Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
How many probes do you run?
Quote:
1) If you're intending to peek for FoW/Wastelands to decide which DD piles you're making, you need to play Probe before building a pile because building a pile with Probe then storming up to win or Emrakul'ing doesn't really solve the decision tree on which piles to make. So either a list is playing enough Probes to go off before Doomsday or they are simply using Probe as a +1 draw, +1 storm count for 2 life (this is the strongest reason to play Probe, i.e. it's flexible in DD piles where you need an extra draw+Storm and could afford 2 life.
2) This probably won't happen too much but sometimes you will DD down to 1 life, and Probe becomes a dead card in your hand. This is not likely if you're just playing 1 Probe for DD piles, but will be more likely if people are experimenting lists with more Probes for the peek effect.
I run 4 currently and only 3 Top, which might be wrong but we'll see.
As for the issues with Probe, against non-folk decks, you generally have a bit more time, so Probe becomes an EoT peek and you set up with something else. As for the life thing, hasn't been an issue yet because while DDay does cut your life in half, in my opinion Probe also helps speed the deck up.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Eh, I would never ever go below 4 SDT in this deck ever. I'm simply convinced it is the best card in the deck, the card you always want to play turn 1 if it's in hand usually. And people, probe can draw a card for a single blue mana. You aren't required to pay the 2 life but with the 2 life it just makes your pile cost less. And since it does speed the deck up the lifeloss isn't the most relevant thing all the time because you can DD from 16 and be very safe usually barring bolt bolt you or bolt fireblast but that has always been solved by the IGG loop plan.
Also, probe is a sorcery. Can't EoT peek with it unfortunately. But you can always mainphase it for 2 life I guess so it doesn't mess with math. Overall though probe seems to have merit since it ups the storm count for 0 mana and is bonkers with led then again what isn't bonkers with LED in storm combo.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
FAIL! I got called into work tonight so I could not provide anyone with a winning or losing tournament report. I would have written one regardless since we need to get a little more discussion going about DD. Here is the list I have been testing out, and thus far .... it has been a BEAST:
4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
2x Infernal Tutor
3x Doomsday
4x Thoughtseize
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x IGG
1x Meditate
1x Tendrils
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalded Tarn
1x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x City of Brass
SB
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Deathmark
2x EtW
2x Rebuild
1x Meltdown
1x Shattering Spree
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Wipe Away
While not totally different than some of my other lists, I have totally abandoned Emrakul since ... he takes up 2 slots and is not always useful. With the utility of Burning Wish I have rarely lost to artifact and creature hate. Emrakul is ... awesome and may come back into the board, but so far he has not been necessary.
Second, Probe is just bonkers. I posted earlier in the DD Piles thread about what you can do when its in hand, the card even makes Emrakul stacks better. When you have a Top in play and Probe in hand, you can win with just 3 storm and U or B floating ... its nuts. I still feel Burning Wish is vital to keep the threat density high, its the next best thing to Mystical Tutor in combo and as often as I try, I usually take most ANT lists apart after 20-30 mins due to problems of being stranded. I am also not a fan of UBw DD lists since Revokers see frequent play in my meta and those lists have quite a few problems when Top and/or LED gets shut down. They can certainly answer it, but when your opponent has a decent clock ... they can't answer with as much consistency as I would like.
The board is pretty much the same, except for the EtW plan against Stoneforge, Landstill, U/W bullshit counterspell.assfuck.deck. I also board in my bounce and Pact to kill their shit, which has been quite effective so far. I like it a lot better than Tendrils. An EtW for 6 can go a long way, especially when you are filtering draws w Top, I am considering adding a 4th.
The reason I post the SB this way is because those 5 wish targets will NEVER be boarded in. Spree and Meltdown will, and it wil vary based on what matchup I am playing. Most of the time Spree will be better but against something like Affinity or Painter, Meltdown would be better boarded in. The rest is self explanatory. This list has been ridiculously consistent, and upping the Duress count to 7 feels like exactly what the deck needed. I am not sure if this configuration without Emrakul and Needle is BETTER or not, but it feels a LOT more consistent and streamlined.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pulp_Fiction
FAIL! I got called into work tonight so I could not provide anyone with a winning or losing tournament report. I would have written one regardless since we need to get a little more discussion going about DD. Here is the list I have been testing out, and thus far .... it has been a BEAST:
4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
2x Infernal Tutor
3x Doomsday
4x Thoughtseize
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x IGG
1x Meditate
1x Tendrils
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalded Tarn
1x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x City of Brass
SB
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Deathmark
2x EtW
2x Rebuild
1x Meltdown
1x Shattering Spree
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Wipe Away
While not totally different than some of my other lists, I have totally abandoned Emrakul since ... he takes up 2 slots and is not always useful. With the utility of Burning Wish I have rarely lost to artifact and creature hate. Emrakul is ... awesome and may come back into the board, but so far he has not been necessary.
Second, Probe is just bonkers. I posted earlier in the DD Piles thread about what you can do when its in hand, the card even makes Emrakul stacks better. When you have a Top in play and Probe in hand, you can win with just 3 storm and U or B floating ... its nuts. I still feel Burning Wish is vital to keep the threat density high, its the next best thing to Mystical Tutor in combo and as often as I try, I usually take most ANT lists apart after 20-30 mins due to problems of being stranded. I am also not a fan of UBw DD lists since Revokers see frequent play in my meta and those lists have quite a few problems when Top and/or LED gets shut down. They can certainly answer it, but when your opponent has a decent clock ... they can't answer with as much consistency as I would like.
The board is pretty much the same, except for the EtW plan against Stoneforge, Landstill, U/W bullshit counterspell.assfuck.deck. I also board in my bounce and Pact to kill their shit, which has been quite effective so far. I like it a lot better than Tendrils. An EtW for 6 can go a long way, especially when you are filtering draws w Top, I am considering adding a 4th.
The reason I post the SB this way is because those 5 wish targets will NEVER be boarded in. Spree and Meltdown will, and it wil vary based on what matchup I am playing. Most of the time Spree will be better but against something like Affinity or Painter, Meltdown would be better boarded in. The rest is self explanatory. This list has been ridiculously consistent, and upping the Duress count to 7 feels like exactly what the deck needed. I am not sure if this configuration without Emrakul and Needle is BETTER or not, but it feels a LOT more consistent and streamlined.
I really like your list (probably because it resembles the current iteration of TES). I have a question about the maindeck IGG though. Have you considered, like Bryant Cook with TES, to swap that IGG with ETW making your maindeck stronger against Blue? Since you don't play White for Chant, it seems IGG in the main vs blue is a disaster waiting to happen where as ETW without protection seems fine. What do you think about that? Do you board in EtW a lot? With four Burning Wishes, it seems that IGG in the board is fine as a wish target.
Also, EtW against Stoneblade, is that really the correct play? Bryant's last report seemed to show that batter skull crushes goblin tokens. Could you explain how EtW can be strong against SFM?
I'm very interested in your list, since I'd like to make DDFT. I've played TES for about two years, but I'm really interested in the power of Doomsday, so I thought I'd give it a try.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
I would never cut IGG, though I can see the argument for why some people would. I must be fortunate, because I've lost more games from cutting IGG out of my maindeck against blue decks than I've lost because IGG is supposed to be garbage against opponents with relevant spells that you can IGG back to their hand.
First off, IGG makes the deck completely unfair against any aggro opponent you may run into. It enables the IGG Loop against opponents without disruption, and it enables the standard two mana pass-the-turn piles, allowing you to run out a quick Doomsday on turn one or two. And even if your opponent is playing Blue, sometimes they'll tap out and be unable to play all the spells you returned to them, or you'll have so much extra mana and a discard spell to IGG back and get your opponent's counters, or they'll just have nothing--and then you win. It apparently doesn't happen all that often for most people, but it happens, and it offers a versatility to this deck that in my opinion overshadows the times where it's a dead draw.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Sorry, for some reason I feel compelled to post on this Magic site after I have been barhopping w my buddies .. no idea why, but (my tolerance has grown) and I am not nearly as messed up as I usually am when I rant on this site.
I actually posted on the stormboards about IGG. It feels unnecessary but I think it is. IGG loop enable so many free wins against any aggro deck and, even if it isnt in the main, will be in the board. Because DD has serious problems w Burn, Guide + 3 damage cards and free 4 damage shit is really good against a deck whose main win condition requires the caster to cut its life in half. But really, if u never see Burn ... its a great card. Against control it is hit and miss. Excess mana + a discard spell in the yard is .... cool.
Also, and I feel this needs to be a new paragraph, I have won NUMEROUS games using turn 1 IGG as a Mindtwist. Playing out ur artifacts, then casting rituals into IGG and bringing back, cantrips and accel with LED(s) on the board ... is VERY powerful. Usually the opponent brings back: land, land, Goyf or something to that effect. But, to answer ur question fully, I don't think DD has enough all-in capabilities to make a maindeck IGG worthwhile. Cook's list (my least favoritve BTW) has +1 Acceleration spell and +4 Moxen compared to this list. It is a lot better at making tokens. Really between all the discard and bounce/kill I have not had serious problems with the Stoneforge bullshit. Given, this deck is not SUPER FAST by any means, but it can regularly crank out goblins tokens, not as many as TES, BUT it DOES have reliable answers to that god damn equipment.
Regarding IGG against blue ... board it out. Against most aggro decks I keep it in cause very few are running Trap in my meta. Most of the time I meet hate bears and Null Rods (which is the best combo hate might I add and Null Rod + Discard is even more of a beating). Against Merfolk, EtW is really good, and at worst buys u turns to setup and Probe checks if its clear and/or tells you how to setup or what u need. This list is really aimed at a SCG meta or random shit, Merfolk, and FuckMeInTheAssIHaveNoRelevantThoughts U/W bullshit.dec If you are in a serious control meta, IGG is not necessary, but, if u ever face aggro, it really needs to be there.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Namida
I would never cut IGG, though I can see the argument for why some people would. I must be fortunate, because I've lost more games from cutting IGG out of my maindeck against blue decks than I've lost because IGG is supposed to be garbage against opponents with relevant spells that you can IGG back to their hand.
First off, IGG makes the deck completely unfair against any aggro opponent you may run into. It enables the IGG Loop against opponents without disruption, and it enables the standard two mana pass-the-turn piles, allowing you to run out a quick Doomsday on turn one or two. And even if your opponent is playing Blue, sometimes they'll tap out and be unable to play all the spells you returned to them, or you'll have so much extra mana and a discard spell to IGG back and get your opponent's counters, or they'll just have nothing--and then you win. It apparently doesn't happen all that often for most people, but it happens, and it offers a versatility to this deck that in my opinion overshadows the times where it's a dead draw.
I didn't mean cut IGG from the 75, I meant cut it from the main (Burning Wish can get you IGG). But after reading some Doomsday piles, I realized why it is important to have IGG in the main. I didn't realize so many pass-the-turn-piles involved IGG. Regardless, it seems quite risky, assuming the opponent is playing blue, to Doomsday, pass the turn into an IGG-loop.
I am, however, unfamiliar with Doomsday piles, so I really can't say that there are no ways around countermagic after Doomsday.
Could someone please explain to me the relevance of IGG in the main besides of the pass-the-turn piles? I just think EtW for 12 Goblins first turn is much safer against blue than passing the turn after a Duress, oh no relevant counterspells, Doomsday, pass the turn and hope they don't draw FOW or misstep. (Sorry if that was confusing..)
I guess an argument against this is DDFT isn't as fast as TES and that EtW first turn is rather unlikely, but I'm really not sure how much slower DDFT is..
Thanks for the replies in advanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pulp_Fiction
Sorry, for some reason I feel compelled to post on this Magic site after I have been barhopping w my buddies .. no idea why, but (my tolerance has grown) and I am not nearly as messed up as I usually am when I rant on this site.
I actually posted on the stormboards about IGG. It feels unnecessary but I think it is. IGG loop enable so many free wins against any aggro deck and, even if it isnt in the main, will be in the board. Because DD has serious problems w Burn, Guide + 3 damage cards and free 4 damage shit is really good against a deck whose main win condition requires the caster to cut its life in half. But really, if u never see Burn ... its a great card. Against control it is hit and miss. Excess mana + a discard spell in the yard is .... cool.
Also, and I feel this needs to be a new paragraph, I have won NUMEROUS games using turn 1 IGG as a Mindtwist. Playing out ur artifacts, then casting rituals into IGG and bringing back, cantrips and accel with LED(s) on the board ... is VERY powerful. Usually the opponent brings back: land, land, Goyf or something to that effect. But, to answer ur question fully, I don't think DD has enough all-in capabilities to make a maindeck IGG worthwhile. Cook's list (my least favoritve BTW) has +1 Acceleration spell and +4 Moxen compared to this list. It is a lot better at making tokens. Really between all the discard and bounce/kill I have not had serious problems with the Stoneforge bullshit. Given, this deck is not SUPER FAST by any means, but it can regularly crank out goblins tokens, not as many as TES, BUT it DOES have reliable answers to that god damn equipment.
Regarding IGG against blue ... board it out. Against most aggro decks I keep it in cause very few are running Trap in my meta. Most of the time I meet hate bears and Null Rods (which is the best combo hate might I add and Null Rod + Discard is even more of a beating). Against Merfolk, EtW is really good, and at worst buys u turns to setup and Probe checks if its clear and/or tells you how to setup or what u need. This list is really aimed at a SCG meta or random shit, Merfolk, and FuckMeInTheAssIHaveNoRelevantThoughts U/W bullshit.dec If you are in a serious control meta, IGG is not necessary, but, if u ever face aggro, it really needs to be there.
Just to clarify, I am NOT advocating cutting IGG from the 75. I simply meant move it to the board. Sorry if I was unclear about this. Oh thanks, you answered a lot of my questions that I had a hunch about but wasn't sure. You don't like Cook's list? How come?
I'm on the stormboards, but I haven't checked there in awhile, since it doesn't seem to move as much as mtgthesource. Anyway, I think I get why you think IGG is necessary in the main. Burns does become a very difficult matchup if you are forced to Doomsday your way to victory. If you have Burning Wish though, can't you simply wish for IGG and kill them that way? I just feel that without ETW main, the blue matchup seems a lot harder than it needs to be. I guess with some skill, you can simply play around many of the countermagic in today's metagame.
You seem to like ETW, so I was just curious about your card choice...
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
I won't go into the history, cause that shit will take a long time and its a lot of "this is better" .. "no, this is better in this meta" .... and all that god damn shit has been said before. And here is the cliff notes version, when MT was legal DDFT was better but TES was easier to play. After the bannings, there is no dominant combo deck. TES has always been faster but DDFT more consistent. Take that for what u will. Because DD has (and IMOP) will always be the premier combo deck. Its just now, the deck requires an immense amount of playskill and time to master; something that most lazy motherfuckers who "hear combo is good now" will never take the time too learn.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pulp_Fiction
I won't go into the history, cause that shit will take a long time and its a lot of "this is better" .. "no, this is better in this meta" .... and all that god damn shit has been said before. And here is the cliff notes version, when MT was legal DDFT was better but TES was easier to play. After the bannings, there is no dominant combo deck. TES has always been faster but DDFT more consistent. Take that for what u will. Because DD has (and IMOP) will always be the premier combo deck. Its just now, the deck requires an immense amount of playskill and time to master; something that most lazy motherfuckers who "hear combo is good now" will never take the time too learn.
Oh thanks for that. I think I get what you mean. Yeah for this reason, I'm really interested in learning about the Doomsday piles. I don't think TES is that inconsistant, rather maybe DDFT is just a stable deck.
To elaborate though, I don't think TES is particularly simple to play, I think Doomsday is just a really difficult card to play and makes any deck in Legacy seem elementary.
So on with IGG in the side rather than the main though, you don't think that Burning Wish into IGG loop is viable against Burn decks? I think this way, you won't even have to Doomsday for an IGG loop, rather, you can simply play spells, find Burning Wish and then IGGy loop from there. WHat do you think about that?
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
The version of the deck I normally play is basically UB, so I made my comments without thinking about the sideboard. Even though this is my personal experience and from what I understand isn't the norm, I have found myself able to win with IGG against every deck that isn't Landstill, and I've lost games that I shouldn't have lost because I didn't have IGG in my deck.
Literally all the pass the turn piles use IGG. Pass the turn piles are risky as hell against everything that isn't an aggro deck and it's still horrible after turn two against aggro, but the pass the turn piles help make game one all but a technicality when you play against aggro decks. So basically, if you play against aggro, IGG is very good.
That being said, Empty the Warrens is "safer" against blue, and I won't deny it. As Pulp said, if you're playing against a lot more control than aggro, it isn't horrible to move it to the sideboard (If you play Burning Wish). However, this deck isn't TES. I say that to mean that this deck doesn't have enough red mana in it for me to tell you that I believe you could consistently get the RR to cast Empty the Warrens on the first two turns of the game, and to me going for ETW after that is too much time to be letting your opponent find answers to your Goblins.
Is there just something about Burning Wish and Ill-Gotten Gains that I don't understand? I've hated IGG in my sideboard because you need to have Wish + business spell to make an IGG-Loop work with Wish since your card gets exiled. In the mainboard it just makes an IGG-Loop cost two more mana (BW to IT to IGG).
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Namida
The version of the deck I normally play is basically UB, so I made my comments without thinking about the sideboard. Even though this is my personal experience and from what I understand isn't the norm, I have found myself able to win with IGG against every deck that isn't Landstill, and I've lost games that I shouldn't have lost because I didn't have IGG in my deck.
Literally all the pass the turn piles use IGG. Pass the turn piles are risky as hell against everything that isn't an aggro deck and it's still horrible after turn two against aggro, but the pass the turn piles help make game one all but a technicality when you play against aggro decks. So basically, if you play against aggro, IGG is very good.
That being said, Empty the Warrens is "safer" against blue, and I won't deny it. As Pulp said, if you're playing against a lot more control than aggro, it isn't horrible to move it to the sideboard (If you play Burning Wish). However, this deck isn't TES. I say that to mean that this deck doesn't have enough red mana in it for me to tell you that I believe you could consistently get the RR to cast Empty the Warrens on the first two turns of the game, and to me going for ETW after that is too much time to be letting your opponent find answers to your Goblins.
Is there just something about Burning Wish and Ill-Gotten Gains that I don't understand? I've hated IGG in my sideboard because you need to have Wish + business spell to make an IGG-Loop work with Wish since your card gets exiled. In the mainboard it just makes an IGG-Loop cost two more mana (BW to IT to IGG).
Hmm.. the Burning Wish scenario makes sense. I suffer from that problem when playing TES sometimes (lack of tutor in yard), forcing me to go another route (Diminishing Returns usually).
ETW is 3R by the way, so you don't need too much red, but I can see where you are coming from with the Wish + Tutor for IGG to work properly. Pass-the-turn piles seem quite important as well, after reading some reports and seeing how often people use them.
Well, maybe I"ll try Pulp_Fiction's list and see how it goes. I really don't like the UBw lists right now and the UBg lists just seem weird.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
I've been interested in Doomsday for a while, but the "primer" is a real turn off. The original lists are now illegal (Mystical Tutor banned) and there is no information at all on Doomsday piles or how to actually play the deck.
Can anyone point me to a better starting resource?
-Silent Requiem
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Hmm.. the Burning Wish scenario makes sense. I suffer from that problem when playing TES sometimes (lack of tutor in yard), forcing me to go another route (Diminishing Returns usually).
ETW is 3R by the way, so you don't need too much red, but I can see where you are coming from with the Wish + Tutor for IGG to work properly. Pass-the-turn piles seem quite important as well, after reading some reports and seeing how often people use them.
Well, maybe I"ll try Pulp_Fiction's list and see how it goes. I really don't like the UBw lists right now and the UBg lists just seem weird.
Yeah, this deck can't utilize Diminishing Returns too well because your easiest piles utilize Meditate and getting that exiled off of a D.Ret wouldn't be good.
My apologies--you were making a case for ETW over IGG in the main so you could naturally cast it from the hand. I was speaking about Burning Wish to get Empty the Warrens, and you basically need to have a Lotus Petal or a LED to make that happen if you want your Goblins to come down before your opponent can effectively deal with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silent Requiem
I've been interested in Doomsday for a while, but the "primer" is a real turn off. The original lists are now illegal (Mystical Tutor banned) and there is no information at all on Doomsday piles or how to actually play the deck.
Can anyone point me to a better starting resource?
-Silent Requiem
I know what you mean. I basically read this entire thread and the entire thread on the Storm Boards--and I still didn't know what I was doing. Emidln's signature has links to both the Storm Boards and a list of Doomsday Piles. The document is really helpful. A few pages back in this thread, someone explains the Pass the turn piles in detail, and there's discussion on sample hands.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silent Requiem
I've been interested in Doomsday for a while, but the "primer" is a real turn off. The original lists are now illegal (Mystical Tutor banned) and there is no information at all on Doomsday piles or how to actually play the deck.
Can anyone point me to a better starting resource?
-Silent Requiem
yeah you have to search doomsday pile .. there is actually quite a long thread about it somewhere..
I agree though, the first post is a turn off.. it should get updated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Namida
Yeah, this deck can't utilize Diminishing Returns too well because your easiest piles utilize Meditate and getting that exiled off of a D.Ret wouldn't be good.
My apologies--you were making a case for ETW over IGG in the main so you could naturally cast it from the hand. I was speaking about Burning Wish to get Empty the Warrens, and you basically need to have a Lotus Petal or a LED to make that happen if you want your Goblins to come down before your opponent can effectively deal with them.
I know what you mean. I basically read this entire thread and the entire thread on the Storm Boards--and I still didn't know what I was doing. Emidln's signature has links to both the Storm Boards and a list of Doomsday Piles. The document is really helpful. A few pages back in this thread, someone explains the Pass the turn piles in detail, and there's discussion on sample hands.
Oh, I get you.. that all makes sense now.. Thanks for that.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Personally, I think Doomsday is an overly complicated card that loses to the most random fringe cards. If I am playing a slow combo deck, I want to be playing Spiral Tide, Hive Mind, or Painter. If I am playing fast combo, I want to be playing TES, since that deck pushes brokenness to its utter limit in Legacy.
But to each their own.
TES is extremely hard to play, if you think otherwise, I will point out the fact that only a few Storm masters have done well with it (Pulp, emidln, Bryant, and myself). The occasional padawan does well, but never on a consistent basis. That being said, Doomsday has yet to show it's face on the SCG circuit. Just saying. Also, TES has Top 8'd 2 Grand Prix.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lorddotm
Personally, I think Doomsday is an overly complicated card that loses to the most random fringe cards.
A comment you made on the Storm Boards along the lines of "Good Luck Beating a Grindstone" will forever haunt me, when I found out exactly what you were talking about a few weeks ago at my first event with this deck.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lorddotm
Personally, I think Doomsday is an overly complicated card that loses to the most random fringe cards. If I am playing a slow combo deck, I want to be playing Spiral Tide, Hive Mind, or Painter. If I am playing fast combo, I want to be playing TES, since that deck pushes brokenness to its utter limit in Legacy.
But to each their own.
TES is extremely hard to play, if you think otherwise, I will point out the fact that only a few Storm masters have done well with it (Pulp, emidln, Bryant, and myself). The occasional padawan does well, but never on a consistent basis. That being said, Doomsday has yet to show it's face on the SCG circuit. Just saying. Also, TES has Top 8'd 2 Grand Prix.
I want to be a Padawan..
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
@ storm is hard
The hard parts of playing TES and DDFT (and ANT, TNT, NLS, Iggy Pop, etc) have always been playing your cantrips, managing your protection (particularly discard spells), and building the your 75 correctly for what you expect to play against. People fumble about these steps, things that are very basic to high level magic, and then complain that STORM DECK $FOO is hard.
@ no primer
I wrote a short article on the rest of the decisions in TES (what to tutor for, how to adn, etc) and it's on Bryant's first page of his thread. I could write the same thing for Doomsday, in about the same length. It wouldn't even include standard Doomsday piles since if you know your deck well enough to be reasonably playing it, you have no need of Doomsday piles. If you want Doomsday piles, go to Storm Boards and there is a thread on Doomsday piles. You'll learn a lot and there are links to several very good documents on the subject from various storm boards authors.
As far as playing cantrips, discard, fetchlands, etc correctly, that is something far outside the scope a primer. Hundreds of pages can be written on the decision trees that good pilots go through intuitively, but I am not Steve Menendian and I have no desire to put down the 300 pages necessary to properly explain and demonstrate lines of play. The best quick coverage here would be something along the lines of LSV-style screencasts of MTGO or Cockatrice with the gameplay along with commentary, but I personally don't have that kind of time.
@ IGG not in the maindeck
IGG haunts me. I draw that card at the worst possible time (which is usually in the opening hand). Pretty much the only time you want to see it in your opening hand is when a barn thoughtseizes you and takes it out of fear.
That said, IGG in the maindeck is useful. It gives you a cheap and efficient pile to win when passing the turn as well as a quick and efficient way to win with a single accelerant. These things are useful vs aggro decks and go a long way to letting Doomsday race aggro without the sheer brokeness that Ad Nauseam provides.
Fwiw, there are pass the turn piles involving multiple Doomsdays or Wishes that can kill an opponent around 20 life, but it's true that these are nowhere near as efficient as the IGG piles.
@ pulp_fiction's list
I'd probably want an Ideas Unbound in my sideboard. It has become something that I wish for quite a bit to turn Burning Wish into a useful draw spell. Along the same lines, Infernal Contract is also available (and can play through REB/Pyroblast), but with Gitaxian Probe already in the maindeck, Ideas Unbound's UU is enticing.
I hate Shattering Spree, but I can see where your manabase needs the City of Brass and that relegates Pulverize to the binder.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
I've been doing some work last month documenting DDFT piles in a nice layout. And yes, the Probe piles are the sickest (previously they were Street Wraith piles but Probe just adds +1 free storm). There are storm piles where you can get 11-12 storms for just U or B (post DD). Most of the sick storms involve IGG or Probe or multiple LED/Tops.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...hl=en_US#gid=0
I personally haven't gotten to playing this deck, but if someone is serious about combo, I think there is no other combo deck that really trains you to play combo than DDFT. TES/ANT is very much successful due to the raw power and speed of Ad Nauseam, but offers very little when variance sets in or too much disruption prevents you from winning with Ad Nauseam (either life totals or post-Ad Nauseam facing against Stifles etc). With DDFT, you are usually a full turn slower, but being able to craft piles that are Misstep free (e.g. LED LED BW IGG LED LED IT/BW TOA), a guaranteed 13 storm pile that wins when you're at 2 life, is something ANT/TES can never achieve. The deck is incredibly hard to learn/master. I'm just compiling a ton of piles, and reworking how to play each pile, to get a better foundation.
The big project for my spreadsheet is labelling and grouping piles i.e. I want to group the piles that are powerful (piles with low CMC but high storm count), piles that dodge misstep/snare, piles that win through Stifle, piles that win through dazex1/2/3/4, piles that generate infinite storm, etc etc. That will be a huge project once I'm done finishing the existing piles that are found documented by the online community.
Too much work these few days/weeks so I won't be able to update it. The page loads forever, since the spreadsheet is huge, and all automated (all you have to do is to type out the PLAYOUT correctly and it'll generate the storm count and mana required automatically).
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...hl=en_US#gid=0
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
@ no primer
I wrote a short article on the rest of the decisions in TES (what to tutor for, how to adn, etc) and it's on Bryant's first page of his thread. I could write the same thing for Doomsday, in about the same length. It wouldn't even include standard Doomsday piles since if you know your deck well enough to be reasonably playing it, you have no need of Doomsday piles. If you want Doomsday piles, go to Storm Boards and there is a thread on Doomsday piles. You'll learn a lot and there are links to several very good documents on the subject from various storm boards authors.
As far as playing cantrips, discard, fetchlands, etc correctly, that is something far outside the scope a primer. Hundreds of pages can be written on the decision trees that good pilots go through intuitively, but I am not Steve Menendian and I have no desire to put down the 300 pages necessary to properly explain and demonstrate lines of play. The best quick coverage here would be something along the lines of LSV-style screencasts of MTGO or Cockatrice with the gameplay along with commentary, but I personally don't have that kind of time.
If it helps at all, there's still the clips of MattiasNL playing Doomsday in MTGO Dailies (http://blip.tv/mattiasnl). They aren't perfect, but they helped me when I was first starting out with the deck. As long as the viewer understands that the player isn't immaculate in his play, I'd say it's a good learning tool.
