[Deck] Belcher

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Its not just Dreturns/Reforge, War Strike, IT... the Wishboard is rarely used effectively for anything other than EtW. This is in part because you can't consistently expect to have a business spell in hand when you only play 11 to begin with. Thats why I keep pushing people to try the wishless lists. I really do think BW is on its way out. Until you can find a mana source with it and just run EtW/(sorcery ritual) in the board to take up a mere 2 slots, I don't think I would ever play BW. Its just EtW + 1R and its counterable vs. going up to 4 EtW copies maindeck and playing other business spells instead like Reforge the Soul, Spoils of the Vault. Hell I'd rather play Spoils of the Vault over BW if I can find 1 of 4 copies of EtW with it. You avg. 1 copy of EtW every 15 cards; I can't remember the last time Spoils killed me in testing.

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My problem with the wishless build is that you reduce the amount of cards you can go off with which in turn reduces the likelihood of going off with your opening 7. I know that the draw cards fix some of that but I'd never be comfortable keeping a 7 without a win condition. I agree that Burning Wish is almost never used except for Empty the Warrens but I still feeFl having 7 copies of EtW is better than 4. And the added bonus of being able to wish for cards that destroy hate isn't completely irrelevant. Also I'm not sure how I feel about Spoils of the Vault. It seems risky, and although you can't really recall a time where you've killed yourself off of it doesn't mean it can't happen or won't happen. Also splashing black is awkward in this deck. Red and green are pretty necessary and black adds another land because I wouldn't want to count solely on Lotus Petal and Manamorphose to create black mana. I'm not saying wishless is a bad idea. I'm sure it works fine for whoever uses it but I just prefer th build with BW. Neither one has better game against blue decks IMO which is really our only weakness

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Originally Posted by zmattk

I'm not saying wishless is a bad idea. I'm sure it works fine for whoever uses it but I just prefer th build with BW. Neither one has better game against blue decks IMO which is really our only weakness

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I think Vacrix's point is that the Wish-less build should have a better game against blue decks, because you can dedicate 15 sideboard cards to the matchup (e.g., bringing in Carpet of Flowers, Xantid Swarms, Autumn Veils, and Pyroblasts/REBs to play a slower, grinding game and run out the counters).

Reforge the Souls is a perfectly good business spell. You just need to run slightly more business that way it doesn't brick on you. I've had a lot of luck goldfishing 4 Reforge, 4 Belcher, 4 EtW, 1 PiF but its not an optimized list just yet because I spend most of my time testing other decks.

In terms of a black splash, you can run Streeth Wraith to facilitate Chrome Mox --> Street Wraith. Don't know if its enough though. I haven't tried playing Spoils in a while now. Spoils is also much better than BW if you can cast it with another business spell as it can find LED to activate Charbelcher.


Also, 7 EtW vs. 4 EtW has multiple facets. It means 3 uncounterable EtW's and 4 counterable EtW's. Also, it becomes not only counterable but Snareable EtW. None of your business is Snareable if you forgo Burning Wish. Then there is also 7 EtW vs. having a post-board plan. At least I think the wishboard should shrink considerably. Perhaps..

SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
2 Reforge the Soul

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Defense Grid
1 Taiga

Post-board you board in everything but Empty the Warrens. Then you have an actual board plan. Defense Grid has been awesome in my PSI testing. I can imagine it would be good in Belcher as well. Defense Grid and Autumn's Veil are also particularly good at supporting Reforge the Soul as a business spell. Having to hit 3 mana just to counter something means Carpet is going to turn on and then you can start grinding. With +3 business spells post-board and +6 protection spells, Carpet becomes pretty strong. Thats 14 business and 6 protection spells for a grand total of 20 must counter spells vs. 11, 3 of which are not counterable.

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Originally Posted by zmattk

I found myself almost never using Infernal Tutor or Goblin War Strike.

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I actually liked Goblin War Strike. It allows smaller EtW counts to beat a Mystic, EE, or a Terminus setup. Admittedly I've only played 7 rounds with the deck, but I used it twice in that time span (once to race a sweeper, other to race a potential Matron->Warchief->Sharpshooter).

That said, I can't speak for Infernal Tutor. Honestly, getting to the 11 necessary to BW->IT->Belch seems unrealistic

First off even with the wishless list you cannot run 15 anti blue cards. Taking that many cards out for every blue deck dilutes your deck way too much and you lose consistency.

Also I'd personally rather have 4 counterable EtW than no wincons in my hand. Isn't the point of this deck to go off and assume your opponent kept a loose hand game 1 and then board in your anti hate games 2 and 3. I just feel this deck doesn't mulligan well and searching for a EtW is very risky.

I've done testing with Reforge as well. If your opponent lets it resolve, they most likely don't have the counterspell for it, and drawing 7 new cards will more than likely give them a way to fight us. Just look at what Griselbrand can do with a draw 7. And even if they don't draw counters there's still the chance you fizzle. I guess that's why a number of Past in Flames would be necessary but that still cuts away from cards we might want in the MD.

I know Street Wraith could work for imprint but I have a hard time casting Tinder Wall at times and we have even more green cards than we would black. Not to mention we would probably need Bayou and that would weaken our Belchers.

Defense Grid is a card I've always liked but I fear it might be too difficult to cast. I would never want to ritual into it because the speed you lose from that might be enough to allow your opponent to pay for it. And I'm not sure how reliably we can actually cast it.

@Ari Lax
I don't hate Goblin War Strike. It has worked wonders when you actually get to cast it. I just haven't run into many situations where I could do that. I never really find myself with an extra Burning Wish and 3 extra mana in hand unless I get really lucky with top decks. I feel it's just more of a cute card than something we can rely on. It's definitely something I consider in my board though. If I wasn't using Reanimate or Bribery I would include Goblin War Strike over Infernal Tutor though. I just feel like the meta is in a place where I can use both right now and drop the other 2 for the time being.

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Originally Posted by zmattk

@Ari Lax
I don't hate Goblin War Strike. It has worked wonders when you actually get to cast it. I just haven't run into many situations where I could do that. I never really find myself with an extra Burning Wish and 3 extra mana in hand unless I get really lucky with top decks. I feel it's just more of a cute card than something we can rely on. It's definitely something I consider in my board though. If I wasn't using Reanimate or Bribery I would include Goblin War Strike over Infernal Tutor though. I just feel like the meta is in a place where I can use both right now and drop the other 2 for the time being.

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Reasonable. I just don't like Reanimate in this deck. It's awesome in TES where you can trap them with a Silence when they dump Grisel, but I'm wary of it being reasonable in Belcher. You have to be on the draw against a Careful Study to really want it (or on the play with a Tinder Wall ship hand where they then have Study).

Bribery seems sweet though. Sometimes a Wish -> Empty isn't enough, gotta go bigger.

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Originally Posted by zmattk

First off even with the wishless list you cannot run 15 anti blue cards. Taking that many cards out for every blue deck dilutes your deck way too much and you lose consistency.

Defense Grid is a card I've always liked but I fear it might be too difficult to cast. I would never want to ritual into it because the speed you lose from that might be enough to allow your opponent to pay for it. And I'm not sure how reliably we can actually cast it.

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I don't know about 15 necessarily. This deck doesn't have the flexibility of SI post-board because red's rituals are much weaker and much easier to disrupt. However, if you substitute
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Seething Song

Thats 12 cards right there. Then you have a 3 card wish board. You don't want cyclers post-board, even as good as Probe is, because that makes your opening hand and mulligans much harder to judge, which is rather important for post-board consistency.

For those cards, I'm going to test a board of:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Defense Grid
2 Taiga

Without perpetual resources, any sort of post-board plan Belcher plays is going to ride mostly on luck. 7 out of 11 win conditions are counterable and Flusterstorm post-board shuts down EtW hard. Xantid Swarm is frankly outdated tech and people expect it.

Taiga's help you grind and turn a normally dead Land Grant into a perpetual resource. Having post-board lands in a deck with Belcher means nothing if you don't land it protected within the first few turns. Rather, this approach opts out of the 'put your balls on the table and hope your opponent didn't bring a hammer' approach Belcher usually takes against blue. Carpets also help you grind and the Taigas help you play them more consistently. Defense Grid, if it lands, gives the opponent a choice: play into Carpet of Flowers and have protection, or let Belcher play its shit uninhibited without Carpet as a perpetual resource. Choice A is usually preferred. Autumn's Veil also plays well with a resolved Carpet because they cannot let it resolve unless you've shown them your hand with Land Grant.

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Originally Posted by zmattk

Also I'd personally rather have 4 counterable EtW than no wincons in my hand. Isn't the point of this deck to go off and assume your opponent kept a loose hand game 1 and then board in your anti hate games 2 and 3. I just feel this deck doesn't mulligan well and searching for a EtW is very risky.

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Yes that is the point of this deck. The question we ought to ask though is should it be the point? Boarding in anti-hate in games 2 and 3 doesn't really mean much. You get Swarm, Pyroblast, Veil, etc. They get Flusterstorm. That even turns off EtW. This deck has to adapt. BW is the problem but mostly because the deck often plays a huge wishboard. This deck prepares for the matchups it already is supposed to win with the wishboard more than it does its worst matchup; U.dec

So if you don't want to take out BW, at least experiment with a micro-wishboard for the things you really want to see.

I wouldn't doubt the power of Xantid Swarm. It may seem outdated and expected but I think people forget it cannot be spell pierced. I've had people keep hands of double pierce and cringe when I open with first turn Swarm. And I think people would rather keep a hand with Spell Pierce against us rather than a hand with Bolts or StP. If you play this deck locally a lot I'd probably do a rotation between the two or even a split at times just to keep people honest, but at larger events I'd always choose Swarm.

My one problem with your suggested board of the cantrips for 12-15 anti blue cards in the wishless version is that you cut BW exclusively for the cantrips. With only 8 cards that win and no way to find them faster, I can see it being even worse at mulliganning.

That being said I do plan on testing multiple versions of this deck. Keep us updated with your sb in wishless and I can tweek my sb as well. I agree this deck needs to adapt but the very nature of its existence makes it difficult to. Any major changes like I've seen suggested at times would probably be better off served with people playing a different deck. I personally play this deck for its turn 1 consistency, if I wanted a more grindy win I'd just play TES. Because the longer we stall the game digging for and playing protection, the more we open ourselves to other vulnerabilities like hatebears.

Ari, I agree on the Reanimate. It does seem a bit narrow. I'll keep swapping it with War Strike and see which one is more useful.

Been playing around with Belcher for a little while now. And I think the Xantid Swarm is better than given credit for. If for no other reason that Stifle is on the rise and Autumn's Veil does nothing to stop it. Stifle makes a mockery of both Belcher and EtW. That and what's old is new again, since typical spot removal is horrible in Belcher (except when you feel like durdling and hard cast your Spirit Guide for lulz) it gets boarded out, and Xantid Swarm does better. As already mentioned, it can't be Spell Pierced either.

Anyone else have an opinion on the better sideboard card of either Blood Moon vs. Defense Grid? Pro's, Con's. I think Blood Moon, but it has negative synergy with Carpet... Blood Moon has a greater blow-out potential than Defense Grid though...

Right now I play a SB of:
4 Xantid Swarm - JDG - G
4 Carpet of Flowers - URS - G
2 Blood Moon - 9th - 2R
3 Pyroblast - ICE - R
2 Mirri's Guile - TMP - G

Swap out Probe, Seething Song, Manamorphose, Goblin Bushwhacker, and a LG/Pyretic or two pending on the match-up.

Cheers,
Can they just ban blue already?

ahg113:

Mind if I ask what Mirri's Guile is doing when there are 4 shufflers in the deck?

No prob. Jace is the Devil, and Mirri's Guile helps get around fateseal.

If I draw a LG, I can chose not to use it or not with a Guile in play, not that a shuffle effect is bad at all. LGs are typically great on the first turn or so for the land, but then become throw away storm bosters or imprint for Chrome Mox. Inherent disadvantage of giving your opponent perfect info too

More so going for the Belcher win, rather than EtW win, there's many times when a Belcher is castable, but not usable. The Guile will give me 3 chances to find an LED or likewise, instead of that smug Jace player letting me keep a seething song, or prevent me from miracling into a RtS.

If I had more Guile, I might play more, not sure. In SB games, the Carpet of Flowers has been uber clutch, winning a game by stock piling green so I could burn through stupid cards in my hand then play EtW.

Cheers,
or... tldr - folks use fetches with Top, Ponder, Brainstorm... what's so different with LG and Guile?

Glad someone picked up on the alternative sideboard plans. I mean, you can also play a micro-wish board instead if you still want to play BW, but it really needs to start getting smaller so that we can improve our worst matchup.


Bloodmoon and Carpet I've concluded is a bit de synergistic. I much prefer Defense Grid. Ritual, Defense Grid, Pyroblast is an awesome turn 1 play. Blood Moon requires you to tick up to 4 where you could just as easily play EtW; they probably don't want you to get there and will counter the ritual that lets you tick up to 4, especially if you played a bunch of artifact IMS's to have a 4+ storm count pre-EtW.

Xantid Swarm will randomly win you games, but its more random than anything else. I've been consistently losing hands with Xantid Swarm against good players.

Also, I really do like the idea of Noxious Revival. End of turn, put Reforge the Soul back on top.. really strong play. It also gets back Charbelchers and Carpets which help in the long game, and it has some random applications against Reanimator.

@ Vacrix

Where do you place Noxious Revival? It seems a bit narrow to only use as a RtS enabler, or to fight Reanimator (not big in my neck of the woods.)

And I agree about Defense Grid. Blood Moon is sexier, Defense Grid is more reliable. Being a mana cheaper (hypothetical turn faster) is also pretty clutch.

Cheers,
anyone here from around Philly?

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Originally Posted by ahg113

No prob. Jace is the Devil, and Mirri's Guile helps get around fateseal.

If I draw a LG, I can chose not to use it or not with a Guile in play, not that a shuffle effect is bad at all. LGs are typically great on the first turn or so for the land, but then become throw away storm bosters or imprint for Chrome Mox. Inherent disadvantage of giving your opponent perfect info too

More so going for the Belcher win, rather than EtW win, there's many times when a Belcher is castable, but not usable. The Guile will give me 3 chances to find an LED or likewise, instead of that smug Jace player letting me keep a seething song, or prevent me from miracling into a RtS.

If I had more Guile, I might play more, not sure. In SB games, the Carpet of Flowers has been uber clutch, winning a game by stock piling green so I could burn through stupid cards in my hand then play EtW.

Cheers,
or... tldr - folks use fetches with Top, Ponder, Brainstorm... what's so different with LG and Guile?

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Well, Guile actually puts you down a card. If it was any other card in your deck, odds are you could just pay for that Belcher or do anything with it. Also, almost every Brainstorm/Top deck has min 8 shufflers that do things. The cards aren't good without them.

Also, wait what? You care about a permanent that costs four to cast and isn't a Leyline?

I thought playing for the long game with Belcher meant winning turn 1 on the draw.

I don't like scooping, hence I'll have a bunch of turns against control because they don't do anything.
The goal is to win right away, but that isn't always the reality. If that's the case, I like improving my odds with a relevant sideboard instead of a wish target sideboard.

I admit, with the new SB, the deck is 1/2 cold to a STIP Leyline of Sanctity or fully cold vs resolved Solitary Confinement.

Cheers,
the long game is win by turn three (two swings with oodles of Goblin tokens)

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Originally Posted by ahg113

I don't like scooping, hence I'll have a bunch of turns against control because they don't do anything.
The goal is to win right away, but that isn't always the reality. If that's the case, I like improving my odds with a relevant sideboard instead of a wish target sideboard.

I admit, with the new SB, the deck is 1/2 cold to a STIP Leyline of Sanctity or fully cold vs resolved Solitary Confinement.

Cheers,
the long game is win by turn three (two swings with oodles of Goblin tokens)

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I like improving my odds by not drawing a card that does stone cold nothing to help me combo on turn one.

Hello, players

I would like your help to build a consistent sideboard for my Belcher.

I usually play against:

Nic Fit
Maverick (GW / GWR)
U / R Delver
Solitaire (Enchantress)
Affinity
Dredge
Dragon Stompy

My current deck list:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Street Wraith

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Taiga

sideboard
??

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Originally Posted by AriLax

I like improving my odds by not drawing a card that does stone cold nothing to help me combo on turn one.

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It's obvious a matter of preference. U.dec plays FoW, which is pretty awesome at making Belcher decks sad on turn one. Maybe moving the target from turn one is pretty decent; or, improving our odds against counter spells is mad decent. I'm not sure of any U.dec that will play Belcher, then decide what they need less of are counter spells.

Even though our match-up vs. FoW isn't great, the typical U.dec isn't going to win by turn 7 (randomly picked), RUG has a clock. If we can play around the counter, or a way to help our card selection after an initial salvo- I'm all in favor of it.

Cheers,
doesn't like to scoop

You need the following:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 draw spell, perhaps Reforge the Soul or Diminishing Returns

You can supplement by:
1 Reverent Silence (good against rows of enchantments)
more Shattering Sprees (good against artifact hate)
3-4 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast (against blue mages)
3-4 Xantid Swarm (against blue mages)
3-4 Carpet of Flowers (again against blue mages)

Also interesting:
1 Cave-In (to fight rows of beasts)
1 Goblin War Strike (finisher after Empty the Warrens token fail to get there)

Since you mention that your meta isn't that full of blue decks, I would suggest the following:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Cave-In
1 Reverent Silence
1 Hull Breach
4 Shattering Spree (side 3 in, keep the 4th side as Wish target)
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Red Elemental Blast (still need stuff against blue)

If there REALLY isn't any blue around, swap 3-4 anti-blue cards for 3-4 Serum Powder, and side those in against aggrodecks in favor of Gitaxian Probes. Those will help mulling for winner hands.

BTW I suggest you don't play Street Wraiths main deck. Having 8 cantrips makes mulligan choices harder. You can just play Pyretic Rituals instead. Extra mana always comes in handy. :)