[DTB] Blade Control

Hi guys,

I'm currently playing a Esper Miracleblade hybrid list with great success. I'm still not convinced if this is an optimal maindeck and I'm still testing some things (like the 1 Entreat):

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the mind sculptor

3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas


The main problem right now is that a large part of my meta GBr NicFit with Punishing Fire (as well as Pernicious Deeds and Bonfire) and in 4 games against this deck I managed to win only 1 match (the other 3 resulted in a 0-0 draw because I couldnt beat the lategame reccuring PFire Engine and he wasn't able to damage me fast enough with me recasting Batterskull and other stuff, in the end both libraries were nearly empty). My gameplan was basically resolving an Entreat for lethal or destroying all groves with dust bowl, but in practice this worked only once. I think offering even more sideboard slots is not correct, because we didn't finish even one game in 3 of 4 matches.

What can I do to improve this preboard matchup?

-preddi

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Originally Posted by preddi

What can I do to improve this preboard matchup?
-preddi

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MD CB and I'd certainly cut black (not worth it for 2 MD slots).
i.e.:
-2 Ponder
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 EE
+3 CB
+1 Top
+1 Detention Sphere (better curve and definitey better in the straight UW version)

Cutting Black seems interesting, but I doubt CB is the answer here. Between Deed, GSZ for enchantment removal there are Abrupt Decay too. This will be a pain in the ... :(

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Haha it's getting there! I havent really needed more than 2 EE any game yet so I don't see the need for Academy Ruins sadly. And I like RIP because of it's flexibility, and when I am bringing it in, I am making sure that it is hurting my opponent much more than it is hurting me. The one reason I have debated Academy Ruins is because sometimes my batterskull/Jitte dies and Im like :/ Maybe Ill try it out in place of what? Maybe a Hallowed Fountain?

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Academy Ruins is really good. A lot of times your Jitte/Batterskull will get blown up, and it's nice to get some of your biggest win cons back out of the graveyard (and at instant speed!). Also, recurring EE's are good in really grindy games, and not to mention the MD Relic you have. It just has a lot of utility overall, and I would recommend it, for sure. :)

Edit: @thread
I also tested Bobs last week, and they were really good. Most of the time that I landed one I was so far ahead with card advantage and answers, that my opponent couldn't keep up.

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Originally Posted by preddi

Hi guys,

I'm currently playing a Esper Miracleblade hybrid list with great success. I'm still not convinced if this is an optimal maindeck and I'm still testing some things (like the 1 Entreat):

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the mind sculptor

3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas


The main problem right now is that a large part of my meta GBr NicFit with Punishing Fire (as well as Pernicious Deeds and Bonfire) and in 4 games against this deck I managed to win only 1 match (the other 3 resulted in a 0-0 draw because I couldnt beat the lategame reccuring PFire Engine and he wasn't able to damage me fast enough with me recasting Batterskull and other stuff, in the end both libraries were nearly empty). My gameplan was basically resolving an Entreat for lethal or destroying all groves with dust bowl, but in practice this worked only once. I think offering even more sideboard slots is not correct, because we didn't finish even one game in 3 of 4 matches.

What can I do to improve this preboard matchup?

-preddi

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Not playing Counterbalance would be probably the right call in that meta. Stoneblade decks are quite bad against Cabal Therapy decks due to the ability to grind you out.

I don't really understand why you are splashing 3 Seas for only 2 Thoughtseize in the mainboard? Is that really worth the unstable manabase? I'm not sure this is the way to take the deck here.

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Originally Posted by thra1l

Academy Ruins is really good. A lot of times your Jitte/Batterskull will get blown up, and it's nice to get some of your biggest win cons back out of the graveyard (and at instant speed!). Also, recurring EE's are good in really grindy games, and not to mention the MD Relic you have. It just has a lot of utility overall, and I would recommend it, for sure. :)

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Sadly Academy Ruins and Relic is a nonbo due to the relic exiling itself. Its why I am more than likely going to just go ahead and play a Tormod's Crypt. I think tomorrow night I'll have to test out the Academy ruins in place of a Mishra's Factory I think. I also think that Dust bowl has a possible spot in here somewhere, though again I don't know what, and I would rather not stretch my mana base too thin.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Timelys so far have been alright. It does help to get the bodies out there to pick up a Jitte. To be honest I havent used it much. I tested it against UR delver and I probably don't NEED it. My Meta has a good amount of goblins in it, so I think it would be solid to chump or something. What is a good way to beat Goblins? (Other than Jitte) I guess Humility is pretty solid vs them?

Edit: How about like 2-3 Geist of Saint Traft in the board for the Miracle MU? to be honest the mirror and miracles I havent tested too much and I am severely worried about this MU.

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i've done a moderate amount of testing against that MU, and humility is insane. if they're not playing K. Grip, they're not beating it, especially if you get a jit going too. Geists are a good call too, but it's not the worst MU ever. if you were playing Black id say Lingering Souls but Geist is alright. They can still Terminus it. Red Blasts are pretty good.

You think like 2x Humility is good then? Because it isn't awful vs SnT I guess? I could drop the Magus of the Moons

Humility is not great against Miracles. Miracles often plays Humility themselves, sometime even maindeck. Sure, it turns the angels into 1/1 chumps, but angels is by no means the only, or even primary, win con for Miracles against a control deck, and there are plenty of ways to compensate:
- Terminus/Verdict- I'll probably leave some or all in if you're playing tokens.
- Top- If you're holding onto a Humility waiting for me to Entreat, I can get at least one big swing in by flipping the Top at EOT.
- Jace- Sticking a Jace is priority #1-2 (along with sticking a Counterbalance and/or Top). This is my most likely path to victory, and if I have to sweep the board to protect him, believe me I will.
- Equipment- For Miracle Blade decks, a Batterskull can work wonders under Humility, especially once I have enough mana to bounce it and re-cast it. In my
experience, a recurring Batterskull wins against a 1/1 with a Jitte, unless you can overrun the board with expendable 1/1s (in which case you're more susceptible to sweepers).
- O-Ring- No explanation necessary.
- RiP/Helm- if I can delay you long enough to get this combo, you're just dead.

Timely isn't likely to do a lot against Miracles because miracles doesn't tend to pressure your life early. It certainly can happen, but typically the Stomeblade player is going to be the more aggressive one in this matchup because Miracles can out control it given enough time. I wouldn't board in Timely.

Now, are you going to fetch a Jitte off an early SFM against Miracles? Most likely only if you have a Lingering Souls in your hand. Otherwise, you're likely to end up with a Jitte and no creatures to equip it on, given the amount of removal Miracles has (and again, is likely to keep some of that in post-board). And they're not likely to give you many juicy targets for the counters (a Clique maybe, but they've already done the work once they enter the battlefield).

In summary, I think relying on Humility to stop Miracles because it's good against 1-2 cards in their deck is faulty logic. I would leave the Humility in the sideboard against Miracles and instead bring in an extra Clique, Jace Beleran if you're running him, Spell Snare, and/or extra discard.

I played a few hands versus UW Miracles the other day and the match felt terribly lopsided, at least pre-board. I guess most of the losses can be accounted for by me being terrible and not playing properly against Miracles, but to me there were so many cards I hated to see from his side. I played UWr (been going back and forth between the red and the black splash) and felt that both pieces of the countertop synergy were difficult to handle, Counterbalance was obviously more troublesome, but he had enough mana and the games were grindy enough to make Top's card quality advantage really relevant.

I was unable to out-aggro him due to the large amounts of removal he played, and I felt I was on the backfoot on the long game as well, more or less due entirely to his Counterbalance(s).

When playing Esper Blade, what is the overall game-plan against Miracles?

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Originally Posted by matunos

Humility is not great against Miracles. Miracles often plays Humility themselves, sometime even maindeck. Sure, it turns the angels into 1/1 chumps, but angels is by no means the only, or even primary, win con for Miracles against a control deck, and there are plenty of ways to compensate:
- Terminus/Verdict- I'll probably leave some or all in if you're playing tokens.
- Top- If you're holding onto a Humility waiting for me to Entreat, I can get at least one big swing in by flipping the Top at EOT.
- Jace- Sticking a Jace is priority #1-2 (along with sticking a Counterbalance and/or Top). This is my most likely path to victory, and if I have to sweep the board to protect him, believe me I will.
- Equipment- For Miracle Blade decks, a Batterskull can work wonders under Humility, especially once I have enough mana to bounce it and re-cast it. In my
experience, a recurring Batterskull wins against a 1/1 with a Jitte, unless you can overrun the board with expendable 1/1s (in which case you're more susceptible to sweepers).
- O-Ring- No explanation necessary.
- RiP/Helm- if I can delay you long enough to get this combo, you're just dead.

Timely isn't likely to do a lot against Miracles because miracles doesn't tend to pressure your life early. It certainly can happen, but typically the Stomeblade player is going to be the more aggressive one in this matchup because Miracles can out control it given enough time. I wouldn't board in Timely.

Now, are you going to fetch a Jitte off an early SFM against Miracles? Most likely only if you have a Lingering Souls in your hand. Otherwise, you're likely to end up with a Jitte and no creatures to equip it on, given the amount of removal Miracles has (and again, is likely to keep some of that in post-board). And they're not likely to give you many juicy targets for the counters (a Clique maybe, but they've already done the work once they enter the battlefield).

In summary, I think relying on Humility to stop Miracles because it's good against 1-2 cards in their deck is faulty logic. I would leave the Humility in the sideboard against Miracles and instead bring in an extra Clique, Jace Beleran if you're running him, Spell Snare, and/or extra discard.

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Im pretty sure we were talking about the Goblins MU. Of course Timely is awful vs Miracles lol

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Originally Posted by Purgatory

I played a few hands versus UW Miracles the other day and the match felt terribly lopsided, at least pre-board. I guess most of the losses can be accounted for by me being terrible and not playing properly against Miracles, but to me there were so many cards I hated to see from his side. I played UWr (been going back and forth between the red and the black splash) and felt that both pieces of the countertop synergy were difficult to handle, Counterbalance was obviously more troublesome, but he had enough mana and the games were grindy enough to make Top's card quality advantage really relevant.

I was unable to out-aggro him due to the large amounts of removal he played, and I felt I was on the backfoot on the long game as well, more or less due entirely to his Counterbalance(s).

When playing Esper Blade, what is the overall game-plan against Miracles?

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I don't know about the others (i play u/w and not esper), but I use geist of saint traft as a creature they can only deal with mass removal (read, terminus and/or supreme verdict), sword of war and peace as a way to go through entreats angels, put decent clock and blank their removal, and elspeth as a token machine. Aside from that, you must not to let a counterbalance hit play , and explosive is very powerful in the matchup (you can even play it for higher casting cost to dodge counterbalance). But yeah, overall, that mactchup isn't easy, but definately winable.

So Geist is pretty solid vs Miracles? I may try him out. Probably will wait until the damn price drops though... 40 bucks is too steep for a SB standard card for me lol.

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Not playing Counterbalance would be probably the right call in that meta. Stoneblade decks are quite bad against Cabal Therapy decks due to the ability to grind you out.

I don't really understand why you are splashing 3 Seas for only 2 Thoughtseize in the mainboard? Is that really worth the unstable manabase? I'm not sure this is the way to take the deck here.

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Yeah the manabase is actually a relic of my old esper list with 4 Discard spells and EE, so I didn't change it yet. Thanks for the advice. Well in germany NicFit is a part of the meta for a long time now. At my local tournament over 20% of the players played it for months. As far as I can tell, the matchup was really good for blade decks (Especially with Elspeth,SoFF and maybe even Geist). But in the current meta I think these cards are not good enough, maybe Geist against miracles and rug, but certainly questionable.

I think I will rework the manabase and stick with my gameplan of resolving entreat for lethal or dust bowl the groves away.

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Originally Posted by ThediscoPower

I don't know about the others (i play u/w and not esper), but I use geist of saint traft as a creature they can only deal with mass removal (read, terminus and/or supreme verdict), sword of war and peace as a way to go through entreats angels, put decent clock and blank their removal, and elspeth as a token machine. Aside from that, you must not to let a counterbalance hit play , and explosive is very powerful in the matchup (you can even play it for higher casting cost to dodge counterbalance). But yeah, overall, that mactchup isn't easy, but definately winable.

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Until your Geist is actually sworded up, a Clique or Snapcaster can also take him out.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Im pretty sure we were talking about the Goblins MU. Of course Timely is awful vs Miracles lol

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I think Timely is awful against Goblins too. It's a sorcery for one, so you're not surprising anyone with it. And it makes a few chumpers that Goblins can quickly dispatch with either a Sharpshooter or just charging over the top with. You better have a Jitte out to make that sort of play, and generally, Batterskull is going to be better in that situation (esp. if you have enough mana to bounce it).

I'd rather have the Ghostly Prison against Goblins- very hard for them to get rid of, and effectively keeps them from alpha striking, no matter how many goblins they can get on the field. I think their win con then basically becomes Siege-Gang Commander+Sharpshooter. Of course, Moat stops their attacks completely, if you have one, can muster the additional mana, and can get some fliers going with a Jitte.

It probably is pretty awful against them. I do like the Ghostly Prison Idea. I would like it more if I had some mana denial. Sadly I don't have a Moat. I may have access to one for bigger tourneys though. I have felt pretty good against Goblins though. Ringleader is rough if they hit on it, but post board going to 5 STP effects with a Path seems good against their T1 Lackey. Also running 3 Supreme verdict and 2 EE post board as well, along with of course Jitte wrecking them pretty badly. Maybe a second Jitte in the board for if the first one gets blown up?

The reason I like Ghostly Prison against Goblins is that they don't tend to have to a lot of mana, and they like to use what they do have to port down your lands, so this forces them to choose. Even if they do spend all their mana to attack, that is likely to only allow two or three guys in, which is easy to absorb, especially of you've got some removal in hand or blockers ready.

Verdict is good, but they may be able to keep you off the necessary mana with Wastelands and Port.

(Note: my experience with Goblins is from playing Miracle Blade, not Stoneblade per se.)

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Originally Posted by matunos

Until your Geist is actually sworded up, a Clique or Snapcaster can also take him out.

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well, where I live they don't play snapcaster in miracles, but clique can kill geist indeed. However, my point was that I was satisfied with the role of mass sweeper waster + good clock he has in the matchup.

If he hits twice thats 12 damage. After that he is lethal (counting 2 fetches). Thats a good clock for a 3 drop.