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To back this up, having Sylvan Safekeeper is also a good Teeg protection suite, since the nonly way UW Miracle deck can remove Teeg is with spot removal or Surprise Buttsecks! Snapcaster blocks. (don't let this happen please)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
With Terminus / Top starting to see play more, I'm thinking of playing SoLS again since winning the Jitte fight seems important right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I do love going back to the days where blue control just loses to Teeg wielding SoLS.
I often think about cutting Thalia because i think she isnt really necessary in my meta (a lot of maverick, uw control and a burn, a BUG) and i think i can add more useful cards.
Thalia is amazing against Burn and BUG. She's OK vs Miracles, and downright awful in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
Yeah but BUG and Burn are just about 2-3 decks in a tournament of ~40players.
There is a lot of Maverick and some UW miracle.
Nowadays there are some Elves (dont how to play against them) and one zoo player, he is so fast everytime i play against him. had no chance.
Some enchantress is there too, find it is a hard match up too.
Have you some ideas to play best?
If you're facing a lot of aggro, maindecking more removal (PtE or go to the PFires builds) and cutting Thalia is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
Enchantress is a terrible matchup regardless (although I played 1 Aura of Silence, 1 Serenity in an eTutor board to make it not as horrible), so I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's a significant portion of your meta.
So is maindeck Gaddock Teeg no longer the standard? That's sad. Teeg does work in Maverick: shuts of Ad Nauseum, shuts off Wrath of God, shuts off JtMS, Tezzeret, and Elspeth, shuts off opposing Green Sun's when you need him to, shuts off Engineered Explosives, shuts off dumb artifacts in MUD, shuts off Sneak Attack, shuts off Miracle decks, etc etc.
For real, Teegs been hollaring "fuck the police," every since I sleeved this up. I'm surprised to see him getting cut from the main for Thalia #4.
Times change, plus he locks out your own GSZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini1337s
It may be time to bring Teeg back into the main (because of UW Miracles), but vs. RUG he does nothing (he is actually better out of the board to stop Submerge - G1 it is only FOW, which isn't that big of a threat).
ANT isn't that big, plus Thalia does a pretty good job beating ANT.
Teeg doesn't stop Reanimator. Teeg doesn't stop S&T -> Sneak Attack. Teeg does stop Through the Breach, which is why he is probably better out of the board vs. Sneak and Show (when they board S&T out for TtB, we can potentially lock them out with Teeg - their only out is bounce).
If there is any reason to put Teeg back into the main, it is Terminus. Wrath of God doesn't really see too much play anymore. Teeg is some good vs. UW. Who thought we would see the day when we are playing Teeg to stop control and not combo? Teeg used to be my go-to-guy when ANT was big. HAHA
Good points. I definitely agree with RUG and Reanimator, he's a dead card. I find that I have the most difficulty with wrath effects though, whether it be Terminus or WoG, so he's been my crutch for awhile. I'm going to try the 4th Thalia, and see how it plays out for a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
The 4th Thalia is more for stopping the quicker decks - RUG, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini1337s
If you are experiencing a lot of UW, it may be proper to run a 3/1 Thalia / Teeg split.
If UW, Goblins, and Merfolk comprise at least 25% of the new meta, I think a 3/1 split is proper because Thalia isn't going to do much against UW (taxing a 1 CC Miracle doesn't mean shit) and against Tribal, Thalia is horrible, so running 3 game 1 means less chance of dead cards sitting in your hand (although Thalia's first strike with Jitte is nice ;) ). Teeg may have some value against Merfolk and Goblins postboard, stopping Submerge and Pyrokenisis, respectively, but Thalias are definitely coming out versus Tribal for some spot removal.
If your meta is packing lots of Enchantress and Affinity/Mud-like artifact decks, you can easily put 3 Serenity in your sideboard without the slow eTutor package. Serenity just wins those matches.
Thalia is very strong against Enchantress by the way. In that matchup it makes more sense to cut 2nd or 3rd Ooze, and the equipment package also doesn;t do that much.
Hi,
I have seen that sulfur elementak is card that is starting to be in a lot of sideobards in 2/3 copies...i think this isn't a card to umderstimate...i was thinking to put 2 copies of Mayor of Avarbuck in sideboard to counter the effects of sulfur...is even an human...so is synergic with Cavern of Souls....this is a consideretaion that i have done in reletaion to the actual general metagame...RUG Delver and RUG Tempo r played a lot, and here in Italt is even starting to be put in some snapcontrol decks.
could this be a competitive SB im this meta?:
3 Phyrexian Revoker (too strong vs S&S name Gris or sneak...strong evem agaimst Ant and Elves)
2 Choke
3Gut Shot (Against Delver and very good in mirror, jnaspected)
1 Gaddock Teeg (1 IS MD)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction (MVP against Miracle)
1 Mayor of Avarbuck
I was thinking to cut Choke and play one more Mayor and one Path to exile...Choke is not so incisive like it seems...Miracle plays 1 Glacial fortress and 2 basic plains with disemchamt post SB...
What do u think?
You're better off with Honor of the Pure as a way to get around Sulfur Elemental.
ditto.
Additionally, what are you going to do if Mayor of Avabruck flips?
In order for Avabruck to work:
1) He has to be in play before Sulfur Elemental. This means aggressively GSZing or Fauna Shamaning to get him into play. We have better targets to go after like Knight and Ooze.
2) Avabruck has to survive. He's a 1/1, so he's Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, and Lightning Bolt fodder. Plus he's a green creature, so he's susceptible to Submerge.
3) You have to have a STP/PTE in hand to kill the Sulfur Elemental within a turn or two of it coming into play (or before Avabruck flips, assuming he hasn't flipped already).
Don't cut choke, Choke just plain wins.
I agree with Water_Wizard on Mayor, he doesn't seem to cut it vs Sulfur Elemental, against RUG i think we want ot be GSZing with X=2 for Ooze or Scryb Ranger anyway.
Then again, I can't really say I can think of another answer to Sulfur Elemental, so do we just accept the blowout? Trying to play around it by holding cards in hand doesn't really seem to be a great stratey either...
Yes obv i have take in consideration all the things that you said about Mayor...iknow that is weak because is only a 1/1, but i play 4 mother of runes (not 3 like the GP's list) to protect it and if they bolt/submerge it they used a removal that could not go on something else like an ooze...we have to think that if we want to use a zenith for ooze we have to have 5 mana (3 for GSZ and 2 to stay out of bolt), 2 creatures in graveyard and we play anyway under Daze and PIerce....if we take ooze fast of GSZ we risk to loose it a cause of a Bolt...Canadian has no way to make card advantage, they could only cantrip, so a removal less in hand is not so bad like it seems...so this why i was thinking to put Mayor, and if he flip is not so brutal...he gives us a wolf 2/2 every turn, and the first one is put in play at the same turn as he had flip...Well I'll test it, maybe you r right and is a shit, maybe not :)...
Another intersting creatue is Daybreak Ranger, but to play it we need BOP MD, to optimez it and use his ability in case of flipping.
Anyway this is my actual MD list...i have posted SB but without main list some choose could not be so clear:
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswepth heath
2 Misty rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cavern of souls
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Knight ofthe reliquary
4 NOble hierarch
4 Mother of runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Linvala, Keeper of silence
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the last troll (it seems a shit but against Miracle isvery good, and if we have KArakas on battelfield we could stay out of Terminus, bounce it in hand and cat the turn after...Trust me, he works! :D)
1 Ulvenwald Tracker (I'm testing it, is not bad but at the same time he doesn't exalt me...i use it like the 5th removal that i can tutor with GSZ, in mirror is pretty cool and if he stay alive is good even against that fucking Delver...I'll test it a little more but this could become the fourth Thalia, the second Scryb, the second library or a tech card like Daybreak Ranger, in that case one hierarch will become a BoP)
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Green sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Gut Shot
2 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Krosan Grip
I need to create the perfect list for Ovinogeddon, the big tournament that we have here in Italy on September (about 400/500 players) so if someone could help me I'll be greatful :).
I think our worst MU now r Miracle control and Elves, and we don't have solutions to a fast Delver, this is why i play Gut Shot in SB...I tested a lot gainst Canadian and Miracle, but i don't have tested against Elves (even if i know how that deck works because i have played it a lot of times, i made even some top8s with elves in tournament with about 100 players) and I have no idea how is the MU against Nic Fit and Reanimate, because here in my town noone play theese decks...could someone enlight me? :)
hi ste,
reanimator is 50/50 matchup depends how u and ur opponent play. the score is put into play ooze before a renimate spell, however karakas help u if u dont do it. elesh norn is a problem if u go all-in, but for this and other there are plowshare that help u.
nic fit is a bad matchup. pernicius is the evil. and black titan break the ball.
post sb. with PW and pithing needle u can adjust the match.
a god card if u running again is mindcensor.
The discussion about Sulfur Elemental is old. From my experience, against RUG Thalia comes out cause it doesn't do that much and in comes PtE and/or Gut Shut. Between StP/PtE/GS the chances for a T1 delver surviving are prettey slim. After that, Tarmos and Gooses can be handled with our big creatures. I don't see the reason keeping Thalias in and taking out ...........(what actually?), for conditional cards. The closest of creatures I came to like was ulvenwald tracker, since its good against mirror and can be GSZed.
Are people that retarded to bring in Gut Shot against Delvers only?
I swear, no body uses that hollow space between their ears anymore.
^ Couldn't have said it better myself. Somebody has to be blunt. Bringing in Gut Shot is far too narrow. It kills exactly one card in the deck, and that's only if it hasn't flipped already. Idk Koby, maybe they've got the sick tech for burning them out at one life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I played RUG Tempo at the GP in Ghent. The 3th round I won game 3 vs Maverick with two flipped Delvers. After the match was over he revealed 2 useless Gutt Shots out of his hand :tongue:
Why are people liking Gut Shot so much over PtE these days anyways? Just because the CFB list did alright at Atlanta?
Because it's 'free' removal and RUG delver heavily relies on taxing counters to avoid their creatures getting the axe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
It is also quite effective in the mirror where mother of runes is key.
Personally I prefer PtE. I went 6-2-1 in Ghent with 3 on sideboard (lost my last 2 rounds :().
Perhaps im not making myself clear enough.
DONT BOARD IN GUT SHOT AGAINST RUG DELVER.
It only kills one target and preflipped at that. Anecdotal evidence from a fee posts above should be reason enough to show yall why its terrible in that matchup. Against Mirror and Elves, yes its great board it in, play four if you feel so inclined.
Yeah but against RUG you can only ever hit a preflipped Delver with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
In the mirror, there is no countermagic to worry about so you'll always have an opportunity to hit a Mom with it before it gets active, not to mention PtE can of course deal with a Knight or Ooze.
Um..actually Thalia is BRUTAL against RUG if you are on the play. Keep in mind their deck plays around 12-13 actual threats which they need to ride to victory and with only 17-18 lands that means she thorns them for basically 1/2 their deck...and as mentioned with only 17-18 lands she can really slow them down. Yes she can't really block profitably (without a sword or active Jitte) but she is still pretty damn good against them. Now, on the play I can see potentially taking her out, given the fact that if they get their 2nd land in play they are pretty solid (and can drop their most expensive threat...Tarmogoyf).Quote:
Originally Posted by kohulk
I'm afraid that it has been pointed out how great thalia can be against RUG. Just a few pages ago.
2 flipped delvers are quite a clock. Kinda natural that ure going to loose this match unless u get very lucky.
But I dont get why ppl keep discussing the match up against RUG. It's not a bad match up after all. I'd be glad to get to play against RUG instead of U/W Miracle, Sneak&Tell or Storm. These are - in my opinion - our worst match ups.
Speaking of which... What are the best cards to board in against sneak and show? There is not really anything in the primer about it so I thought I would ask. If I had 2 cards in the board I could side in and have in my hand if the show and tell what would they be? Is it humility oblivion ring revoker, ensaring bridge. I just want to eliminate the threat or stop them from attacking me. My big problem is when they show and tell progenitus. The big guy hits hard and fast.
2nd question What about u/w miracles. What are the best cards to board in against U/w miracles? Is it 2 choke, 2 krosan grip or do you guys have other cards that you know are very effective in this matchup? I already board in 1 teeg, and protect it with a sword of light and shadow. Thanks guys. Let me know what you think.
Against Sneak and Show, I tend to like more flexible answers like O-ring or Revoker.
Against Uw Choke, Test, Thrun, etc are all good. Thorns are good, especially when stacking with Thalia.
Hi. I've been brewing a list, could I get some advice from people here?
The list:
Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Savannah
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Craddle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures [26]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Terravore
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
Spells [11]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard [15]
2 Krosan Grip
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Oblivion Ring
Maindeck flex slots are: Terravore and Linvala. Sometimes they go out for Sylvan Library #2, or another good singleton, like Sigarda (against Pox and Nic Fit) or Ulvenwald Tracker (against Merfolk and aggro in general). Terravore is there to break clogged boards with his massive body and trample. It's pretty good against RUG, I'd say better than a Knight.
Sideboard flex slots are: Grafdigger's Cage and Gaddock Teeg #2. I hate storm with all my heart, so I've build a pretty hateful sideboard: Thorn of Amethyst, Cannonist, Teeg#2, Needle and Tutors comes for the Swords to Plowshares and weak singletons, like Scryb Ranger.
By the way, Scryb Ranger is really, really fine at the moment. Blocks Delver and Clique like a champ, and untaps Knights for tricks, and Thalia for blocking.
Anyway, my only struggle, is Sneak and Show (as expected). This matchup is pretty bad, and I'd like to fit a Karakas somewhere in the maindeck, whitout messing with the curve. Should I go for the Fetchland #6 or the basic Plains? Moreover, the second Teeg is really necessary? I mean, UW Miracles is on the rise, and it wrecks them pretty bad.
Don't know is second Karakas helps against sneak. Good player will cantrip until having S&T ->Sneak->free mana.
Nice deal vs S&S is Pacekeeper specially when you have fauna shaman.
VS Miracle controls I found that Teeg + Sylvan Safekeeper is a nice combo, first fetching Sylvan Safekeeper then Teeg, second Teeg on SB would be very good if meta is infested by UW Miracles, also nice tries are Needles vs SDT, Miracle Control have problems without it.
I have also some controversive idea vs UW miracles -> Caverns and Chalice of the Void=1, wwithout recursive STP/PTE/Brainstorm UW can't do too much.
I like these approaches Fatal. Good thinking there. I like Tsunami or Armageddon (Tsunami might just be better here).
@Vandalize
I've always enjoyed Terravore in metas where I anticipate a lot of Wastelands. He is indeed a house against RUG. He's very much a dud against control and combo though, and for that reason I often remove him from my list. He's very very good against Stoneblade decks in breaking through Batterskull recursion.
Here is the list I have been brewing and testing:
Main:
Dudes-
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
Spells-
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands-
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gavony Township
4 Windswept heath
1 Karakas
4 Savannah
I like the two Scryb Rangers main. They block delver, add flying, and add tricks with knight.
Sideboard:
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Peacekeeper
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Gut Shot
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
This idea has made me register and actually answer. Finally! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Let me just add a tiny thought to the quotes above. If you consider going the CotV route, do not lose sight of Vexing Shusher. I have surprised many a professional vintage player with CotV and Vexing Shusher and my UW miracle opponent at GP Ghent (where I only ended up 6-2-1) was quite astonished too.
Right now I advise against the eTutor package, but it's still useable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
For your toolbox: Crypt, Cage and Wheel is probably overkill. Especially since you are already packing Bog and a Crop Rotation to find it at instant speed. Cage is the first I'd cut, since it stops your own Zeniths. I would replace him with a CoP: Red. If you play a eTutor toolbox, never go without a card like that. It just single handedly destroys Burn, and it only costs you one slot. Another card always worth tying to fit in is Serenity. That card will win you the Mud, Affinity and Enchantress matchups. Especially the artifacts can be difficult to beat. Last one I'm missing is the Phyrexian Metamorph. Gives you a chance against Show and Tell (not against the Sneak Attack plan, but we have Teeg, Karakas and Needle/Revoker to stop that).
I'm also not a fan of Krosan Grip if you are already playing Oblivion Ring anyway. You could replace them with Path to Exiles, which are always nice to help in the mirror, or against heavy aggro and RUG Delver. I usually board in Paths about 50% of my games, so I never pack less than three in my 75.
So perhaps:
2 Path to Exile
2 Entlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Serenity
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation /15
Or perhaps you could squeeze in a Sylvan Safekeeper. That guy will help protect Teeg and such in the Combo and UW Miracles matchups.
Hey guys I was looking on gatherer and I saw something interesting. What do u guys think of Voidstone Gargoyle against sneak and show...
Linvala, Keeper of Silence does the same thing better.Quote:
Originally Posted by timmycolossus
It does hose sneak attack but so does Revoker and Pithing Needle and they cost way less to cast.
Played Maverick on Sunday SCG DC to a 4-2 finish. Dropped after that as my friend wasn't doing as well and I was tired anyway.
Beat 2 Merfolk and 2 RUG in long, super complicated matches that could have gone either way. Was really satisfying to crush some blue decks. Lost to Esper Stoneblade (not a surprise, it's the matchup I playtested the most and have a lot of trouble with) and lost the mirror due to both luck and not having enough sideboard cards for the mirror (which was stupid, I saw a lot of Maverick).
Looks like combo isn't quite the big bad wolf after all, and the top 16 looks very much like a three ring circus of UW Miracle, Maverick, and RUG Delver.
My List:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scryb Ranger
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sylvan Library
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
4x Wasteland
3x Plains
3x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor
Sideboard:
3x Choke
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Linvala, Keeper of Secrets
MVP of the day by FAR: Scryb Ranger. What a monster of a card. Every match I won, I won on the back of this guy, often barely surviving or pulling off a win the turn before I'm dead on board. Scrybbie and Knight and Mom together beat double flipped Delver on turns 2 and 3, a board of 7 merfolk with multiple lords, etc. Jitte was a house against Merfolk.
Worst card: Fauna Shaman. I never wanted to Zenith for it, drew it once and wished I hadn't, and boarded it out in every matchup except the mirror.
You should thank merfolk for the lack of combo decks showing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
I went 3-1 in the side event and faced two combo decks. The ANT guy in round 2 fucked up his colors of mana in game 2 thanks to a Revoker on lotus petal, and killed himself with a bad Ad Nauseam in game 3 :laugh: Unfortunately my luck didn't quite hold for Belcher, I got to game 3 on the play and had a Turn 2 Thalia, except he went off on Turn 1 :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
But yeah.