[Deck] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by mikeisgo

I've been playing around with a list pretty much based on what Andrew Schneider's winning list from SCG Knox. I really love playing the deck so far. One question I have centers a bit around the 9th burn spell. Forked Bolt did the job in Knoxville, but I started playing with Fire / Ice, and also have considered Izzet Charm as something that could go in there. Honestly the first reason I did this, is I don't actually own any Forked Bolts right now (i know they're cheap, they're in the mail to me right now, local stores didn't have them in the commons bins, how dare they!!). Anyway in playing I've run into a few interesting situations where having the utility of the Fire // Ice being able to draw a card actually put me in a position to win against an esper deck. It essentially let me delay along with digging to get another card. It also accomplishes what Forked Bolt does, except it cost 1R instead of just R.

Anyway I was looking at people's opinions relating to pro's and con's of using either of those 3, here's my take so far:

Izzet Charm: It lets you loot, its instant, it kills stoneforge and deathrite, its an extra (but more expensive) spell pierce, and it pitches to FOW. It does not go to the face, and of course its more expensive than forked bolt, it can't hit two targets, and requires you have both colors to use it...

Forked Bolt: its a 1 mana burn spell that hits for 2 along with being able to target two things, which makes it much easier to snapcaster mage cast it for value. Its the most efficient thing to be an analogy of lightning bolt. It doesn't pitch to FOW, and its sorcery speed, which since it can target two things, makes it better than shock for certain situations where you want that utility.

Fire // Ice: It does what forked bolt does for 2 mana, its instant, its also slows down people, by tapping Goyf or Batterskull. It can draw you a card and it pitches to FOW. You can get utility out of it even if you are shut off from one or the other color. All this though makes it more expensive and harder to cast when you really need it.

Anyway. I think it comes kind of down to what you want to do and what types of decks you are facing. I'm also looking for peoples opinions on what else might be interesting to fit into this sort of slot.

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I'd love to play Fire // Ice in that spot. I just think its important to kill the turn 1 Deathrite. That slot could actually be anything.

It all comes down to anything costing more than one may cost another game turn and is more difficult to Flashback with Snapcaster Mage. I do like playing with a couple of Fire//Ice though, primarily because it pitches to Force of Will. Most of the time the damage you could get by tapping down a blocker is just better to go straight to the dome. Sometimes though, if you tap a Goyf or something down before their attack phase and cantrip into a Bolt or something and save 4+ damage to you plus possible lifelink for them and possibly allow a couple more from a Guide, can be more of a value in point swing than what you always have to measure it by: is this messing about on the board better than just 3 to the dome? Occasionally yes, so I like two of them, and plus not having another blue for Force can be a problem sometimes.

Turn//Burn is also interesting, though I've yet to use it. The mana for fuse would be very late game or flooded so that ability is not wourth considering much on it's merits. Burn is not as good as some of the other direct damage, but Turn is kind of interesting for Goblin Guide which gets real bad after a couple if turns. You can just keep attacking with him every turn and dare them to block with a Goyf. After it gets turned into a 0/1 and killed once they may be wary of blocking the Guide again, allowing you to bluff with a card in hand and attack with him every turn with impunity. Perhaps corner cases of responding to a creature activation with it can also be useful. And it pitches to Force. The question, as always, is it better than just 3 more to the dome or an extra mana for Snapcaster?

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Originally Posted by NathanS2k

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Originally Posted by JDK

btw please use the signature forum feature instead of putting this obnoxious stuff into every post of yours. It's really annoying when quoting.

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qft

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qft x2

The ability to flashback a forkbolt seems really appealing to me and I will try one (I am running 3 spell pierce rather than 2 - Im afraid of chalices, etc)

I have a question to the 3 Lava spikes in the board of Andrew Schneiders deck.
What situations/decks do you board them in against?

I could imagine using them against decks packing large creatures like Goyf, etc?

Oh sry i thought this is the signature forum,then i should be wrong here.

@topic:
It seems that lavaspike comes in against decks where force of will is not needed,say delver decks in general.
(The deck becomes a burn deck)
What i kinda dislike about spike is that it can only deal damage to a player,not to a creature.
Maybe fireblast is another option?(the downside is the dissynergy with snapcaster)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Oh sry i thought this is the signature forum,then i should be wrong here.

@topic:
It seems that lavaspike comes in against decks where force of will is not needed,say delver decks in general.
(The deck becomes a burn deck)
What i kinda dislike about spike is that it can only deal damage to a player,not to a creature.
Maybe fireblast is another option?(the downside is the dissynergy with snapcaster)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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What if you took 3 forkbolt in the board instead? same speed, 1 less damage, can hit creatures, can be divided, same cost.

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Oh sry i thought this is the signature forum,then i should be wrong here.

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You know it is annoying and if you really didn't, you've been told by several people by now. No need to act like a pubertal kid and go full douche-mode. Just put it in your signature, problem solved. Move along.

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

@topic:
It seems that lavaspike comes in against decks where force of will is not needed,say delver decks in general.
(The deck becomes a burn deck)
What i kinda dislike about spike is that it can only deal damage to a player,not to a creature.
Maybe fireblast is another option?(the downside is the dissynergy with snapcaster)

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I'm still not sold on Lava Spike, but Fireblast doesn't suite the deck very well, as you want to be able to use Snapcaster Mage to its fullest extent (as you've already pointed out yourself). It also often restricts your manabase, since you cannot fetch for basic Islands as easily anymore, if you incorporate Fireblast.

@Neffy
Lava Spike is better than Forked Bolt against Goyf decks, since it's better at racing them.

What about Thunderous Wrath?
I used to have 3 in my main deck and they were great against "big creatures"

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Originally Posted by dog_koko

What about Thunderous Wrath?
I used to have 3 in my main deck and they were great against "big creatures"

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Same argument here, as for Fireblast. You cannot Flashback it, and it is very situational. With Brainstorm it is a deadcard in any starting hand.

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Originally Posted by dog_koko

What about Thunderous Wrath?
I used to have 3 in my main deck and they were great against "big creatures"

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Not again....just use the search function.

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Originally Posted by Neffy

The ability to flashback a forkbolt seems really appealing to me and I will try one (I am running 3 spell pierce rather than 2 - Im afraid of chalices, etc)

I have a question to the 3 Lava spikes in the board of Andrew Schneiders deck.
What situations/decks do you board them in against?

I could imagine using them against decks packing large creatures like Goyf, etc?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNkgVuIGiUM

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Originally Posted by Andrew.Schneider

I'd love to play Fire // Ice in that spot. I just think its important to kill the turn 1 Deathrite. That slot could actually be anything.

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Yeah i think you have a great point about turn 1 deathrite shaman.

Someone else suggested Turn / Burn. I really wish the Burn half of Turn/Burn just cost 'R' instead of 1R, if it was cheaper, i could easily see that being up there with forked bolt.

I finally put most of this deck together and brought it to my local cash legacy tourney to a 3-0-1 finish with and ID in my last round. I'm $60 buck richer! This deck feels really good and right where I should be playing.

I am playing pretty close to the list Andrew Schneider won SCGKNOX with but I cut a Git Probe and FoW for 2x Daze (only have 3 FoW right now).

2-0 against MUD
2-1 against Esper Deathblade (I drew 9 of my fetches the game I lost)
2-0 against UWr Miracles
ID against BUG Delver

I have a few questions about sideboarding.

When is it appropriate to board out FoW for Lava Spikes, just in the fair matchups? Last night I boarded them out (and Daze) against Esper and Miracles but kept them in against MUD.

Is it ever appropriate to board out Goblin Guide? Decks with Top seems to be able to take special advantage of him, however boarding him out can significantly reduce the pressure I can apply.

I'll be bringing U/R Delver to my local tonight.

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

I feel like you just scoop to Counterbalance in Miracles matchup, so I would not probably side them out, depends really how many blasts you have to take in, but I myself feel with UR Dreadstill that I want blasts and the FOWs.

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Originally Posted by Trei_gamer

I finally put most of this deck together and brought it to my local cash legacy tourney to a 3-0-1 finish with and ID in my last round. I'm $60 buck richer! This deck feels really good and right where I should be playing.

I am playing pretty close to the list Andrew Schneider won SCGKNOX with but I cut a Git Probe and FoW for 2x Daze (only have 3 FoW right now).

2-0 against MUD
2-1 against Esper Deathblade (I drew 9 of my fetches the game I lost)
2-0 against UWr Miracles
ID against BUG Delver

I have a few questions about sideboarding.

When is it appropriate to board out FoW for Lava Spikes, just in the fair matchups? Last night I boarded them out (and Daze) against Esper and Miracles but kept them in against MUD.

Is it ever appropriate to board out Goblin Guide? Decks with Top seems to be able to take special advantage of him, however boarding him out can significantly reduce the pressure I can apply.

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1st of all, congrats on your finish =)

about sideboarding, you gotta keep in mind that u are a (bad =X) burn. but being a bad burn on a fair matchup is just as troublesome as a burn deck.

so, you should board out FoWs when they are not very relevant (delver, jund, maverick and such matchups)

when you face decks that you can get blown out by one card alone (blightsteel, chalice, reanimate, show and tell... you get the drift), you play the game trying to pressure the opp and disrupt whatever he is trying to do.

that being said, you can't remove your pressure, since you only get to burn your opp 11 times. (assuming 4 bolt, 4 chain, 3 spikes)

if thing go well, you pressure the opp enough that 4 burn spells get the job done =)

(i dont play this deck often, so i hope i didnt say anything stupid =X)

X-0'd the local with my Pyromancer-Delver list, without dropping a game in the Swiss.

2-0: Belcher
2-0: Punishing Jund
2-0: Affinity
2-0: U/R Painter

Deck was super-solid all the way around the board. I'll get a list up later.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

X-0'd the local with my Pyromancer-Delver list, without dropping a game in the Swiss.

2-0: Belcher
2-0: Punishing Jund
2-0: Affinity
2-0: U/R Painter

Deck was super-solid all the way around the board. I'll get a list up later.

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I have been looking for a solid Pyromancer-Delver list since I saw Eric Rill playing it. If you could post your list and some match details, I would appreciate it!

So, I wanted to try and approach the archetype in somewhat of a different manner. I've been secretly piloting U/R Delver variants on the side, so I decided to bring this one out of the woodwork and see how well it could perform in a relatively diverse local meta.

First, here's the list I currently have sleeved up and what I played last night:

4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Gut Shot
1 Dismember

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mountain
3 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Hydroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Annul
2 Divert
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Let me make a few comments about the list before I go into the small report:

First and foremost, this deck's fabric was designed to compete more with the local meta, which while diverse, is usually fairly predictable. There are some changes I would easily make to the list if I were to take it to a larger event and compete with it, but for the most part it functioned extremely well. Some of the card choices can be plug-and-play, like the main-deck Flusterstorms and sideboard Jitte. I tried giving the deck an honest balance of offense and defense, as opposed to overloading in one area. Young Pyromancer is an offense-minded card that can generate an army in a hurry.

This brings me to my next point: free spells. Cards like Probe and Gut Shot make Pyromancer fire on all cylinders. In conjunction with Snapcaster Mage you can get value in a hurry. I was shocked at Gut Shot's power in this deck, which can create a massive swing on the board state in a hurry. There were times when cards like Chain Lightning would have sufficed better, and they'll surely find a spot in the sixty in some multiples.

Here were the match-ups with twenty folks slinging spells:

Round One vs. Belcher [2-0]

Both games came down to Force of Will just blowing him out on key spells. He did resolve a Belcher game one, but had no mana to activate it. I Wasted his Taiga and countered any attempt to generate mana, including Chrome Mox. Delver and Snapcaster provided the power and redundancy in counters to finish him in very short order.

Round Two vs. Punishing Jund [2-0]

Game one was a battle of attrition that really came down to counters locking up the game and Delver going to town. Young Pyromancer provided the gummed-up board state, and I was able to burn him out with a Snapcaster-Bolt for the win.

Game two was very short. He attempted a turn one DRS, which resolved. I had Delver in play in the early going, and at one point he activates DRS to exile a land from my graveyard, taps his Forest and tries Punishing Fire on my Delver. With only a single mana open, I Divert it to his DRS. He slouches. I Waste his Bayou and pass. At this point he's stuck on mana and can only muster up basic Forest, Waste, Waste. I proceed to beat him down mercilessly with Delver and friends. He can't recover in time, and yet again Bolt seals the deal.

Round Three vs. Affinity [2-0]

My opponent starts off my dumping a few guys turn one and a land and passes. I land Delver. He tries Plating, and it's Dazed. I then flip Delver, kill his creatures and Waste his land. This cripples him as he cannot draw another mana source until it's too late. I am able to Gut Shot his Memnites twice with Snapcaster, and generate tokens off Pyromancer. I beat him down with my guys with heavy counter back-up.

Game two I brought in the obvious choices that deal with a deck like Affinity. He lands Chalice on one turn one. It resolves. I eventually land Pyromancer x2, and that with spells that are countered still gum the board up heavy enough that I'm able to power through his guys and beat him down for the win. I did Waste him out too, which kept him down. He took some damage off an Ancient Tomb, which softened him up nicely for the kill. Jitte and Clique joined the party and it was over.

Round Four vs. U/R Painter [2-0]

Game one he keeps a questionable hand, and I'm able to Bolt out his Painter, Waste him early and beat down with a flipped Delver for a few turns until it gets Blasted. By that time, it didn't matter: Snapcaster finished him off with Bolt to the dome. I Dismembered his Painter's Servants twice, which was pretty cool. I Forced pitching a land to protect my second attempt at killing the Scarecrow.

In comes the Surgical Extraction, and we get an attrition war going. I Gut Shot Welder when he activates it to bring Painter into play after casting Intuition, which resolved beforehand. I then Brainstorm, and Surgical sent his Scarecrows packing and earning an immediate concession as he had no other way to win. Interesting.

I drew the last round and lost in the Top 4 to another U/R variant where I couldn't hit my removal, but he managed to hit his. I'm at work now, so I'll likely update this post later with what I'd change and how I'd make adjustments going forward. The deck was very aggressive, and I missed at least another few burn spells. But I wanted to go a more permission-based route, as opposed to doming opponents with the deck with burn spells. That was possibly a mistake on my part, which I didn't want my record in the Swiss to mask as a flaw.

I'll make adjustments and comment later on what changes I'd make.

One-upped the performance from the local from last week by finishing the job and winning the event this week. I felt extremely comfortable with the changes, and their application came into significant use during the course of this tournament.

To start, here was the list I ran with:

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Gut Shot
1 Fire/Ice

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Hydroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Divert
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique

...And here are the results of my match-ups:

1-2 vs. Belcher
2-1 vs. Manaless Dredge
2-0 vs. Sneak and Show
2-0 vs. Death and Taxes
2-0 vs. U/R Pyromancer

Belcher

The first game saw me mulligan to five cards in order to see if I could land a Force and blue card for the blowout. I wasn't able to find them, but I did have a decent keep with some action. Unfortunately, my opponent was on the play and managed to make a lot of tokens turn one that I couldn't stop.

Game two saw a Force of Will for the blowout, and a Delver with Snapcaster ran his life total from 20 to 0.

The third and deciding game saw me once again mulligan to five cards, and when I couldn't land a Force, I decided to keep because my hand was still decent. My opponent had tanked for a while looking at his hand in discomfort, which made me think he was either contemplating going all-in, or praying the top card of his library was really good. He dropped a Belcher turn one with no way to activate it. I manage to stick a few threats and beat his life total down for a few turns. He has a Chrome Mox that makes red, and I have two Hydroblasts in hand. He stares lethal on board at five life and I passed the turn. After Probing him, I know his only out is Lion's Eye Diamond. He draws Lion's Eye Diamond, activates Belcher and a Taiga is twelve cards deep and good enough for him to win.

Wasn't overly pleased with that outcome, but vindication was in sight.

Manaless Dredge

Oh, the irony. The first game was a mess and I basically played as well and tight as I could to steal a win. My opponent is terrified because he knows who I am and is scared knowing I know how to play against and beat the deck. I can't do much game one, so I actually concede and move on to game two.

The second game saw a Surgical Extraction remove multiple dumped Trolls from a Phantasmagorian, which turned out to be a blowout, It got even worse for him with the Snapcaster in my hand and a freshly drawn Cage from the top. The game was over turn three.

In game three, I mulligan to six with a solid keep that has Surgical and Delver in hand. I manage to cripple his graveyard early, and combat tricks with a recently-cast Pyromancer allowed me to knock off his Bridges and stave off damage. This enabled me to shoot a few Bolts at his head and finish him off with Insectile Aberration.

Sneak and Show

I open the game up with multiple counters and a Delver of Secrets. My opponent's keep was average, as I Probed him and saw his cards. Delver rode to the finish line after Flusterstorm and Forces kept him off Show and Tell, with Daze helping against Sneak Attack.

Game two was rather anticlimactic, as my opponent mulliganed to six with a potential turn-two Show and Tell into Emrakul. However, I snap-kept my hand - which concerned him. This tactic actually worked, as I telegraphed a Daze or Force in my hand without actually having them. He passed turn two without a play, which made me feel good. I draw a Force off the top, which was huge. Pyromancer and Delver were able to beat him down, and after we fought early over a Show and Tell, he could not beat Red Blast and Force. He also tried Sneak Attack, which met Hydroblast. This was enough to seal the deal.

Death and Taxes

Game one was actually really fast - burn was able to keep his threats in check and Fire/Ice came up huge - knocking off two one-toughness dudes. Vial met Daze early. After he ran out of steam, Young Pyromancer was able to clog the board up and attack him out for the win. Delver also joined the party a little later to flip and win the game.

The second game was very close. My opponent landed a turn-one Mom, but Gut Shot was able to knock out those shenanigans. My opponent tried the turn-two Stoneforge, which I Dazed. Delver flipped and beat my opponent down a few turns before it was sent farming. At this point in time, my opponent had Thalia and Flickerwisp in play. I had managed to Preordain into Fire and Ice, which was a blowout. After this, a True-Name Nemesis was able to ride out the win for his remaining life points - but a Bolt to the dome sealed the deal.

U/R Pyromancer

Against my good friend Doug. We have a cantripping battle to start the game off, both of us sculpting our hands. Doug can't really get anything going early, so he Bolts down a few of my guys and I manage to knock off a few of his dudes. I play a little more conservatively, which winds up being a good thing as I fill my hand with action. I eventually land a Pyromancer, which sticks. After he lands Jace and I let it resolve, he Brainstorms with a single fetch up. I attack Jace down to a single counter and proceed to Gut Shot it out. I make a few tokens and he kills the Pyromancer. I get him down to five life after he tanks and lets a Bolt resolve. I attack him the next turn, putting him to three. I bring in Snapcaster and try the Bolt for the win. Doug Forces, I Force back. He extends the hand, and I show him an additional Force with blue card.

Game two was a little more grindy. I kept a hand with a Mountain and some burn with Lavamancer. Doug throughout this game has little action, but plenty of filter [odd]. At any rate, I managed to close the game out when I try two Delvers, letting one die. Lavamancer kept him a little off balance early, and it was promptly killed once an attack went through. A Jace was eventually Bolted, which went through. Eventually, the one Insectile Aberration that survived his defenses goes the distance with an Umezawa's Jitte. He had eventually landed a Koth, which ultimately didn't matter. He only had one Mountain in play and wasn't pinging me or my dudes out even if he had survived that long. He gets a few swings in, but my life total was still healthy and I had counters to either gain life or knock off Koth - if I really wanted to [which I didn't]. Doug looks at his cards and extends the hand when Jitte and the Insectile prove their mettle.

I think the deck performed extremely well and I was very pleased with the configuration. Eighteen lands was definitely good enough with the Brainstorms and Preordains, and while some folks like Ponder more, I feel that in this variation of U/R that the filter is key to help me with quality looks and smooth draws. It has worked surprisingly well thus far.

As for changes, I'll look at the deck some more and see if there's anything I'd swap out. If I do, it would probably be more in the sideboard than the main. There weren't a lot of Goyfs in this meta today, so I subbed out Dismember for Fire/Ice - which was clearly the right call. Deck was fun to play and has proven to be very competitive in its initial conception.