Has Thoughtseize ever caused an issue with the life-loss for Ad Nauseam? Given how early the deck goes off or tries to, would Inquisition of Kozilek serve the same purpose, or is not being able to hit things like Force of Will too dangerous?
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Has Thoughtseize ever caused an issue with the life-loss for Ad Nauseam? Given how early the deck goes off or tries to, would Inquisition of Kozilek serve the same purpose, or is not being able to hit things like Force of Will too dangerous?
obviously it caused trouble for many players but being able to pick teeg/canonist/censor and forces is worth the lifeloss. inquisition is just way worse because you can not pick the forces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
i am testing a 4c ant list atm (comparable to the one picelli posted on page 119) and i am 7-1 in tournament games right now ... i only lost to fat child playing burn 2-1 :eyebrow:
@practical jokes
thanks...i like your lists ability to go off at lower life but is removing a sea worth a badlands?
I'd assume the additional red source is there so after a burning wish, one can resolve a second red spell from the board - grapeshot, empty the warrens, meltdown etc. I'd rather cut a basic for a badlands personally, but I usually just rely on finding a petal if I need additional red mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambert101
It shouldn't be, from what I understand that would make the deck a TES list, which is not what this deck is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
Well then I'm unclear as to what the second red source is needed for, I've never had a problem holding a fetchland for a volc until I'm going off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
@chikenbonk
the badlands is needed for Pulverize in the board ("sacrifice 2 mountain").
@practical joke
you list seems really interesting; i'm testing the lorddotm's TNT list with 2 chrome mox becouse too many times i die due to Ad nauseam without revel any lotus petal. I think that i'll try it.
Sry for double post
I've decided to play -1 island (leaveing 1 island, 1 swamp) for the second sea.
The second island is rarely needed, and it's a better option with those wastelands around.
As said, the second mountain dual is indeed for pulverize, which gives acces to free castable spells, meltdown is also an option.
Chosen for badlands and volcanic is due to the colorfix.
Thoughtseize is always worth paying 2 life for, nowadays it gets misstepped a lot, so when it resolves it's totally worth every information you can get + gets rid of a card.
Yes, you can chose to run inquisition, but that does not get a force, which is mostly the one card you want to hit.
Ugh. 1-2-1 with a bye in a local event today, playing TNT.
Round 1: Lost to the worst player in the room playing a bad Affinity list. Game 1 he nut-draws me. Game 2 I Duress away his Plating, Meltdown his board except for a Myr Enforcer. I need to draw a bounce spell and don't.
Round 2: Lost to Deadguy Ale. Game 1 we each keep 1-landers. He Vindicates mine. Game 2 he crushes me with Hymn, Extirpate, and Batterskull.
Round 3: I draw with Countertop.
Round 4: Bye.
List: 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Preordain, 4 Duress, 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Cabal Ritual, 3 Infernal Tutor, 4 Burning Wish, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Lotus Petal, 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains, 1 Tendrils of Agony, 4 Polluted Delta, 2 Scalding Tarn, 1 Misty Rainforest, 2 Bloodstained Mire, 2 Swamp, 2 Island, 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island. Side: 3 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains, 1 Infernal Tutor, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Meltdown, 1 Gitaxian Probe, 3 Dark Confidant, 2 Echoing Truth, 1 Wipe Away, 1 Hurkyl's Recall.
The wishboard Gitaxian Probe was very good.
Have you guys ever wanted access to a 9th or 10th discard effect against really slow decks like Landstill? Slowly building up your mana base and forcing 8 cards through plus a Tendrils is pretty solid, but sometimes an inopportune Vendilion Clique messes things up, or Jace/Standstill overwhelms your disruption.
I probably need to just play better, since I'm not used to the matchup, but I'm considering running an Extirpate or two to get rid of opposing Missteps/Forces. Usually, the Duress + Extirpate plan is terrible (in general), but against slow control decks, a target will eventually present itself, can often result in card advantage, and more importantly, provide the opening to break through your opponent's defenses.
Edit: against those decks playing 12-16 counters (Force, Misstep, Snare, Counterspell) + other disruption like Clique, do you board out at least a few copies of LED?
Actually rather not, LED is way to much mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Against 12+ counters I go for 10 protection.
boarding in: 4 swarms, 1 trop for, 2 chrome mox, 1 island (or sea) 1 seize, 1 preordain.
leaving 4 duress, 2 seize, 4 swarms for protection.
If your plan is to cast a Tendrils from your hand, you want to board out ~2 LED.
If your plan is to cast a Tutor or Wish for a Tendrils, LED stays in.
I played this weekend went x-3 at SCG baltimore im new to the deck but some things I noticed I wanted, the discard effeects are getting alot worse I wanted Mental misstep in the deck, so the next time I play it I will only use 4 Thought seize/3 Thought seize and 1 Duress and 3-4 Mistep. also I never knew how complicated this deck is to play but by all rights its amazing.
So many control lists are running Cliques and Batterskulls, this doesn't seem like a viable strategy anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
Clique was one of my biggest issues in Baltimore, she destroys us.
So, what do we do with this little gem:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7396/visions.jpg
Nothing. We never have this many cards in graveyard, unless we've already won. It doesn't even synergize with Doomsday as that card exiles your yard.
Yeah unless you're super worried about dredge that is a SB card at best against dredge...which we really don't need. We also can't really get 20 cards in the GY that easily unless it's a VERY long game.
On the tendrils from hand plan. I concur; clique wrecks that plan hardcore and clique is getting played a lot right now.
On additional protection spells i.e. more than 8. At this point, why not just run dark confidant? He draws you into more cards so you can try to go off more or he draws you into more protection to force the combo through. Also beats for 2 if they are blockerless, reducing the required storm which is really clutch sometimes while sometimes it doesn't matter and you rack up 15 storm or something.
I'm not a storm expert and certainly not that experienced with the matchup, but after some theory crafting, my strategy against Landstill decks going forward (playing TNT) is as follows:
1) If I'm running Dark Confidant, board them in about half the time. It's great when Confidant is unchecked, but realistically, they run Spell Snares and other counterspells, plus many opponents leave in removal anyway. Keeping them guessing makes them risk keeping in dead removal.
2) If I have an extra copy of Ad Nauseam in the sideboard, I board that in.
3) Board in all copies of discard (to go up to 8).
4) I'll probably run 3 SB copies of Tendrils and 1 SB copy of Empty the Warrens. I'm planning to move 2 SB copies of Tendrils and the Empty main, cutting some Preordains, LEDs, and the IGG. This makes us more resilient to Clique. Empty is a great card to short-storm against control. One copy of Tendrils and not Empty is left as a Burning Wish target because getting double red to cast Wish and Empty when necessary can be difficult, especially after cutting LEDs.
5) Bring in the SB Infernal Tutor, possibly cutting a Burning Wish if necessary. You'll rarely want to Wish for Infernal because you can't profitably hellbent yourself to set up a winning Ad Nauseam or Ill-Gotten Gains. But the Infernal Tutor is excellent at grabbing extra Duress effects or Rituals (or even another Tendrils to prevent from getting Cliqued). There aren't that many profitable Burning Wish targets in the matchup, besides a single Tendrils in my case, since you've already boarded in all your discard; Ill-Gotten Gains can occasionally be useful to generate extra storm if you strip away their hand and have plenty of mana, plus have extra copies of Tendrils in the graveyard.
6) The ideal 8-card hand when going off probably contains two copies of Tendrils, a few discard spells, and a boatload of ritual effects. If your opponent counters your discard spells and your rituals (or plays Clique), thereby adding to the storm count, you probably will be able to generate lethal storm with a single Tendrils. If he doesn't counter your rituals, you can probably generate enough mana to play Tendrils twice, which would certainly be lethal.
7) If I'm not running SB Dark Confidant, I will probably try out a few copies of Extirpate, which is highly experimental. It is excellent against slow decks because you and your opponent are slowly building up to the 8-vs-7 battle, and he's likely saving up his countermagic. You can then blow him out by hitting his Mental Misstep/Force of Will, gaining valuable information, removing all copies in his hand, and opening the window for your discard effects to rape his hand.
5) I still believe etw is incredibly underrated, especially in TES, but probably ANT too. Modern UW "landstill" lists don't play sweepers anymore. Needing storm 4 is way easier than storm 10 you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
7) Anyone else has an opinion on this? Even x years after it's release I still don't know if I like that card in legacy. Now that every deck starts with 4 mm, 4 fow it may be nice to be able to pate one of them.
5) I don't like it. I have the feeling that everyone and his mother are running Firespout / Explosives. Plus, against Stoneforge / Batterskull, you won't win the race ever.
7) I'm currently testing 2 main, together with 4 Duress / Seize. They are not too overwhelming, but aren't too bad either.
If control is an issue, how about City of Solitude? Sounds weird though :eek:
3 Mana is a bit much. Defense Grid seems better in almost every way.
Personally, I think that this deck has the following problems:
1) MM, maybe they have a force, maybe they don't.
2) Resp, Clique, target you.
3) Teeg (but maybe that's just me, I get the "GSZ from the top after discarding one" so often)
Imho, there's two things that come in handy there:
1) Brainfreeze, ignoring Teeg and can be cast in response to clique.
2) M12 cantrip.
This doesn't get by problem 1, but does work against the other two, with Brainfreeze (Storm 4 should even be enough) enabling Visions and Tendrils waiting in the sideboard to get fetched by Burning Wish. It should even be okay to go for 2 Minifreezes because you can just refill your hand with Visions.
But maybe I'm thinking too High Tide there :D
I have the opposite feeling about my metagame. I feel spout/EE are really on their way out now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
Etw turn 1/2 races SFM quite easily, but TES is better suited to do this reliably turn 1/2, so maybe etw isn't that good in ANT.
On city of solitude: if I play a 3CC spell in this deck, it should win me the game (DD)Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
Brainfreeze: when talking about clique, we're talking about having the kill spell (toa, bf) in hand or tutoring for it, brain freeze doesn't give you lethal storm count and generally isn't optimal in this deck. (It's lethal when you resolve Adn, but yeah, almost everything is lethal after Adn :wink:)Like you said: there are other decks much more capable of abusing the card
Has anyone ever thought about playing 1-2 v cliques in there sb vs slower control decks? Paired with confidant it could potentially be a verry powerful manplan. And trades with opposing cliques. Just food for thought.
Clique isn't going to race even a slow control deck. The slowest can't side out all of their creature removal, and the ones that maindeck SFM pair it with 2-3 VClique. The best you're likely to get is to cycle a counterspell and legend rule their clique.
Some advice to all those running Confidant: try Sylvan Library instead. You don't care about the lifeloss in the matchup when you're just trying to either bait them into a counter war or mini tendrils them. You get to draw 2-3 cards from it and then it filters once or twice. This is miles better than Confidant.
Except you expose yourself to wasteland, and it doesn't attack. Confidants attacking for 4-10 damage matters quite a bit in my experience.
It also doesn't have to sit around for 3 turns, have the opponent willfully ignorant of your deck in at least game three, if not game two as well, or turn on otherwise dead cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown of Tresserhorn
Dark Confidant has never been good in legacy storm combo as a measure to beat control.
I'm not even sure that the Wasteland issue is valid given how most lists are playing at least 17 lands with 4-5 basics anyway. You can afford to get a land wasted to draw 3 cards for 2 mana. The top per turn thereafter is just icing.
Grid seems better but it gets Snare'd very easily. Compared to Solitude which is "at-best" would get FOW'ed although casting Grid which would get Snare'd would at least make BWish (if you run TnT) or Infernal kinda home free.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
Anyways, the TES master Mr. Cook just made a strong finish recently using the aforementioned deck.
I very much disagree with this. Against control decks, mana (especially lands) is an invaluable resource. If your plan is to "mini-tendrils" you'll need plenty of lands to bait spells. Certainly having a land wasted is a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Also, taking damage does add up quick, as most decks play cliques/other annoying creatures. I'd much rather play a confidant, as not only does it attack, but it will likely draw just as many cards as a library. Also, realize that every attack means 1 less storm. I can't count how many times Confidant has won me the game vs. shit like Junk/TA, where sylvan would have been garbage.
I'll just say that you haven't convinced me that the benefits of running sylvan outweigh the costs.
If I'm spending 2 mana with the intent to draw. At least 2 cards without the benefit of having legs, I might as well be playing nights whisper as it is on color and can b useful on the actual combo turn
Exactly which decks are you all bringing in Confidants? I only ever found them useful against BUG and other combo decks. Against all of the Standstill decks, if they didn't have Batterskull, I would generally check for in-hand Cliques then proceed to 8 v. 7 them. The Stoneforge decks, you either win when they tap out for Stoneforge (or whatever), or if you can't you just Duress it away then go back to the 8 v. 7 plan.
emidln's Sylvan Library suggestion does seem more potent against Junk or Team America, but seems a lot worse than Bob against Standstills due to the aforementioned inability to attack.
So, the big question is, is he better than Xantid Swarm?
Grand Abolisher
WW
Rare
Creature - Human Cleric
During your turn, your opponents can't cast spells or active abilities of artifacts, creatures, or enchantments.
2/2
If you're already in white, this seems like a good inclusion imho, he can't be misstepped (big +), but double white is kind of hard to get. If we don't count the CMC, I think he is better than Swarm, for the following reasons:
Counterbalance is always blind if he comes down.
No more Clique in your drawstep.
Can't be misstepped.
Landstill decks won't be able to activate Factories if your beating with him (and Confidant).
Could give this deck a very viable plan B with Confidants / him / maybe Cliques against all sort of slower decks.
@Malakai
Generally, I'm bringing Confidants against decks I know don't pack removal after G1 or have a heavy anti Storm board. So against Merfolk, all Landstill variants, even Loam (have to find Hurkyl's against Chalice in time), Dark Thresh. I guess the only decks I'm not packing them are aggro Tribes (Soldiers and the likes), Zoo and decks that have access to Lightning Bolt / Fire // Ice postboard.
Because the latter ones are almost dead I'm currently thinking if I want them main. They are strong enough and my opponents have dead cards with creature removal if I board them out G2 / G3.
Edit for list:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Swamp (maybe -1 Swamp, +1 Badlands)
1x Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
4x Infernal Tutor
2x Burning Wish
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Ad Nauseam
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain (maybe 4 Dark Confidant, than you could switch 1 Ad Nauseam with a second Tendrils of Agony)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Grand Abolisher
4x Thoughtseize
Sideboard:
4x Dark Confidant (if they aren't main)
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Wipe Away
Wish targets:
1x Meltdown
1x Eye of Nowhere
1x Deathmark
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
From the top of my head. Got a control freak here so I'll be testing it against landstill lists soon :D
Actually, they can. However the self-pumping ability is affected.Quote:
Originally Posted by mort-
Surely its a better Xantid in the table, but costing WW is really meh :/
And what does this guy do better than a City of Solitude? The City has a better casting cost for you cause it has only one "off"colour-Mana. It is also more difficult for your opponents to find enchantment-removal than creature removal.Only negative aspect: It does not deal damage to your opponent, but that is not necessary for storm afaik
Greetings
To me it sounds like you have the fear. I would invest more time in practicing the difficult matchups rather than searching for tech.
do you have any in mind and whats your strategy against them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
im new to the format and need some help understanding the way to beat the hard matchups.
Play. Play over and over. Try to understand the matchups. Play other decks, too, just to see how they tick. Try different sideboards. Play standard lists, but occasionally play weird lists. Play decks that are really difficult to pilot--storm, counterbalance, some of merfolk's matchups. Playing well is far more important than percentages here and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
After each game, try to figure out what you could have done differently. Look for your own mistakes--they're there. Try to learn to play quickly.
Never blame anything on luck. Luck is a part of the game. Blaming luck is like blaming losing on the game of Magic--you just look foolish.
I guess you mean me. To explain: As a combo loving unpowered Vintage player, ANT is like the wet dream in a wet dream for me. I think the deck is the best in the format, I'll play it everywhere and at any time. I'm just thinking that the hate opposing storm is now big enough to render our protection spells almost useless. So when there's a card that is even slightly useful in getting dead hate or at least bypassing hate, I'm testing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai