[DTB] Vial Goblins

I'ave been working on this build:

2 Seage Gang Commandeer
4 Goblin ringleader
4 Goblin piledriver
4 Goblin lackey
2 Goblin matorn
4 Goblin warchef
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorn
4 Force of woll
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 AEther vile
4 Wastland
6 fetches
4 Volcanic island
4 Shivan reef

Beeing able to protect the broken makes life easier. Plus their's lots of disruption using Force, daze, stifle, wasteland. Lots of tempo. How could the sideboard be made using a totally undeveloped color for Gobos?

Again You gain:
- Standstill, which together with Vial, Lackey, might be good.
- Stifle, which goes well with Wasteland.
- The ability to actually beat a combo deck for sure. Force, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland, together with a good clock, should be amazing!!.

You lose:
- Any half-decent way of dealing with a Tarmogoyf in the maindeck other than from the start.
- The ability to play the number of Siege-Gangs and Incinerators which you would otherwise like to.
- A good way to deal with Plagues and other random things. (There's bounce, but bounce isn't Grip.)

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Originally Posted by Bad Magic 101

Draw engine. put them back on top and reveal them.

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They are in you're hand to begin with! How many times do I have to say it? Ringleader is a draw engine all by himself, by the time you're playing it you only really want goblins.

Besides Brainstorm costing you tempo, the real argument against it is that you would have to cut Goblins, which makes Ringleader suck. I would sooner add some more Goblins to that original list in place of Standstills than cut more of them -- but then that makes your blue card count for boarding in Force perilously low. Really the reason I posted it this was because I was intrigued that there seems to exist a middle ground where Ringleader still works before boarding, and Force (just barely) works after boarding.

If you want to majorly cut down on Goblins to add 20 blue cards, there was another thread about that, somewhere...

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Originally Posted by edgewalker

They are in you're hand to begin with! How many times do I have to say it? Ringleader is a draw engine all by himself, by the time you're playing it you only really want goblins.

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No, no, no! If you draw three land, then put two goblins on top you just drew two more cards you wouldn't have gotten otherwise!

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Originally Posted by Bad Magic 101

No, no, no! If you draw three land, then put two goblins on top you just drew two more cards you wouldn't have gotten otherwise!

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I would appreciate it, if you could think about the main goals of goblins and what cards would be best in order to achieve that goal. If you think about it, blue is the worse possible color to splash for goblins. If you don't believe me then playtest it and you will see based on the results.

I believe the only viable colors are either white/black/green. I'm going with the splashes of black and green b/c of the cards it allows me to play both in the main deck and the sideboard. I put up very good results with the deck when I decide to play it.

If you go back and read the posts that have been made in this thread about the different versions of goblins, you will see what has worked for people in the past.

Blue in goblins is just not good enough. They don't work well together. First of all, blue is more control, and in order to go aggro control, you need to use a few powerful creatures, not a swarm of them. Goblins needs lots of creatures, blue needs fewer creatures.

Also, goblins don't gain much from blue. They get the ability to beat combo easier, but counters still aren't a guaranteed win, especially with so few cards to use with force. Black splash with thoughtseizes helps with combo, and so do chalice from the board along with a fast clock. If your meta is full of combo, then don't play goblins. Other than an improved combo matchup, blue gives you nothing. Green and black help you deal with permanents via Grip and Weirding. While standstill sounds good in theory, Ringleaders and Matrons provide all the card advantage you really need, and adding standstill just weakens those. Blue is used for control/disruption, but goblins can do this with mana denial via waste and port along with thoughtseizes/weirdings/swords. Goblins need a way to deal with troublesome permanents. Green, black and/or white all give goblins what they need. Blue doesn't really.

If in future sets, some blue/hybrid goblin that helps the two work together, then maybe, but as it stands, there is no reason to use blue with goblins. The other splashes are better. Red thresh is better. If you want a swarming control deck, merfolk or faeries would probably even work better. Blue splash goblins can't do anything better than any of those.

I had tried tirelessly to put blue into the deck, and it just doesn't work.

If you want disruption in the MD, just add cabal therapy, it isn't that bad, as it can affect most decks significantly, and you usually have extra gobbos to sac to it.


Anything further than 4 vial, and 3-4 other spells is bad for gobbos, as they just want to be able to retool immediately after being stopped, or just kill immediately... I do not see why this discussion keeps coming up, when it is clearly obvious:

Goblins is an agro deck, it looses to combo, but uses its' resilience to combat anything that would try to stop its' game plan, through redundancy, and CA.

That's what keeps irking me. Why does it HAVE to lose to combo? Is there NOTHING that could be done? I don't know, I hate playing decks where I have to say "well, just hope I don't see it...".

If not, fine, but I hate that...

Also, I was wondering about my list (it's a straight-up copy of I think NickRit's), but I was wondering about my removal "suite". I'm taking it with me to GenCon, and was wondering if you guys would do anything different.

List:

4x Lackey
4x Warchief
4x Matron
4x Piledriver
4x Ringleader
4x Fanatic
2x Incinerator
3x Earwig Squad
1x Wort
1x Sharpshooter/SGC (which? I'm guessing u will say SGC...)
1x Tinkerer

4x Vial
1x Wierding

5x Mountain
4x Foothills
4x Mire
4x Wastes
3x Badlands
2x Taiga

SB:
2x EE
3x Grip
3x Therapy
3x Pyrokinesis
4x CotV

Wondering about the numbers of Incinerator and Wierdings, curious about what/when Tarfire is ever used (If ever), and whether or not I should include P-blasts/REB's in the SB over anything.

Appreciate all your input.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I would appreciate it, if you could think about the main goals of goblins and what cards would be best in order to achieve that goal. If you think about it, blue is the worse possible color to splash for goblins. If you don't believe me then playtest it and you will see based on the results.

I believe the only viable colors are either white/black/green. I'm going with the splashes of black and green b/c of the cards it allows me to play both in the main deck and the sideboard. I put up very good results with the deck when I decide to play it.

If you go back and read the posts that have been made in this thread about the different versions of goblins, you will see what has worked for people in the past.

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Really? Maybe if you tried it. I have been trying it and the ability to back up goblin lackey is amazing. It has been winning games

Also, you gain land hate with wasteland and stifle. Have you even tried it?

Don't get me started with how good lackey or ether vile is when back by standstill. then you standstill into seige gang commandeer backed by daze and force of will!! "Itz the nutz!"

Posting int he DtB threads means that you should make an effort to correct both your spelling and grammar. Please do so.
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Originally Posted by Bad Magic 101

really? maybe if you tried it. i have been trying it and the ability to back up goblin lackey is amazing. It has been wining games

also, you gain land hate with wasteland and stifle. have you even tried it?

Dont get me started with how good lackey or ether vile is when back by standstill. then you standstill into seige gang commandeer backed by daze and force of will!! Itz the nutz!

Posting int he DtB threads means that you should make an effort to correct both your spelling and grammar. Please do so.
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If only life was perfect, huh? Goblins is aggro and playing Standstill is just counterproductive. Sure, you may get the perfect hand once in a while with Vial, Lackey, Standstill, Gang, Lands but those wont happen often. You will get shit hands and goblins will suck because you took away the only thing they had going for them, the tribal aspect and being all out aggro.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

If only life was perfect, huh? Goblins is aggro and playing Standstill is just counterproductive. Sure, you may get the perfect hand once in a while with Vial, Lackey, Standstill, Gang, Lands but those wont happen often. You will get shit hands and goblins will suck because you took away the only thing they had going for them, the tribal aspect and being all out aggro.

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Maybe some of the time but you get to draw 3 cards. That is 5% of the deck.

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

I don't know, I hate playing decks where I have to say "well, just hope I don't see it...".

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Then play UWx Landstill. I think that's probably the most all around solid if unspectacular deck in the metagame right now, with no gaping vulnerabilities that I can immediately think of.

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Originally Posted by Illissius

Then play UWx Landstill. I think that's probably the most all around solid if unspectacular deck in the metagame right now, with no gaping vulnerabilities that I can immediately think of.

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No, this is the Goblins post. If he wanted to play Landstill he would, or he could try my Gobos build!

So, if the metagame warants it, could a SB for a Rbg list look like this:

Sideboard: 15
Cabal Therapy x3
Thoughtseize x4
Mad Auntie x3 or 2
Krosan Grip x2 or 3
Engineered Explosives x3

and be able to fight through hate and combo? I don't think that discard this heavy has been tried before, and with discard and EE the combo MU (which would include Ichorid, which doesn't like early Thoughtseize or EE, which, in addition to Fanatic should be enough to cinch up that match) should be much easier, and with EE, Grips, and Aunties in the deck, hate should be easy to anwser. Actually, is there anything that SB doesn't handle? Are there any holes in it?

I don't think Auntie is a good card to sideboard. It's terrible as an answer to Plague. It does nothing against two Plagues, and is nullified by any of the removal people are bringing and keeping in against you anyways. When Swords to Plowshares counters your answer to Plague, you're not in good shape. (Is Plague still such an overriding concern, anyways? I've seen much less of it around these days, corresponding with Goblins' fall from dominance. Grip should still be worth running because of Humility, Shackles, the Plagues which are still around, and suchlike, though.)

I also don't think 7-8 discard spells in the board are going to be "enough" against today's combo decks -- game one is still close to an autoloss, so if you want a good chance of winning the match, your post-sideboard percentages need to be significantly over 50%, and I don't think a single piece of discard, which is what you're most often going to draw, is going to accomplish that. Far as I know one of the only effects which stands a good chance of stopping a combo deck single handedly by itself is Orim's Chant. You could go for something like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
4 Chalice of the Void / Cabal Therapy / Abeyance / ?

Leyline is also very good against all the Loam decks these days; Fanatic isn't going to do much against those. Not sure what the other piece of disruption should be -- two mana is a lot more mana to keep open than one, so Abeyance isn't a shoo in.

EDIT -- I completely forgot about Earwig Squad. That could be helpful, if you live until turn three.

This is horrible, Blue is not good in gobling, especially with brainstorms and standstills. It doesn't create tempo, it ruins it! Do you honestly think Gobs doesn't have a good enough tempo already? It's already the fastest creeature-based deck in legacy, which is WHY WE PLAY IT! Now, I understand that you want more disruption for combo, but look at my build on the last page: 4 thoughtseizes and 4 warren weirding mainboard. I've beaten TES on game one about 35% of the time because of a first turn thoughtseize, and I actually believe I have the advantage in games 2-3, with 4 chalice and an earwig squad coming in. Right now, in all my playtesting (and yes I've tested UR Gobs!) B/r/g Goblins is the best build. And as for the person asking abour weirding and tarfire, I run 4 weriding, 1 tarfire, and 1 incinerator. Weirding just wins in legacy.

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Originally Posted by Brizentine Empire

This is horrible, Blue is not good in gobling, especially with brainstorms and standstills. It doesn't create tempo, it ruins it! Do you honestly think Gobs doesn't have a good enough tempo already? It's already the fastest creeature-based deck in legacy, which is WHY WE PLAY IT! Now, I understand that you want more disruption for combo, but look at my build on the last page: 4 thoughtseizes and 4 warren weirding mainboard. I've beaten TES on game one about 35% of the time because of a first turn thoughtseize, and I actually believe I have the advantage in games 2-3, with 4 chalice and an earwig squad coming in. Right now, in all my playtesting (and yes I've tested UR Gobs!) B/r/g Goblins is the best build. And as for the person asking abour weirding and tarfire, I run 4 weriding, 1 tarfire, and 1 incinerator. Weirding just wins in legacy.

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For the record mono-green stompy is the fastest beatdown becuase of Berserk.

The ability to back your plays up with Daze and Force of will is amazing. The card draw of Brainstrom and Standstill is amazing. So, we loose a tiny but of "tenpo" to back up are plan and beat the combos? I'll take it!

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Originally Posted by raharu

So, if the metagame warants it, could a SB for a Rbg list look like this:

Sideboard: 15
Cabal Therapy x3
Thoughtseize x4
Mad Auntie x3 or 2
Krosan Grip x2 or 3
Engineered Explosives x3

and be able to fight through hate and combo? I don't think that discard this heavy has been tried before, and with discard and EE the combo MU (which would include Ichorid, which doesn't like early Thoughtseize or EE, which, in addition to Fanatic should be enough to cinch up that match) should be much easier, and with EE, Grips, and Aunties in the deck, hate should be easy to anwser. Actually, is there anything that SB doesn't handle? Are there any holes in it?

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Tranquil Domain is a much, much better answer to Plague than Auntie (Im assuming that's what Auntie is for), and hits multiples like a champ.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Tranquil Domain is a much, much better answer to Plague than Auntie (Im assuming that's what Auntie is for), and hits multiples like a champ.

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And it really pisses off Enchantress (the Battletoadz player and the deck).

Cabal Therapy x4
Chalice of the Void x4
Krosan Grip x3
Tranquil Domain x3
Earwig Squad x1 (assuming more are in the MD)

Personally I'd love to see some Extirpates in the Side, but that's just my obsession with Exitrpate showing up again. Are there too many anti-artifact spells in the side (I think there are, but I would think it's best to have more anti-hate than they have hate)? If so, what's the right balance? To the players running 4x Warren Wierding in the MD: how does the Agro Loam match look? Do you run Worts?

With four warren weirding, I run 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie for utility. Sometimes a Warren Weirding-Wort lock is possible.
As for the Agro-Loam Match-up, I actually played it in a tournament last Friday, and lost. Warren weirding was very effective, as it can take down their outrageously big Terravore or Crusher. I won game one with a weirding followed by a typical goblin over-run, but game two and three he boarded in pyroclasm which really evened it out. Game 2 he pyroclasmed, followed by a terravore and a devastating dream, ouch. Game 3 I kept a suspect hand and drew into too many lands without a ringleader or matron, just drew 3 warchiefs. Overall, I'd say that weirdings are good in the match-up, but I lost, so I guess the match-up is still shaky in my testing.