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MonoR tends to be more grindy than Rw, so I feel that it's fair to eschew a tempo card for an extra land to 20 in that version. However with Rw, we're a little bit more explosive and kan keep 1-2 land cards depending on the rest as we're more likely to combo earlier. Therefore I'm confident that Jack, and also Greg Smith (great monoR player) does the right thing with the current amounts:
Mono - 20 lands, 4 SSG
Shortcake - 19 Lands, 3 petals, 2 SSG.
Just my 0.2c
I've been talking to jack and we are thinking making shortcake its own thread and letting this one stay mono red. That way we can break up the discussions as I'm not sure it's relevant to keep going over why a splash should be added to the deck. And asentioned above the two decks really do play sufficiently different these days that I would not even attempt to make a stayemt about mono red or play it at this point. I know Jack is of similar mind. We had a good text session while I was getting hammered at a shitty bar in NYC and felt that this may be the best place to take things. Thoughts?
Seth
You should start by posting your work on the ajani version we've spoken about ;)
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Feel like a solid majority of the discussion is about R/W in this thread, with occasional inrows for mono red discussion. Don't really see the need.
Ok so below is the list I have been working on and talking to Jack about. I have really liked how it has played. It def isn't tuned at this time, but a nice starting point. The big differences are the increases in fast mana in the 75, along with the ability to have 4 planewalkers in the maindeck at one time. I will say I am not sure the dislike of Ajani at this time. I have had many positive experiences with him and recommend everyone who plays shortcake to at least test him.
Without further ado:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Goblin Welder
3 pyroblast
3 REB
4 Blood Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magnus of the Moon
3 SSG
1 Jaya Ballard
2 Ajani Vengeant
3 Lotus Petal
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
1 EE
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Plateau
4 fetchlands
4 Mountains
Side:
1 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Firebolt
1 Pyroblast
2 pyroclasm
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
As I mentioned before the sideboard needs grave hate. It's the last thing I add and I will have to shave 4-5 cards from the 75. I have a few ideas but I still want to test some more before I go that route. Overall The deck has performed well. The biggest thing is the idea of increasing the fast mana to more reliably land first turn moons and hate pieces like Canonist first turn in the relevant matches. I really like allowing me to be more explosive when it is needed. The extra walkers have been great against BUG, and MIracles. I have also likes Ajani against Omni Show and Delver. However with the Delver note, more testing needs to be done. There are so many variants and versions I will not go so far as to say it improves that match up yet. i hope to get some more testing in the next 2 weeks to give a better break down of the various forms. Grixis delver still seems rough in my mind, although dropping a quick Ajani in game one does help significantly against Young Pyromancer.
The thought about the thread split was to keep it less cluttered. the two decks are distinctly different anymore. Have the two versions discussed on one thread muddies the waters so to speak when discussing the deck. Shortcake playes shouldn't have to slog through monored discussions and vice versa for that matter. It also makes it easier for newer players as they can read the opening and decide early on what they want to play. The fact that there isn't a consensus at this time I think actually hurts the further development of both versions. Using E tutor fundamentally changes how the deck is constructed and how it answers threats. It makes the lines of play more complicated and less linear along with totally changing sideboard construction. I think these reasons are significant enough to warrant different decks. That, and I hope I am not selling Jack out here, some of us just dont care about the monored list anymore. I'm not trying to be a dick, but we all played it at some point, have moved on to a more powerful, and more consistent shell.
Seth
The Ajani Vengant main is certainly interesting. I think in the current meta, the 1-2 Planeswalkers main is where you want to be. I have been running Maindeck Koth and he has been great everytime he hits the board. I tested against Miracles and Omni Derp and Its a clock every time I get him out. Im also still on running canonist main, as a lot of players in my meta are on Storm and Omni. Ive been also running 2 bridge main and one in the board, but may cut a bridge main and only have 1 in the board for another walker. Ive also seen a lot of lists cutting Revoker.
Wether its Ajani, Chandra, Daretti or Koth its really subjective on which is the best. Its based really on your main and sideboard choices. I think that is why this is such a fun an interesting deck, and why discussion on this deck is always great to hear.
When omnitell started to creep into my meta I went -1 bridge -1 welder up to 8 blasts + canonist in the main and I've found it works very well. So far I have a positive winrate against Omni, but as my opponents become more educated in the matchup they've started to counter the enlightened tutor. There's nothing they can do about a naturally drawn canonist, but if they know what they're doing they will do everything they can to stop you from getting it into your hand.
I'm not a fan of Ajani Vengeant and I don't plan on testing it. I think Koth has always been the best alt wincon for this deck and will always be the best answer to miracles.
If anyone isn't already running 8 blasts I think now more than ever is the time that it's appropriate. The decks to beat right now are Omni, BUG, Grixis, and Miracles, all of which are weak to blast effects. Death and Taxes and Elves have all but disappeared from my local meta.
My local meta is delver variants and a few other niche decks. And then I go to SCG opens and get wrecked by miracles and DnT all day :/Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
I support a thread split. Red plays so much different than shortcake it's crazy. Even though it's just a few cards change. There's no one better than Seth to report on all the history since he's been there since 2008 or whatever it is. I think it will serve the mono red players much better as most of the discussion has need shortcake recently. And red needs the dedicated players to keep talking and testing and for shortcake to do the same. That will keep painter as tuned as it can be.
-jack
Also everyone should peep the new Chandra. Very interesting for our deck.
http://i.imgur.com/mEnnZZp.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
She is certainly interesting. You can tutor her up via recruiter, and her Flip effect is interesting because you can name red with painter to do some damage. I'm not sure if it is a card that makes any of our troublesome match ups better, but she is interesting. A problem I see with her is that her creature side ability that taps to do damage is only to a player, not creatures. You could deal 1 damage with her, blow something up via blast untap and then swing and then flip her.
She is interesting as a tutorable alternate win-con to something like Koth, but flipping her might be difficult at times. I do like that she protects herself when flipped with the -2, which more or less kills everything but Goyf/Tasigur/Gurmag Angler/Serra Avenger that might be threatening her. The emblem is certainly attainable in Bridge scenarios, and also just as game-ending as Koth's for the most part.
Personally, I'm really disappointed. I was really hoping for good abilities...I mean a planeswalker you can search up with recruiter? That's fantastic. But she is unfortunately pretty irrelevant. I don't think she is playable.
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I don't know... we already play jaya that sometimes feels clunky and has much better abilities than chandra's creature side.
Flipping chandra could be a problem too because we don't have a very high density of red spells, and the ones we hold in hand (blasts) don't want to be cast casually just to flip this planeswalker ... naming red with painter is certainly possible but not ideal.
The main problem i see, though, is that an alternative win condition should be hard to deal with, while chandra dies to everything.
The fact that she can be tutored is obviously a very big plus so she deserves some testing to see if she's worth a slot in the 75.
100% agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Chandra would have been much better if the transform was a 'may' trigger. In that case, you could just painter servant for red and dump spells for a bunch of damage, then flip it on the last spell you play and +1 it.
You can squeeze 6 damage out of chandra at the most in one turn. Play 2 spells, attack, +1. Still pretty nice but you have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it work.
Nissa, on the other hand, is crazy good. Let's hope the white one (Ajani?) will be good.
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The white one will be Gideon
While I agree that chandra is pretty shitty I would disagree on breaking things up forum wise.
We would just be telling people to "go to other forum". If your on the miracles forum there is always debates about legends vs ponder etc... I'd say it's part of the deck. Things that I would say warrant another Forum would be: the inclusion of blue or no imperial recuiter.
As for ajani, I will give him a try. I could see it being quite good if your opponent got out something before you Mooned them. Also blowing up lands is something I love to do.
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Whoa whoa whoa. When did we get off the divining top train. This has been a staple of the deck since inception.Quote:
Originally Posted by sroncor1
At face value we are trading options for threats (e.g. planeswalkers). However if I wanted to have threats and no options I would play MUD. Please elaborate seth.
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Whoops, just an oversight 2 SDT are still in the deck. Sorry.
Seth
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
If you count his list its missing two cards, presumably they are tops
So it's official... Both the red and white new transformational planeswalkers are completely unplayable. Disappointing.
They're playable. Just not in this deck, just not in legacy.
I agree, I have doubts that Chandra is playable, but she is worth testing. A tutorable 3 mana planeswalker still bears testing as the potential is there. The difference between 3 and 4 mana is huge. Just not sure the hoops you need to jump through make it worthwhile. Although I will say, her flipped version is nice.
seth
Forgot to ask is anyone planning on going to the premier IQ in Indianapolis on sunday? i think its about time a painter does well again (which should be every tournament)
I wanted to. But am probably not going to be. I may be going to SCG Chicago next month however and playing in the Sunday event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uroborian
Another tutorable target:
http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/p...irannalaar.jpg
Probably still not good enough, but interesting.
I like this dude. Art blows but whatever most new stuff sucks. The synergy this guy has with our entire deck is off the charts. Recruitable, double welder fodder, chumpblockers, flyers to block delver, harass walkers, removal, direct damage, junk artifact recycling, favorable stompy mana cost.
I'll for sure try testing one out, probably board.
The double red might be rough.
Seriously brah? We're playing Moon.dec, red mana is the least of our concerns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Were already running jaya and koths. It's not a problemQuote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I agree, this cheesy couple might be a great way to buy time against a number of aggro strategies.
Ooh yeah, I'll be swinging with this couple. I really like the look of them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not married to them yet, but I do like what they are putting out.
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So is there a real reason why this deck has fallen off of the wagon as of late?
Omnitell and Miracles are not among the decks best matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
I actually think Miracles is a positive match up to be honest. I've been messing with my Painter list a bunch over he past month but it def feels like a match up that is closer to 60 percent in your favor. I think a bunch of people's struggles are two fold. They have misbuilt the deck and/or sideboard so as to not be able to gain a strategic advantage games 2-3. The other issue is that I still feel most pilots of he deck do not prioritize lines of attack and play sequences properly bc they make the mistake of what is important in any match up.
In my eyes he favorable match ups are:
Miracles
bug
Dredge
Rwu
Tendrils
Elves
Lands
Blade variants
50/50
Mono blue Omnitel
Bad
Burn
Ur delver
Sneak and show
Ru Omnitel
Seth
I used to play this deck a ton, and it's probably still my favorite "real" deck (most of the other stuff I play nowadays is pretty fringe in comparison). I had to stop playing it during the Treasure Cruise era as the UR Delver matchup was stone-cold unwinnable. After the banning of Treasure Cruise and the upswing of Dig Through Time, we have a meta dominated by Miracles (never was a great matchup due to Moon resistance, Counterbalance, etc.) and Omnitell (I've never played this matchup, but considering this deck is a more powerful High Tide that happens to have maindeck Emrakul, it should be legit awful. I never lost a match to Painter in my High Tide days.) Until the meta shifts to a more midrange/Delver focused meta, I don't think this deck will be well-positioned. If Dig Through Time gets the banhammer - as I believe it will - then this deck will have a chance to shine again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manroe
@sroncor1
Hi,
I don’t understand how the miracle MU could be a good MU… Sroncor, give your secret. Perhaps your list is different.
During my last tournament (5 rounds), I played 3 miracles and a Omnishow – a bad luck day – and it was really hard against Miracle.
My list is nearly the same as Kaps’s one.
My side against miracle is +1 Vexing susher, +1 Duergar, +2 Koth.
What’s your stategy plan to beat this deck ? What’s your sideboarding plan ?
I chose to play now an Explosives, to give me more chance to break counterbalance
Yeah I defiantly agree with Seth that miracles is definitely a positive match up, at least from my experiences too. I would say I have at least a 70% win rate against it. Though I highly disagree with the 50/50 with Omni Tell, that match up is horrid, I would rather play Sneak and Show any day of the week over omni.