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So Troll then. Got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Since several people who play the deck including myself were only having issues and thus discussing specifically the "liliana/hymn decks" and then you interject with incoherent babble. Troll hat awarded.
While I don't live in a Magical Christmas land where that happens every time, I do play in an environment saturated with BUG because :b::u::g: is basically a mesh of the best stand alone cards in print right now. I'm going to be trying for 3-4 Obstinate Baloths because I remember its usefulness when I played Mono-:g: Eldrazi in the Caw-Blade Standard. I admit 4 may be a bit overkill, but honestly, testing will show how it should balance out in Legacy rather than 2010-11 Standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Also, if you really want to wow us, then tell us something that you would deem more playable than this solution.
Also Rock Lee: my serious discussion point:
I've noticed you scaled the blue back to where it seems you don't have the support to have Force of Will in your 75, and you've scaled back your countermagic to 6 (7 counting Venser, Shaper Savant, 10 if opponent's can't deal with Phyrexian Revoker in a timely manner). I guess my big question is why since generally, Force catches everything and as soon as before your Turn 1.
Almost all turn 1-2 kills involve the graveyard, so surgical only results in going down 1 zero-mana play, isn't reliant on other cards, and still works against non-combo variants. Ultimately fow can't kill them, just prevent you from losing. And while this deck often plays to "not lose, not win," there are limits to that logic, and fow teeters on that edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
I am not anti the other blue cards in the deck, ponder/trinket mage, I just am realizing that against every deck Phyrexian Revoker has a name, and against the decks that threaten you, he has great names.
Also in other news, I am testing hilarious show and tell options like Terastadon
I've been meaning to ask about exactly that card. While giving an opponent multiple dorks is never fun, I've also happily used Swan Song on many a spell even knowing the bird would probably get in at least 3 or 4 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I'm curious why you moved away from Commandeer. I realize its cost is fairly hefty and it doesn't do much against storm, but it seems to be reasonably catch-all in its applications. I guess this is particularly relevant to me because pretty much every Legacy deck is represented where I play. As it is there are at least a dozen different cards I want to play, but obviously can't.
I know, it frustrates me too, but I always tell myself it's better than Griselbrand, and then I don't care what I give them does to me. But Rock seems to be trending more :g: than :u: at the moment, which is why he may want Ratchet Bomb because it's cheap removal that doesn't require holding up :2: to :5: mana like Engineered Explosives or Oblivion Stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
And in terms of efficiency, I think I'd rather just play Beast Within and save Show and Tell, but I'm not against the idea of Terastodon either. A 9/9 that sets your opponent that far back in exchange for beaters isn't bad, it's just Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre is bigger. But eh, Terastodon just may be the finisher to replace Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (even though I still play him).
I think he did it for the same reason he moved away from Force of Will; there's just not enough blue cards in his deck to pay the alternate cost at the moment, and even if there was to speak for myself, I have yet to test it because I never saw what exactly opponents play that was worth a -2 card advantage to jack rather than counter when Force of Will does it better both in alt. cost and hardcast cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Newest list I'm experimenting with. Testing dropping SnT and its various ramifications. I know. Blasphem. Hence me testing it. Have to test all possibilities. So far have not had issues with aggro and midrange/tempo.
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
2 [ZEN] Forest (4)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [DS] Reap and Sow
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 4 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
Reap and Sow seems absolutely bonkers in this deck, being both Strip Mine and Crop Rotation, only with tons less sacrifice.
^^ not worth reading in here when realists get insulted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I haven't liked Reap and Sow in my testing, because it isn't protecting my lands the way Crop Rotation does, and it doesn't solve my primary problem which is getting overrun by Tribal decks every time I pilot this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
I remember saying something like 5 months ago about Show and Tell being somewhat of a high variance slot. It's definitely nice to have, but since the meta seems to be slowing down a bit overall, it seems like a nice time to try a list without S&T.
Reap and Sow seems kinda crap though to be honest, maybe Explore is better suited for the slot? Or Sylvan Scrying?
You are all insane
Tim saw my changes to the list and just walked out today. It was great! He said "I don't even know what you're playing anymore." Best compliment ever!Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
This is why I have been testing extensively. I would say 50% of the time Reap and Sow gets Glacial Chasm, which gives me crop rotate up to save the chasm via vesuva, rather than before where I had to have cards in hand (read, only 1 of x4 titan) with Show & Tell, then hope/rely on them not wasting me out the next turn. Reap and Sow gives far more options under less ideal circumstances. Although as my local meta player Josh pointed out, the card should really be called "Search and Destroy."Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
I split the finals of my local weekly event with this deck, beating BuG, DnT, and drawing with another DnT.
Revoker was beast. I think I will start siding in surgical vs DnT since the only way they have even half a chance is to wastex2+ you.
The best and worst part of every deck ever being represented in your area is that you can face just about anything...so it was, this week.
0-2 versus Storm. 2-0 versus Storm. 2-1 versus Dredge (not manaless). 1-1-1 versus High Tide. 0-2 versus mono blue Delver. The last matchup featured two mulligans to five and then drawing absolutely nothing. When you cast Crop Rotation just to try to get a shuffle effect, you're hurting.
That completely random meta also resulted in me boarding in the same ten cards in each of my first four matchups. Hooray for consistency I guess.
I like the idea of Reap and Sow being tested. I used to play it in my mono-green turd build. It's the only card besides Tempt with Discovery that can get any land card you want onto the battlefield without you having to sacrifice something. Being able to also blow something up is just gravy.
Lost in the finals of both my weekly Tuesday and Wednesday event due to Reap and Sow not being Show & Tell. So testing is concluded! Back in it goes. :D
So back to a "normal" build of the deck. And really the last x2 slot in my SB is all that is irking me. Love where the deck is now. Revokerx4 had me go 2-1 vs Sneaky Show, 2-0 vs Ant, and 2-0 vs TES at yesterday's event. Did exactly its job and easily. The 2-1 vs Sneaky Show was also them desperation show & telling and me having no dude, and no land tutors in 4 turns unmolested.
SO, the x2 slot in the sb is where I am wiggling, and I would like something against highly aggressive mana-denial tempo. I feel that discard is covered extremely well with Baloths, so really this is focusing on Rug, Esper, pure-aggro (ala goblins), with the hope of splashing onto elves, mud, and possibly normal tempo.
I assume that fog effects are the best here. Wondering which fog is the best?
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [ZEN] Forest (4)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [US] Show and Tell
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
Really I am debating between Moment's peace and Constant Mists. I feel that vs DRS Constant Mists is better, but then I won't be siding this in against most decks running DRS. Elves runs DRS, so that could be a concern, but they are mostly a DRS untap deck post chasm, which already prevents vs them. My stream of thoughts, unsure if this slot even needs to merit its justification, or if I should just put in Pithing needles as a lame cover-all, which is what I have at the moment.
Other options include Energy Field, Forcefield, Lull, Respite, Spore Frog, Tangle, and good ol' Maze of Ith.
There are also possible applications in Spike Feeder type cards, and the first person who suggests Archangel of Thune with spike feeder gets murdered.
I think anything that can eat an Abrupt Decay probably isn't the way to go. Spore Frog can also eat things like Lightning Bolt, and while Phyrexian Revoker can too, the effect the Frog provides is considerably more marginal. Unless you really enjoy saying, "I blow my Spore Frog" (and who doesn't?) I doubt that's the card you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Respite is okay but I think in most matchups it probably won't give enough life to really matter. Tangle is pretty good too - and it probably will net us more life than Respite would in terms of the damage it prevents attackers from doing next turn - but I think Moment's Peace is probably the best choice because it's the only option that at least partially resists countermagic. If we're going to devote any sideboard slots to Fog-type effects, then it's in our best interests to make sure that we're going to be able to Fog when we need to.
So I have been trying another route with this deck involving Tanglewire and chain of vapor maindeck. Testing has been good so far, I will post a list soon.
Look forward to seeing it. Love both those cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maagler
Here's what I've been brewing the last 24 hours:
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
2 [ZEN] Forest (4)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [THS] Sylvan Caryatid
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [US] Show and Tell
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [M14] Savage Summoning
I used to play with Moment's Peace in the board but that was before DRS. Tangle might be better than Mists, and it doesn't sink your mana like Moment's Peace. If you were playing Crucible, Constant Mists makes more sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
What is Sylvan Caryatid for? A meta-choice? I was thinking Exploration/Candelabra/Ponders would be better in those slots.