mav, Elves. Reani and the mirror was harder to place. Against the decks where all I needed to do was resolve a SnT I cut Petals first and one Intuition which gave me five slots to work with which seemed adequate for those match ups and accommodated the 4 Leylines. Against the decks that required me to combo out to win I cut 1 Petal and 1 Intuition and then mixed around with the protection suite. Pierce went out vs mav for bounce, I mixed the lands up with Bosieju for Stoneblade and Miracles. I played this deck at GP Denver and ran into problems with the blue count supporting both SnT and FOW, so its tough to cut the blue count in general. I don't know, my new strategy seems to work ok, but it doesnt work great. I'm looking for additional insights here in a serious way.
cheers

I agree the sideboard is tough. I scoured this thread, decklists, and tourney reports. I discounted white leylines early on. I could not see needing to mulligan to get a card that merely helps you and does not make you auto-win (and takes up 4x in the board). If you have to mulligan once or twice to get the white leyline, you're giving them 1-2 free "discard a random card" spells anyway. And most decks running discard will still have pressure to kill you if the mulligan means you need extra turns to go off, right? Is the white leyline still good if you're facing early pressure?

I've never tested any leylines, though I see lots of people playing white and black. Maybe I need to try them to see if they are really good. Against discard, I usually found Misdirection or Spell Pierce to be adequate.

The SB I wanted for the SCG event was:
2 echoing truth
2 wipe away
3 graffdigger's cage
2 vendillion clique
2 pyroblast
1 hydroblast
1 through the breach
2 defense grid

I ended up not getting the wipe aways and 2nd clique so played +1 hydroblast, blood moon, and divert. I did not really like the SB, but that seems to be a consistent problem for everybody. 3-4 slots for bounce spells and 1-2 through the breach seemed to be in every SB I reviewed. The rest varies a lot.

I like Cage over black leyline, and one of those two options seems like the only way we can beat Reanimator, right? (I've never played against it, but it looks like a horrible matchup). I don't like auto-losing to any matchup, so I opted to include some Cages. Cage is also very good against Dredge. I didn't find the Dredge matchup to be heavily in my favor, but I haven't played against it much. They can block Griselbrand all day long, and if they get Bridge from Below going, Emmy becomes much less useful. (Dredge seemed like a matchup where having Lotus Petal is very good.)

The black leyline I could actually see playing because it is much more of an (almost) auto-win against Dredge/Reanimator (unless they bounce).

Defense grid is pretty good against RUG and perhaps BUG, but I'm not sure against miracles/control. It seems like the control decks have more threats that could need countering on their turn (e.g., jace, bridge, detention sphere, helm/RIP).

The cliques and blasts are just all-around versatile answers. Cliques are preemptive bounce spells against control or snag a counterspell. They also serve as a slow clock against control. (In reality, clique almost always draws a Force of Will). I've seen other people play Pithing Needle, as well, as a versatile sideboard card

I haven't cared for Blood Moon much because against most decks that run heavy nonbasics (RUG, BUG, Jund, etc.) your opponent will often either have threats on the table by the time Blood Moon hits (RUG, BUG especially), or will have deathrite shaman (BUG, Jund). Even Maverick, probably the second best deck to play it against, seems to be playing deathrite now and is often GW/x or morphed into some junk/rock variant. Certainly the best deck to play it against is Turbo Eldrazi / 12 Post. And that can actually be a difficult matchup, right? So maybe I will change my tune on a few Blood Moons in the SB.

@Defector, Boseiju seems nice against control. Have you played it much? I really like the idea of 4x echoing truth (no wipe aways) and 2x boseiju.

@Grand Superior, I almost always take out Intuition, a land (/petal), and a preordain first. Sometimes a Misdirection. Show and Tell against matchups where it's not as good (obviously).

@Pavlaugh: Reani may very well become a good deck again. Todd Anderson recently posted a Reani-tel list that looks very sexy. It may have legs. I havent tested the Boseiju in live matches yet, just dicked around at home. So far it seems nice as the u/w whatevers are running no more than 2 wastes or a single dust bowl. It doesnt stop venser but that is pretty corner case. Just have two red avail snt in a sneak attack and kill them. I like it, but want real games against real opponents. I agree with you about dredge, we are favored but not by much. Given the small percentage in the overalk meta its hard to commit to leyline of the void. Idk love the deck hate the sb.