[Deck] Merfolk

@DukeDemonKn1ght's list:

How's 3 Thrasher working for you? I used to say that running less than 4 was crazy, but now I realized that he's very clunky if you have 4. Last time I tested, I was comfortable with 2, but 3 is probably fine as well.

However, I'm going to go with my gut on this, but I really really think you need a total of 3 Jitte in your 75. Two Jitte isn't consistent enough in the deck, especially when you consider that Legend tactic and other people's removal. Perhaps 3 Jitte maindeck aren't needed, but in the games you need Jitte to win, I guess mostly faster aggro decks or Burn, you'll want 3 Jitte.

I have more suggestions, but some are contigent on the fact you run (three) Jitte. I'll see what you think about running 3 Jitte.

If that were my deck, I'd make these changes (for now):

-1 Wake Thrasher
-1 Relic
(-1 Wasteland)

+1 Jitte
+1 Tidal Warrior
(+1 Mutavault)

My suggestion of a 3rd Tidal Warrior sounds retarded, but I can justify it by saying that it works better with Jitte as you can quickly Vial it in after a Turn 1 Vial followed by a Turn 2 Jitte. More importantly, actually, Tidal Warrior makes Reejerey's ability much more dangerous. Doesn't sound like much, but from my experience, Reejerey's ability can steal games where you should've lost.

I was often dead set that Standstill was the best card in the deck, and I often based many card inclusions on their interactions with Standstill. That said, I've always ran Mutavault to the max. My reasoning why I think the 4th Vault is better than the 4th Wasteland because Mutavault can directly win you the game, whereas Wasteland does not, and based on my experience, I always thought 4 Wasteland was too many and undercutting Islands. I parenthesized the land switch because I'm sure you can justify that split. But yeah, I'm curious about your reasoning.

Hope my suggestions help.

As for sideboard suggestions, I don't have anything to add, but I don't think Thorn of Amethyst is a viable sb option. You run way too many instants/etc. to make Thorn one-sided.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

decklist

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Hey Caleb, it's pretty ot that list ! I like it a lot. Still not sure about that relics, though, atm i'm back with the ol' good Echoin' Truths and they seem nuts, even if they're not "definitive" removals. i'm goint to test it, in any case.
btw, did the Minamo trick ever work for you? I tried a singleton minamo in my decklist (which sounds less or more like yours 'cept for +1 tidal warrior, +1 land, +2 relics, -2 jitte and -2 relics), and it never did Thrasher shenanigans.
Also, i would not like to draw it when i have to drop daze on the board and that's the only coloured land.

What's the idea behind Minamo? Pay U and tap it to untap itself?

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Hey Caleb, it's pretty ot that list ! I like it a lot. Still not sure about that relics, though, atm i'm back with the ol' good Echoin' Truths and they seem nuts, even if they're not "definitive" removals. i'm goint to test it, in any case.
btw, did the Minamo trick ever work for you? I tried a singleton minamo in my decklist (which sounds less or more like yours 'cept for +1 tidal warrior, +1 land, +2 relics, -2 jitte and -2 relics), and it never did Thrasher shenanigans.
Also, i would not like to draw it when i have to drop daze on the board and that's the only coloured land.

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@Piceli: I've actually won a couple games in testing using Minamo... Not games I would have won otherwise either: games where Minamo just allowed me to get ridiculously ahead on the race and nullify the math they had been using to establish a clock. I wouldn't say it happens often, obviously. It's a one-of which is dependent on another card, which I run as a three-of, in order to have any real value besides producing blue mana. Minamo's not exactly necessary, but so far I have always found the 11 Islands to be enough to back up my 4 Daze... Although I definitely see the situation you're suggesting and obviously it's bound to happen eventually. In my opinion though, Minamo is not only cool but very good as well, and a fair amount of people I've played against seem to still be unaware of the trick, which is butter as far as I'm concerned.

Echoing Truth is not a bad suggestion for the main... I really don't know which would be better between it or Relic of Progenitus; it's hard to say which is more flexible right now, graveyard hate or bounce...

@ Berserked: Yup, that's the trick. Note that this only really does anything when you have a Wake Thrasher on the table, but also note that if you do this allows you to do fucking NUTTY amounts of damage.

@ Shawon:
a.) Third Wake Thrasher is awesome, but I don't think I would ever play four copies. However, it's about the only creature in this deck that can win the game on its own, which really shouldn't be undervalued.

b.) I don't think the third Jitte is necessary. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure that Jitte is necessary at all... There are a few other cards I may try out instead. But as a two-of, it's pretty much guaranteed to do something when I do see it and not clog up my hand in multiples. In many faster matchups such as the ones you mention I would actually take out Jitte for more defensive cards, like Propaganda or Hydroblast, etc. Jitte is just kind of a place-holder in my build, and I may end up phasing it out for something more impressive once I find what that is... Sower of Temptation seems hot to me, but I would think I'd need at least 20 lands to run her...

c.) Here's why I like 4 Wasteland/ 3 Mutavault: Wasteland does not cost as much to use as Mutavault. I've often found that when I get two Mutavaults on the table, one often activates the other one because I don't want to use four lands in order to get two attackers instead of continuing to play spells. Mutavault is slightly better with Standstill, but with 21 creatures and 3 Mutavaults, I find that I always have threats on the board early enough to use Standstill.

Also, I would argue that Standstill is not really the best card in this deck. Personally, if I were to pick an mvp I would probably say Merrow Reejerey, because his triggered ability has won many games for me, as well as his +1/+1 team boost. I like Standstill well enough to use it in my build obviously, but I find myself sideboarding it out against a fair number of different decks. Basically, in my opinion, if there is a risk that you will not be able to gain board position over the opponent in time to play Standstill, i.e. your opponent's deck is aggressive enough that they will have damage on the table by the time you can play Standstill, you should sideboard it out for that match.

Generally Speaking:
As far as the sideboard choices I'm debating for my list above, here are the cards I'm not so sure about:
Hydroblast
Divert
Thorn of Amethyst

*All of these cards seem either a little limited to me (Hydroblast, Thorn), and/or I've never really gotten to work for me so far in my testing (Divert, Thorn)

**However, even if I cut these entirely, I'm still not done making sideboard cuts... Personally I think Annul is nuts and works to counteract a lot of the things that give our deck the fits, such as Engineered Plague, EE, Deed, Pithing Needle, opposing Vials, Counterbalance, etc.

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c.) Here's why I like 4 Wasteland/ 3 Mutavault: Wasteland does not cost as much to use as Mutavault.

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See, this is the answer I was looking for. Now I understand the split. I'd probably switch to that split next time I test.

So far we have, for the open MD slots:

Relic of Progenitus
Echoing Truth

I have another suggestion: How about Remand? It's effectively never a dead draw, and at best, it's a Time Walk.

I think Pithing Needle is amazing in the board - I have been testing 4. Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives, Sensei's Top, Vedalken Shackles, Deed, Nevs Disk, Mishra's Factory, the list goes on. It really has stopped some decks cold in games 2/3 for me.

Null Rod can do great things too, though I love the fact Needle can come down turn 1.

Meanwhile Thorn has been underwhelming, I was still Stormed to death with one in play (though I've only ever drawn one copy). Not sure what else works though.

I'd probably suggest this:
SB:
Relic of Progenitus (3)
Pithing Needle (4)
Back to Basics (3)
Echoing Truth (2)
Stifle (3)

@JasonX-NL
I tried Saprazzan Heir but didn't like her due to the fact that she's not that offensive. I like Inkfathom Infiltrator better.

Wake Thrasher 2 or 3.
I've tried 2 and 3 setup, i liked the 3 better for my list.

Jitte 2 or 3.
I've tried them both aswell. The problem with 3 is that it gets stuck in your hand if you don't drop lands each turn. Most likely you want to drop creature 1st over a jitte because you want more threat over a singleton creature packed with jitte.

But here comes a tricky part that is sometimes hard to choose. If you cast jitte more or less its a force counter or opponents must find a solution quickly if he / she is playing aggro aswell. Jitte gives a very big boost in aggro wars.

As for the Mana Vortex Idea.
For me it doesn't fit in this deck. You need all the lands you have to drop continous threat and your threat isnt big aswell so most likely it will quickly die in combat.

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Originally Posted by AcidFiend

I think Pithing Needle is amazing in the board - I have been testing 4. Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives, Sensei's Top, Vedalken Shackles, Deed, Nevs Disk, Mishra's Factory, the list goes on. It really has stopped some decks cold in games 2/3 for me.

Null Rod can do great things too, though I love the fact Needle can come down turn 1.

Meanwhile Thorn has been underwhelming, I was still Stormed to death with one in play (though I've only ever drawn one copy). Not sure what else works though.

I'd probably suggest this:
SB:
Relic of Progenitus (3)
Pithing Needle (4)
Back to Basics (3)
Echoing Truth (2)
Stifle (3)

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Besides vs. Storm combo, what other decks would you side in Stifle against? Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating Stifle... I don't use it these days, but I have used it in this deck and it's a good card. But I think really, you should run it in the main-deck or not at all. I just can't really see what match-ups you would want to bring it in for on games 2-3...

Pithing Needle is good, I consider it almost auto-include in my sideboard... I find three copies to be enough though.

Also, what do you think about Annul? I haven't tested it much so far, but the range of applications seems just nuts. Enchantments and artifacts make up about half of the things that are generally problematic for us, from Deed to EE to Plague, to Counterbalance to opposing Jitte to opposing Pithing Needle... The other thing that gives this deck problems, generally speaking, is larger opposing creatures.

Which brings me to this conclusion: In my mind, the two most generally applicable sideboard cards for this deck are Echoing Truth and Annul... Between main-deck and sideboard I want 3-4 Echoing Truth, and 3-4 Annul in the sideboard.

As far as other cards which I want in the sideboard definitely: Pithing Needle, Propaganda, Relic of Progenitus.

**One card I'm sort of torn about is Back to Basics. I used to play three copies, and I've done some brutal things with it, but I'm not really sure if B2B has ever really been the card that won the game for me. I'm thinking it's probably safe to bump it down to a two of, and I've been toying with the idea of just not running it. Does anyone think this is crazy? Or think this is sensible?

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Originally Posted by Nelis

I never really get the whole argument that Wasteland has to be accompanied by Stifle. I never hear any goblin player use this argument.

What am I not understanding here?

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That's a fair question. The thing is they do not need eachother to function, but they do complement eachother. They don't have to be together; Goblins obviously doesn't do it because they can't. But Merfolk can, so you better have a very valid argument not to run Stifles. Saying "there's no room" and running Tidal Warrior is a bad argument for instance. But there are cases where I think it's valid to drop Stifles. For instance when you need the slots for other utility spells, like Echoing Truth.

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Originally Posted by AcidFiend

Null Rod can do great things too, though I love the fact Needle can come down turn 1.

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Null Rod also disables your Vial. I've made the mistake of siding out Aether Vial a couple of times, when I really shouldn't have: Aether Vial enables you to keep hands with less lands. So in the Pithing Needle vs. Null Rod debate, Pithing Needle is an automatic winner.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

That's a fair question. The thing is they do not need eachother to function, but they do complement eachother. They don't have to be together; Goblins obviously doesn't do it because they can't. But Merfolk can, so you better have a very valid argument not to run Stifles. Saying "there's no room" and running Tidal Warrior is a bad argument for instance. But there are cases where I think it's valid to drop Stifles. For instance when you need the slots for other utility spells, like Echoing Truth.

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Not sure if this is an off-handed comment about the list I just posted, but I'll take the bait: The reason I run 2 Tidal Warriors "over Stifle," if that's how you want to construe it, is because Warrior deals damage. I've tried Stifle, and it's good, don't get me wrong. But so far I haven't been missing it, and it's been nice not having to worry about keeping one blue mana open for it.

Obviously if your meta is just infested with ANT or something, Stifle may be a good call. And even if not, it's still a good call to use it. But honestly, the argument against Stifle is that it's replaceable by cards that may be more aggressive, flexible in the matchups they hose, or more universally applicable to what we do. "There's no room" isn't really my argument, but I think the room that omitting Stifle creates is valuable and worth consideration nonetheless, and I say this after having tested Stifle plenty.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Besides vs. Storm combo, what other decks would you side in Stifle against?

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Well I actually like Stifle in the board because like Pithing Needle etc, you know what you want to use it against.

I haven't tested it extensively, but I beat Painter Combo twice (games 2 & 3) by Stifling the CIP ability. I Stifle'd Dredges Cephalid Colisseum activation which would have Dredged about 18 cards. Its pretty versatile.

Good point about Null Rod owning your Aether Vial. I hadn't tested it in this deck, and might have found that out the hard way :tongue:

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Originally Posted by AcidFiend

I haven't tested it extensively, but I beat Painter Combo twice (games 2 & 3) by Stifling the CIP ability.

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Well done, Sir.
"AS Painter's Servant comes into play,..."
Sure you can do that?

Stifle is a really really good card if you actually could stifle all those card suggested in this thread, like Pithing Needle, Painters and more...

But since you can't, I havn't decided if I like it or not. Still trying out new things...

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Originally Posted by elof

Stifle is a really really good card if you actually could stifle all those card suggested in this thread, like Pithing Needle, Painters and more...

But since you can't, I havn't decided if I like it or not. Still trying out new things...

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That is not the point. It seems that you can convince (thrash talk?) a reasonable amount of players that Stifle can do more than it actually should. :tongue: So. Piceli89 is right, well done, Sir, let me have a gulp of your potion of persuasion mastery my Acid friend and lets sell electric blankets in Africa.
From a tournament regulations pov this isnt even dangerous because a judge can not decide if you do it on purpose or not. Most likely both players will earn a warning for not maintaining gamestate (if this ever is going to become revealed to a judge in time). Sure you can not pull the trick forever because nobody is going to believe you the second time ;) So watch out anybody is playing Stifle on you the next time! "I stifle your ability to win the game."

I consider playing stifle on something that can't be stifled as cheating and I think you whould be in alot of trouble if anybody finds out.

However, playing Pithing Needle on Lion's Eye Diamond, Life from the Loam and such is perfectly fine by me...

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Originally Posted by elof

However, playing Pithing Needle on Lion's Eye Diamond, Life from the Loam and such is perfectly fine by me...

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Don't forget to stifle opposing dreadnought's CiP ability to prevent them from touching the ground, eh :wink:

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Originally Posted by elof

I consider playing stifle on something that can't be stifled as cheating and I think you whould be in alot of trouble if anybody finds out.

However, playing Pithing Needle on Lion's Eye Diamond, Life from the Loam and such is perfectly fine by me...

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We just found out that somebody did :really: (by mistake) Now I am far too honest for playing against the rules (as long as I know them) for the love of honor but I just couldn't help thinking about the opportunities.

Behold Merfolk of the new meta!

No, I kid. But this build has been doing pretty damn good against the shift in the meta towards NLU and people messing around with Lorescale Kootle. I've decided to take a new approach to the good ol' folk and here it is:

1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Mutavault
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
6 Island
2 Tidal Warrior
3 Selkie Hedge-Mage
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Cursecatcher
2 Mirrorweave
3 Daze
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial

SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Propaganda


Explanations:

Bounce effects are the new thing now, so I've turned to the annoying as hell Selkie Hedge-Mage for all bouncy purposes. This means you have to eat a swing before you use her/it, but this has never been a problem in my testing. Selkie has been ridiculous at giving tempo, especially from Kootles and Tombstalkers, but bouncing a goyf and getting a free 2/2 for taking 1 swing is definitely worth it. Chain these guys for a "System Player Loss." Even though I only run 6 real Islands, I had to put in a Riptide lab for late game hijinks with Selkie or Silvergill Adept.

I've caved and started using Brainstorm and fetches. Why? Because no one cares about them anymore. The edge we had by not using them has shifted the metagame to stop trying to stifle so many fetchlands. Also, card quality is huge when fighting against stupid vanilla snakes, so it is a must.

Since the addition of Brainstorm, I have cut down Standstill by 1, since we've all had times where it sucks. That doesn't mean at all that I don't enjoy using it anymore, but it has been a necessity... and brainstorm makes up in part to the minor loss in CA from that 1.

The last thing that is obvious is Mirrorweave. I took out my win condition of Wake Thrasher for Mirrorweave. This is so good most of the time, that I never miss the Thrasher in it's spot. It needs either LoA or Reejery on your side to win, or any big creature on their side. I played this against a Landstill deck to turn all of my guys into Eternal Dragons and put him at -18 in one swing. Mirrorweave became the best choice for me when I started using Selkie and Tidal Warriors (putting my creature count at 21). People get overconfident against your 1/1s and start swinging in with goyf. You swing with 4 goyfs back at them and the game is over.

This came up because maindeck Relic is no longer enough to deal with big creatures. Now Selkie and Mirrorweave are enough.

Comments, random trashing, BRING IT ON!!!!!:tongue:

I thought you were dead, dude. No more comments on here, i was like " where's Phoenix Ignition flaming everyone?". Well, good to see ya still here.

"I don't play fetches in this deck because of that 1-2 lives that save me, since i often end games at 1-2 lives.." AHH Dude, so i see that you changed your mind and are going to play NOT only fetches, but EVEN brainstorm !!
What do you mean when you say " the meta as shifted so this is the new version"? Because, although i feel that effectively something new has appeared starting to dominate legacy (read:Nassifesque lists and the new Bant), i still felt the the old, good, evergreen "traditional" 'Folks list was enough. I mean, since the meta is shifting towards a slower approach of the type " Counterbalance plus Fatties", i thought that we, with our diruption and, most of alll, the insane advantage given by Lord of Atlanntis, could exploit these features in our favor.

However, I don't wanna talk about this, let's see your list.
It seems like an odd twist, but it really looks good. One question though: are you really sure of Selkie Mage and Mirrorweave? I mean, Selkie ,apart from the fact that in this monocolor build isn't optimized, seems kinda slow combined with reejereys and weaves. Now, you have about 7 drops @3 and 2 drops @4 to be hardcast. Not sure if merfolk can afford this "slow,esponential growing " towards your finisher, Mirrorweave. Btw, seeing that you want to optimize Selkie with the Riptide (even if is a 1-of), i'm really wondering if this doesn't request too much time to get the right way. Maybe it's me who's used to play an aggressive, fast, disrupting version of the 'Folks..
And the real point which makes me doubtful is that , with Mirroweave, you're likely most of the times to copy 1 of the lord, especially Lord of atlantis, for a lethal swing. That's ok, but did it never happen that someone, understanding your intentions, stp'ed/bolted/removed your lords in reponse, making the "finisher" way less strong, or in a certain sense, fizzle? i mean, it costs 4, so it's kinda slow. Apart from the fact of being esposed to opposing daze as hell, seems to be pretty easy to prevent, while an EOT vialed thrasher under standstill could have been teh nutzzz.
Also, i understand the logic of dropping to 3 standstills because of brainstorm, and therefore, playing mutavault as 2-ofs, but don't you risk to weaken a lot what has been designed to be the strongest sinergy for early-game control (standstill+vial+mutavault), this way? Without standstill, vial is less broken, that's for sure, and the quantities of the aforementioned cards you use make standstill way less asymmetrical.

I don't want to deny the fact that Mirroweave is a great finisher (having 5 lord of atlantis on the table isn't that shit, i suppose :-D), nor the great sinergy between brainstorm and fetches to thin hand and deck. But i'm not convinced 'bout Selkie, really, especially the "tapped" issue, since the opponent is not alwyas going to swing with his lonely goyf if he sees some dudes of yours on the board and understands you're going to backfire lots of damage helped by a lord, so he keeps his fatties as walls to stall the game.
Echoing truth perhaps is still better, bouncing pesky non-creature permanents too.

Gonna test this tweak in any case, and i'll let you know, however.
EDIT: ah, nice sinergy between reejerey and a played-from-hand Selkie, btw.