[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

2 P2E

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After seeing this deck in action at the GP, and doing some minor playtesting with it, I also want to squeeze in a pair of Paths to the main. I play two in the board and always seem to board them in. I've haven't come to a solid conclusion on what to cut from my list; I don't want any less than 3 Decree, 2 Elspeth, and 3 sweepers.

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7 basics seems to be >format right now

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I run seven as well. Here's my manabase:

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4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland

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15 blue sources and 14 white. Seven basics have been fantastic for me. After Zendikar, I plan on playing 2 Marsh Flats and 1 Delta, since white producing lands are more important against decks that attack landstill's manabase, and I only play two Counterspells so UU is less relevant. When I've been playtesting recently I've had a bunch of situations where I looked at a Delta in mine hand and said "I wish this found a basic Plains". Also, I only play B spells in the board, which is why I only have two lands that produce B. I have a total of 9 black sources, which is usually what most people run.

Has anyone tested Ravenous Trap as a Cunning Wish target? I'm really intrigued by it:

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Ravenous Trap
2:b::b:
Instant - Trap Uncommon
If an opponent had three or more cards put into his or her graveyard from anywhere this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Ravenous Trap's mana cost.
Exile all cards from target player's graveyard.

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It seems better than Extirpate against Dredge and aggro loam, and it doesn't force you to fetch a land that produces B.

Ravenous Trap is an amazing Wish target. Also, with the addition of Top, we can hide Ravenous Traps on Top of our library, protecting it from cards like Unmask and Cabal Therapy. Of course, we only need one. Running three wishes is more than enough to compensate for it against a deck like Ichorid. Also, not having to fetch a black source using a fetchland is another huge plus.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I could write a detailed explanation why I think it's perfect in Landstill and why I think it's so powerful. At the end of the day though, those that are willing to run it will and those that won't, well, won't.
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Honestly this would probably help me out a lot. I've just recently decided to pick up the deck and after reading huge chunks of this thread I'm still very on the fence about which direction to take my build.

Unfortunately I'm not sure there's a solid answer to: "Should I run: Vindicate, Cunning Wish, CB/Top, or some combination?" Aside from maybe trying each of them out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding most people either run CB in the side or they run Cunning Wish main, but not usually both, and CB main deck is a rarity?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding most people either run CB in the side or they run Cunning Wish main, but not usually both, and CB main deck is a rarity?

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Correct.

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Honestly this would probably help me out a lot.

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I've actually been asked by someone to make a Primer for the deck, because it plays so much drastically from other Landstill lists, and it's matchup percentages are significantly different. Considering Ultimate Walker has its own thread, this seems justifiable. So if you can wait a little bit while I write up a Primer and post U/W Counterbalance Landstill as a new entity, you'll have a detailed explanation of the deck, as well as alot of other content to include.

I've been piloting the deck for about 6 months now, so I should have enough data to compile a solid Primer. The only issue is time; I'm a self contracted salesman for insurance and timeshare so I work alot. I hope to have the Primer up as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman

Since i'm not running top my gut feeling tells me its better that i run cop red over cb against sligh, plus its helpful against goblins too

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Also, just wanted to say, CoP: Red is getting shittier cuz Pridemages and Grips make it look like crap. That's one thing that makes Counterbalance better than CoP: Red.

Everyone, please disregard the following post. This is a reply to Mossivo. The PM would not allow me to send more than 5000 characters and this is 13000 something characters long. Once Mossivo has read this and replied to me in PM, I will delete this post. I did not include quote tags in this post, so some of it will not make sense to you. Then again, it's not supposed to. Everyone but Mossivo, please disregard the following post.

I'll try to answer the personal questions and limit the deck related questions in this PM. I'll address in greater detail the deck related questions in my primer, which are good points that I'm glad you brought up. I will use those questions to strengthen the primer. If you have more of those, feel free to PM me those so I have more information to include in the primer.

To begin.

First off, I've played other decklists of Landstill as well. So I'm not limited in scope to only playing one version of Landstill. What I was getting at was that I've played the exact same maindeck for 6 months now, so it's not like I've only had 1 week playing it one way, then changing it to another way. I've got concrete playtesting results from that specific configuration, which was my point. If 6 months isn't enough time to develop something, then I don't know what is.

I personally talk over decks with members here on The Source as well. I was not discrediting you about Landstill, nor your teamates. However, you are discrediting me.

Just because you've used Counterbalance in the sideboard, or have tried it in the past, does not change the fact that you haven't used it in the shell I'm using it in. This may be a reason why your perception of it is slightly different than mine.

Why are you now attacking me on tournament results? I don't have the means to go to lots of tournaments to attempt to place. Regardless, I've seen horrible decklists (and this doesn't apply to just Landstill) make Top 8 and I've seen great decklists near the bottom of tournament ladders. This isn't always a direct representation of the decklist itself, but rather takes into account multiple other factors like pilot playskill, matchup pairings, so on and so forth. The more impacting statement a particular decklist can make, IMO, is making Top 8 (or close to the top in large tournaments), with horrible matchup pairings throughout the entire tournament. Again, there is still playskill involved even in that scenario, so basing it purely on the strength of the particular decklist is still difficult to determine simply off of tournament results.

The difference between experience and ideology does not have to directly corrolate to tournaments.

Ideology means someone thinks about something, writes it down on paper, and thinks it looks good on paper and should work out well in theory.

Experience means that the deck has been played against live opponent's over and over in ones spare time enough that common Tier 1 and Tier 2 matchups have been played. Especially when multiple different opponent's are being tested against with the same decks, so that it cannot be determined that certain matchups were won/lost because of the opponent's playskill. This does not need to be done solely through tournament play to be a real representation.

I can agree that developing better playskill is done by playing in high stakes settings like important tournaments, but actual deckbuilding is just as effectively done through extensive playtesting against a wide variety of opponent's using common Tier 1 and Tier 2 decklists over and over, tournament or not. When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing." Think in terms of sports for a second; playtesting is to practice as tournaments are to the game. You don't get better at the sport only when playing in the game, you get better at the sport by going to lots of practices.

I don't care if you think I'm making a Landstill look alike or not. If it has manlands and it has Standstill, it's a Landstill variant. Not all posted variants are any good, but don't simply dismiss something just because you don't want to accept radical change.

Now we have the deck related questions, which I'll try to keep limited for now:

Yes, those matchups are improved. So are many other matchups.

I fail to see how Merfolk now becomes punted, considering I do very well against Merfolk. Counterbalance itself doesn't hit two of their lords and Wakethrasher if they run it, but it hits everything else. The only foil is Vial, which is typically a must counter or must O Ring preboard, and of course postboard there are more answers. I'll address this matchup more in the primer.

Goblins preboard is not improved by Counterbalance. There are a few targets for it, but for the most part they are bundled up at the 3cc spot. However, the U/W manabase that I run makes up for my deficencies in many of the matchups where Counterbalance isn't so hot, like Goblins and Dragon Stompy, which does in fact improve those matchups. Again, Vial is something you want to answer quickly. Otherwise, the deck has enough removal and Decree/Elspeth to handle Goblins. Not so hot preboard, sure, but postboard with BEB and PtE it's a serious beating. More on this matchup in the primer too.

I 100% disagree with you about Threshold. I rape Threshold. Countless amount of times does this happen.

Tempo Thresh is improved by the U/W manabase and their low threat density is met by a large number of removal spells. If they don't tempo you early, you win by being the control deck. Considering that I run a more stable manabase and 4 Brainstorm/Top, I'm able to reach enough land to play through their Stifles/Wastes/Dazes. Counterbalance is huge here because if I resolve CounterTop, that's typically game, barring them topdecking into a bounce spell (since they cannot cast cantrips). More on this matcup later, as I'll go over it more.

(Factory and WoG answer Goose, btw)

CounterTop Thresh is again, a beating. This deck runs cards out of their CB range, where most of their cards are in my CB range. CounterTop is able to be played through and I also run answers to it. They play a slower game and I have a stronger control suite. The biggest bomb they have against me is CounterTop, and I'm fighting fire with fire. If they resolve a CounterTop, it makes the matchup harder for me; if I resolve a CounterTop, it's usually game. Postboard they have Grips, I have O Rings, which sure, Grip is better. But alot of times even they do Grip my Counterbalance, they are too far out of the game to come back. I generate far more card advantage than they do. I won't go into this in any more detail than that because that's already too long of an answer; you'll get more in the primer.

I never said Dreadstill was simply an oops deck, I said that it has a disruptable I-win combo. It makes use of Counterbalance well because it protects the combo, but does not mean without it that it's not disruptable and that other decks don't have just as much to gain from running Counterbalance. I'll address this deck (Dreadstill) more later.

Decks like Thresh and Dreadstill don't run Counterspell because they curve out early and don't intend on hitting enough land drops or sitting back to be able to have UU open to cast Counterspell. That's why Daze is good here. Flip this around for a moment; if Daze is so good in those decks, why don't we run it? Exactly. Landstill a control deck and they are aggro/control. We are able to leave UU open to counter things, we play draw go when the board is clear. They don't. Don't try to compare why Counterspell is good/bad in Landstill to why it's good/bad in Threshold; that's comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. That is absolutely a piss pour argument.

You can compare my Counterspell to Thresh's Tarmogoyf all you want. Landstill is designed as a reactive deck, not a proactive one. That's why we have Counterspell for that Goyf, but that's also why we have Swords to Plowshares for that Goyf. They play threats, we counter with answers. Generally, we have more answers than they have threats, and that's why it's an effective strategy. One of the major reasons this works is because, a) we run more answers than they play threats, and b) we have enough card advantage to power through their answers to our answers. Without Counterbalance they play a 1-for-1 game while we have multiple avenues to get 2-for-1 (or greater) trades.

Spell Snare can cause tempo loss, sure. It's going to do the same thing to other Landstill lists too. You're acting like my dependance on 2cc is dramatically higher than everyone else. If you play 4 Standstill 3 Counterspell, you're running 5 less 2cc spells. The question of how much tempo I lose is relevant to the gamestate. Considering that the way Threshold wins (CounterTop aside) is through creatures, and that none of my creature removal is 2cc, I don't think the loss of tempo is quite that serious. I mean, if I Counterspell their Nimble Mongoose or Rhox War Monk and they Spell Snare me, you're Spell Snare (i.e Spell Snare run by you, Landstill player) wasn't doing shit anyways. At least my Counterbalance (if it's in play) can counter their Spell Snare on my Counterspell.

This deck is Landstill. Of course the aggro matchups are good matchups. If they are 1cc-2cc centric like Goyf Sligh and Zoo, Counterbalance is great. If they are Vial based Tribal, I bring in an assload of removal from the sideboard. If they are red based aggro, BEB is there; remember that my sideboard consists of 1 WoG, 2 ORing, 4 PtE, and 4 BEB. The only matchups where Counterbalance isn't optimal against is Vial Tribal (Merfolk and Goblins), where Vial is bad vs any Landstill list regardless, and Merfolk does in fact have many cards in the 1cc and 2cc range.

Again, I'm also running the U/W manabase and 4 Brainstorm/Top (to dig for land and removal) to make up for Counterbalances mediocre-ness against Vial Tribal preboard (I purposely designed the deck to counteract flaws in other ways).

I'm not overloaded as badly on 2cc drops as you think, to need to over-protect against Daze, and regardless, I fail to see how 2cc drops are worse than 3cc drops like Cunning Wish and Vindicate or 4cc drops like Elspeth and WoG. That particular argument vs Counterbalance Landstill is just as relevant against other Landstill lists. In fact, I often to wait till I have 3 mana to drop Counterbalance if I see my opponent is playing blue, and I use my mana on turn 2 to either hold open UU to play Counterspell or do whatever... Daze on turn 2 Standstill is just as relevant as Daze on turn 2 Counterbalance anyway. I'll be humble though, since this is all a comparison with your Spell Snares anyway; yes, my turn 2 Counterspell/Counterbalance can be Daze'd if I try to Counterspell Goyf or resolve Counterbalance, where your Spell Snare is unmolested. Luckily, I do run StP and FoW.

(Keep in mind that my Counterbalances are simply replacing your Spell Snares... and I truly believe that the tempo you create off of Spell Snare is not worth the power trade off from my Counterbalance. Also keep in mind that Spell Snare only effects 2cc spells, which Counterbalance also handles in 2cc spells as well as 0cc, 1cc, 4cc, and sometimes 3cc or 5cc. So you saying Counterbalance is bad vs Goblins is no different than me telling you that Spell Snare is bad vs Goblins)

I'm not much worried about EE. Recurring EE is a different story, and I'll agree with you that it can be very problematic. Not gonna argue about that, you're right. It blows up my Decree and Elspeth tokens, my Counterbalances, and my O Rings. I don't see recurring EE that often and usually it takes so long for that lock to get setup that I've CounterTop lock'd and/or won the game before that happens (in the case of CounterTop lock, I realize that EE removes it; I mean that I'm so far ahead by that point that even removing the CounterTop lock doesn't bring them back into the game). Factory (+ Elspeth if possible) is my means of beating recurring EE. Or simply O Ring'ing it early if the opponent can't cast and pop it right away and does drop it early (happens once in a great while). Again, I agree with you here.

How is Counterbalance not universal? It answers all spells 0cc, 1cc, and 2cc... it sometimes answers 3cc, 4cc, and 5cc spells. Your Spell Snares answer 2cc spells. Your Vindicates can meet my O Rings since they fill the same role, and I could just as easily splash black to replace them but I have my reasoning for why I prefer a more consistent U/W manabase.

If you want me to answer why my deck is better than Threshold or Dreadstill, when all I'm doing is replacing Spell Snare with Counterbalance, I'm going to ask you the same damn question. Do you really think you benefit more from the tempo of Spell Snare than I do from the power of Counterbalance? What makes Spell Snare better in Landstill than it does in Tempo Thresh and often in Dreadstill? Almost every single question you keep asking me is applicable to every other Landstill list, not just mine. Do you not see the falacy in most of your arguments against Counterbalance?

I completely disagree with you when you say that both Threshold and Dreadstill have more answers for a larger variety of decks than my Landstill. Landstill is a control deck, and rather than running aggro to play beatdown, runs more control to answer a larger variety of decks. Again, this comes down to being one of those arguments that you are making that applies not only to my version of Landstill, but all Landstill, and is a very idiotic question in the first place.

You're looking at this the wrong way maybe.

What we have are some very small differences.

I believe Top is the best card in the deck, so I run 4. You probably run less and some other draw instead.

I had to slightly tweak my curve to accomodate Counterbalance, so a few numbers (like Counterspell being a 4-of) are set to accomodate this. This is also the reason I run 4 Standstill rather than 3 Standstill 1 Jace.

You believe Spell Snare > Counterbalance, I 100% disagree. I feel that Counterbalance is a powerhouse of a card and offers to Landstill everything Landstill wants; card advantage, repeatable countermagic, and a card that carries you straight from the mid game to the late game (and occasionally even from the early game to the late game). You feel that Spell Snare is necessary for early tempo to survive you into the mid game where you feel that you have adequate enough control elements to make it to the late game.

You can keep coming at me with objections/rebuttals all day, I'll keep coming back at you. If you wanna help me rather than hinder me, just ask relevant questions about the deck itself, particularly about certain cards or matchups so that I can add more, better, detailed info to my primer.

Anyways, don't take any of my reply as a personal attack. Hopefully this can spawn positive and productive innovation. And please, if you get the time to be able to do so, play my decklist for a little bit, even if it's just on MWS. I've played the Spell Snare versions and other versions of Landstill, and I think it would make for better discussions between the two of us if you could playtest my list, even for just a miniscule amount of time, as well. I appreciate it. =]

Everyone, please disregard the following post. This is a reply to Mossivo. The PM would not allow me to send more than 5000 characters and this is 13000 something characters long. Once Mossivo has read this and replied to me in PM, I will delete this post. I did not include quote tags in this post, so some of it will not make sense to you. Then again, it's not supposed to. Everyone but Mossivo, please disregard the following post.

wow i actually read the whole thing. I have to agree that i think counterbalance can be pretty good in the proper variant of landstill. Even though it's been the engine for aggro control i believe that it can also be a powerful control piece for a pure control deck like landstill. I don't think spell snare and counterbalance are comparable though. I feel that spell snare is situational and can be used well against decks like merfolk with key 2 drops, thus hindering their tempo. Counterbalance on the other hand feels like a piece in a puzzle that's there to finally lock out the opponent, with wraths and other spells doing what counterbalance does not.

I think that there's a lot of potential for both versions of landstill to do well. They're just variants that do things differently but in the end we just want to win

Hanni, if you make primer for your u-w landstill, could you write some sideboarding plans against decks you usually see = tier 1 / some tier 2 decks. Thanks! :)

@ whiteshepherdman

Counterbalance and Spell Snare are comparable. The spot in the deck that both are run in are competing spots; you don't run both.

Both have advantages and disadvantages. What needs to be determined are the pros for each and the cons, and which one has more pros and less cons. This is easier said than actually applied.

The biggest factor to consider here is what matchups does each help, and which matchup does each not help. For a quick example, Counterbalance improves Aggro Loam and Goyf/Sligh Burn. Spell Snare improves Merfolk and Threshold. But Spell Snare improves Goyf Sligh/Burn too, and Counterbalance improves Threshold too. This is when it gets tricky. If they both improve the matchup, which one improves it more? What matchups are more important to be improved than others?

I feel like, between a 2/3 game set, that my Merfolk matchup is awesome. For that, I don't see why maindeck Counterbalance is so bad. I feel like, without Counterbalance maindeck, that my Aggro Loam matchup in a 2/3 set is horrible. +1 for Counterbalance. (This is only 1 such example out of hundreds of examples.)

These kind of distinctions are very in depth, and cover way too much playing field to explain in only a little detail.

What I do know, is that throughout my playtesting, I've found greater success in maindeck Counterbalance than anything else I've ever tried. I've found that U/W Counterbalance Landstill (specifically) has been the most consistent, most powerful deck I've ever played in Legacy. What mind boggles me is that no one, aside from Citrus-God aka Anti-American and very few others, has even acknowledged that the deck is even decent, let alone very strong. I keep hearing nothing but skepticism and negative feedback.

Hopefully when I finish the primer, which is like 5% done and is already 6 Word pages long, it'll be able to get some attention and some thorough feedback. Hopefully people start to actually playtest with it. I'm sure once they do, they'll realize that it is a contender, and get played some. I don't get to play in tournaments, so I can't put up results myself. Hopefully some people pilot it somewhere, and if they are halfway decent, I know it will place. Once that happens, I'll feel much better about my time investment with the deck. That's my goal, and I'm gonna see it through.

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Hanni, if you make primer for your u-w landstill, could you write some sideboarding plans against decks you usually see = tier 1 / some tier 2 decks. Thanks! :)

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I plan on including it all. Every last bit. If anyone has anything they want me to address in the primer, feel free to let me know. Negative/constructive criticism is very welcome at this point, since I want to address everything.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I plan on including it all. Every last bit. If anyone has anything they want me to address in the primer, feel free to let me know. Negative/constructive criticism is very welcome at this point, since I want to address everything.

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That would be very nice. When i pick a new deck, there goes quite a bit time when i do right decisions when sideboarding against different decks. So that sideboard guide will be helpful. What is your bad matchups? I guess dredge before sideboarding and b-x decks what plays discard and manadenial? Goblins could be hard to handle if they get fast enought start too..

The worst matchup is Dredge. They can play straight through everything I run and make a lethal 2/2 army. My spells are mostly worthless against them. I accept that it is a bad matchup. I don't even bother with graveyard hate in the sideboard, because it is literally the only matchup I bring graveyard hate in for. I typically bring in Path to Exile and Meddling Mage. My reasoning here is that Path to Exile + Swords to Plowshares answer Ichorid nicely (and Putrid Imp's and Narcomoeba's too). If they have no guys to get 2/2 tokens for, they can't get 2/2 tokens. Meddling Mage names Cabal Therapy so that they have no sac outlets to make 2/2 tokens and so they cannot rape my hand. They also put up a clock and can block to destroy bridges (or I can WoG them if I live long enough). Pray to god they get some slow draws or have to mulligan to 4, because this is the worst matchup.

B/x decks aren't horrible matchups, but they aren't excellent ones either. As a control deck, you value the cards in hand and your lands in play. It depends on what kind of B/x deck you're playing against. If it's control, I've found it to be a solid matchup. If it's aggro/control (Wasteland/Sinkhole/Vindicate/Stifle), you have to hope you don't fall into landscrew before you can answer their guys. If you make it past the early turns, you'll typically win because their disruption becomes less effective and you have access to the rest of your removal. CounterTop is strong here, removal obviously, and Elspeth is a bad ass. I'll list more about this when I can.

Goblins is rough preboard. You have limited answers to turn 1 Vials and Lackey's, and those are both very bad for us to not answer. Surviving the intital rush is mandatory but not always possible. If we make it to the late game, cards like Elspeth, Decree, and Wrath of God are very valuable. Countering any card advantage guys they have is very important; Ringleader, Wort, and even Matron. Keep your removal aimed on Piledriver's and mana cheaters (Frogtosser/Warchief) to slow them down. Not gonna sugar coat it, the matchup is difficult preboard. Winnable, but difficult. Postboard, with Counterbalance coming out for BEB, and 2 Standstills coming out for 2 Path to Exile, we have a total of 10 1cc spot removal spells. Makes the matchup very easy. I've been considering squeezing in Oblivion Rings instead of PtE to handle Vial, but I'm on the fence with. 10 1cc spot removal spells is so delicious that I've been finding great success with it.

Other than that, there's no glaring weaknesses. That's what makes the deck so great. You can 2-0 Aggro Loam. You can 2-0 Burn. You can 2-0 Goyf Sligh. You can 2-0 Zoo. You can 2-0 Threshold variants. You can 2-0 combo. All of these were previously not so good. Merfolk, between a 2/3 game set, I've done very well against, same goes for decks like Survival and Dragon Stompy. However, rather than make what some may be thinking as outlandish claims, I'd rather just explain everything in the primer all at one time so I don't exhaust all of my energy. It could take me some time to write it up, but I'm going to dedicate alot of spare time to it. I promise I won't disappoint.

Hanni, if I were you I'd edit out those parts of your earlier post that are in bold, it's worth reading and I feel like the discussion present would benefit the thread. Don't keep the best discussion to yourselves guys! Just keep it civil.

BTW, you're right about the slot that CB takes, I thought it was counterspell for so long, but it's definitely the Spell Snare slot. When I was debating the slots with myself I came to the same conclusion, though I do like spell snare for various reasons, I agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Hanni, if I were you I'd edit out those parts of your earlier post that are in bold, it's worth reading and I feel like the discussion present would benefit the thread. Don't keep the best discussion to yourselves guys! Just keep it civil.

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I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.

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Way back, with that like UWg build. It was an interesting deck, but it really died out for a while. Like the last year.

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I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.

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It's directed towards Moss as a response to a PM he sent me, and I couldn't fit it in the PM because it was too long. I really wanted him to read it, so I posted it on here. The semi-flaming isn't a personal attack towards him, his beliefs, or even his viewpoints. I was simply responding in the same tone that the original PM's were sent to me in, and he also clearly stated that he meant no intentional flaming. I'm not angry, and I'm sure he's not angry.

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I was rolling on Adderall last night/this morning and I had an epiphany. I was taking a break from writing the U/W Counterbalance Landstill primer and decided to playtest a new deck I just designed, a variation of U/G/b Intuition Loam. For reference, the decklist can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...34&postcount=1

I modeled the deck directly after my U/W Counterbalance Landstill deck, adding some elements of ITF and some elements of Aggro Loam. It plays a very similar gameplan, except it's more powerful and has more answers to stuff, but has less overall consistency and is alot slower.

Anyways, I know now why people are playing with Spell Snares, extra Path's in the main, and cutting Counterspells. It's because of your manabases (and your lowered count of Brainstorms/Tops).

I played 10 straight games against Canadian Thresh with the U/G/b Intuition Loam deck. I won 6 and lost 4, and the 6 that I won were so very close; many games I was at 3 or less life and would have died the next turn (a few games I was brought down to 1 life). The games I did lose were complete shut outs by my opponent.

Take this hypothetical scenario for a moment (which does occur quite frequently):

You're playing either 3c or 4c Landstill and your opponent is playing Canadian Thresh. Your opponent goes first and plays a Tropical Island and passes the turn. On your turn, you play a fetchland which is met by Stifle (you play the fetchland because all you have are nonbasic lands in hand, whether duals or colorless producers). You pass the turn, the opponent plays a Volcanic Island and casts Tarmogoyf, which you have no FoW for. On your turn, you play a Tundra and pass the turn. On your opponent's turn, he casts Ponder, and then Wastes your Tundra. In response, you StP the Goyf but StP is met by Daze. The opponent swings for 3, and passes the turn. The opponent is sitting on 3 lands and you're at 0. That WoG and EE in hand are useless to you right now, and your stumbling to assemble your manabase. Counterspell is worthless for you, let alone Counterbalance. By the time you stabilize the manabase, you're already dead.

NOW I see why people are increasing their amount of early tempo cards in their 3c and 4c lists. You simply cannot keep up with decks like Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, and probably even Goblins. Counterbalance will never work in a 3c or 4c list effectively against these strategies, at least not as well as Spell Snare or Path to Exile, so on and so forth.

I've tried 3c Counterbalance Landstill long ago, and just shifted to 2c through time without noticing it because it improved the deck. I didn't realize that the current metagame pressures were the reason why everyone disliked Counterbalance so much. I cannot believe I didn't see this before. It's the manabase! Worst part is, most of the 3c and 4c decks aren't even running the full 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top, which are essential for early manabase stabilization.

The U/W manabase allows the deck to run 4 Counterspells and 4 Counterbalances without nearly as much consequence. With 7 basics and only two color sources necessary to provide for, you shrug off this Stifle/Waste/Daze combination. You almost always have more than 1 basic in your opener, and with Brainstorm/Top to dig for more, you can play seemlessly through the first several turns of the game before needing to drop Factory, Tundra, or a fetchland. The ability to ramp up mana faster through manabase hate is why Counterspell works well for me, and why I have no problems getting early Counterbalances into play. Of course Spell Snare still hits these, but it's so much less of a blow when I can come back with StP, O Ring... hell, even WoG. My U/W manabase transitions me easily into the mid game, where I then take full control with CounterTop, WoG, Elspeth, so on and so forth. In 3c and 4c lists, you can't even get there without the aid of Spell Snare and often Path to Exile's in addition to Swords to Plowshares.

(I'm seriously having a breakthrough right now.)

The manabase strength doesn't even stop there. Against decks like Aggro Loam, Team America, and even other matchups, you cannot understand how much these matchups dramatically change by something as simple as running 2c rather than 3c. It's not even the number of basics, since many 3c lists do in fact run 4 basics. It's that fact that you don't need to try to assemble all 3 colors, sometimes double of a certain color, with nothing but basics. It's that fact that with only 4 basics of 3 different colors, you often have the wrong color basic in your opener for what you need and are heavily reliant on fetchlands to grab the right basics. Then, when you do have to play that Undeground Sea turn 2 or fetchland turn 3 so that you can play Vindicate on turn 3, they hit you with Wasteland or Stifle and your black source is gone again.

Landstill's biggest obstacle to overcome, as a control deck, is to make it to the mid-late game where it has enough lands and colored mana sources to cast its powerful cards, where it simply wins by overpowering and out-card-advantaging its opponent's. How can that even be accomplished when it's stumbling to build up it's manabase against the deck that attack it? No wonder U/W/r Walkerstill has become mildly successful; it's spells operate on a slightly lower curve!

I now see why the naysayers have hated Counterbalance in Landstill for so long. First it was the fact that the curve wasn't good enough; until decks like ITF and even new CounterTop Thresh dropped their curves down to around 12/12 1cc/2cc (which is what I also run). Then, the metagame shifted, and tempo manabase denial strategies started to tear through the metagame. After that, it became a matter of unplayability in the 3c and 4c lists.

So in summarization, the difference between 2c and 3c or 4c is two parts, a) total number of lands you can put into play early, and b) access to the correct color sources early.

I truly and honestly believe that, in this metagame, rather than run cards like Path to Exile and Spell Snare maindeck just to make it to the midgame, that the manabase should simply be U/W. Toss in Counterbalance, and no wonder [Counterbalance Landstill] works so well for me and not for others. Honestly, how many players saying no to Counterbalance actually tested my exact decklist, and how many playtested it in their 3c and 4c lists?

Anyway, I have a whole lot more to say about a whole lot more topics, but that's what Adderall does. If anyone wants to chat me up on yahoo messenger while I'm online before I go to work, it's fiendish_nature86

Let's talk Landstill!

I agree in most part with Hanni.

Most meta features deck like Canadian, Merfolk et Goblin/Zoo.
All are fast and most of them run mana disruption such as stifle, wasteland, rishadan port.

For a deck like Landstill to perform, obviously we need to get to 4+ mana as soon as possible. For that to work, I've always played 6+ basic lands deck. Obviously, when you are playing 3c, playing that many basics can hurt. That's why we need "mana fixer"

I play 4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
1 crucible of worlds
1 eternal dragon

SDT is probably the best cards in the MU where you are getting disrupted.

COW and Eternal Dragon both serve to stabilize Manabase. I am still hesitating between 2 cow and 0 dragon, but I have found both to have their advantage. Most people disregard E.Dragon as a kill condition. But let me tell you that in the VERY late game, that guy can come in handy. Especially in the mirror match up or when both decks are in top-deck mode. E.Dragon usually wins me 1 game in every tournament (and I can't count the number of time where him fetching a plain saved my ass!)
Edragon costs 2 mana to get a plain
COW cost 3 mana to get you a land.
Cow can be destroyed.
Edragon can be stifled.

But I disgress. I wanted to know if Hanni could post his list, as it does seem interesting


Lets not forget CB also drastically improve Combo MU for LAndstill :) But I'm wondering if the loss of Black (Vindicate) could hurt the control mirror. And overall, Vindicates are usually very good at answering any threat. They can serve as a creature removal, planeswalker removal, or as a tempo gain by destroying lands of an opponnent already light on mana.

Robert

U/W Counterbalance Landstill
Kaezurstill

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tundra
4 [7E] Island (3)
3 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

The 1 WoG in the sideboard could potentially be 1 Humility.

Whats the argument for no Wasteland? That's the only thing that seems crazy out of place to me. I like to be better than other decks under an early Standstill, Wasteland is usually a big part of that.

All those 4's look like it should at least be consistent.

The first thing that struck me when considering your list is
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

The lack of EE. I can understand that EE @ 2 can be pretty weak (you don't have access to a third colour). In my 3c landstill, EE is gold.

Most list run
4 stp
2-3 wog
2-3 EE
0-2 vindicate
0-1 humility.

for a total of about 10-12 removal md.
I feel your list might lack of answers to board. (Or at least, lack of versatility. Most, if not all your removals are aimed at creatures. O-Ring gives you some versatility, but that's it)

How do you feel about running 0 Wasteland?
Merfolk deck, imo, is one of my hardest MU.
You get an improvement in Mana base because of 2c (but my black is only a small splash).
You run more basics 7 vs my 6, but you run 8 fetches, vs my 6. Does this open a vulnerability to stifle and life loss?
You lose EE, so almost no answer to turn 1 Aether vial.

I think you said that it was a good MU for you. Am I correct? If so, how?

Linked to the fact that you run 0 wasteland, how good can you abuse Standstill in the MU where opponents have man land?
No fact or fiction? Is it because you want to keep the curve low?


Looking at your sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

I see 7 more removal (and 4 more for red based deck). My guess are that WOG and PTE are best against aggro deck. While Oblivion ring is best in control and aggro/control.
You have 0 graveyard removal. Only Ichorid truly beats you because of that.


About your MU
Combo : I can see CB improving drastically your combo Match, maybe even positive pre-board. And even better post board.

Threshold deck : Landstill usually just win against Threshold.

Canadian thres : 2c gives you stability, but you have a lot of fetchland. Lack of EE make Mongoose even stronger. You have WOG, but all landstill have WOG. A resolved CB in this MU is generally game if you can stick it to play. I can see a slight improvement, but that is compensated by the loss of removal in the form of EE.

Merfolk : Lack of wasteland, and lack of EE to answer Vial seem to weaken your MU. I have never been able to test CB against Merfolk. They always have 1st turn Aether vial :O

Zoo : CB can be a very interesting tool against Zoo deck. Their curve is extremely low and can easily be shut down by CB + Top. However, they play MD Pridemage that can keep those CB of yours out of the game until you can find a sword to remove him. I can see an improvement in this game by CB.

Burn : Needless to say that maindeck CB can win you the game. But an addition of Cunning wish could be interesting to your list. You could always use the Pulse of the fields to recover from the red zone.


So overall, in my opinion :
-You lose EE, one of the most versatile tool in Landstill
-Your mana base is more stable than most lists, but you also increased the number of fetches.
-CB improves some MU.


Personally, I'd like to tweak your list (but don't have time at the moment to think about it). Here are some ideas, hoping they can help you.
-more removals
-secondary source of Card advantage in the form of Fact or fiction
-Versatility : Cunning wish?

Wasteland does make Factory better under Standstill, but so does Decree. Wasteland and Decree are competing for the same spot. I prefer Decree because it cantrips, is an additional win condition rather than a supplement, and is basically an instant win if the game goes long. However, that is my preference. -2 DoJ +2 Wasteland is also acceptable.

The amount of 4-of's, especially with 4 Brainstorm/4 Top, make the deck rediculously consistent. That's what I've been saying about the deck all along.

EE is a great card, in other Landstill versions. It just doesn't do enough in mine. 2 colors means it's capping out at 2, which just doesn't answer enough anymore. With it's X manacost, it adds nothing to the Counterbalance curve. When popped for 2, it removes my own Counterbalances.

9 removal spells actually works out fine for me with 4 Brainstorm/4 Top since my chance of seeing removal is more like running 10 or 11 in comparison to lists that run 2 or 0 Top's and/or less than 4 Brainstorm. Also, Counterbalance's reusable countermagic power makes up for the lack of removal; you have enough removal to clear the board early and enough countermagic (especially with 4 Counterspell) to keep guys off the table mid-late.

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How do you feel about running 0 Wasteland?
Merfolk deck, imo, is one of my hardest MU.
You get an improvement in Mana base because of 2c (but my black is only a small splash).
You run more basics 7 vs my 6, but you run 8 fetches, vs my 6. Does this open a vulnerability to stifle and life loss?
You lose EE, so almost no answer to turn 1 Aether vial.

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Wasteland is plausible against Merfolk and Tempo Thresh heavy metagames, as a replacement for Decree of Justice, since it's an additional land drop.

Merfolk is not that hard of a matchup for me. Ichorid is by far my hardest one.

My 8 fetches to your 6 does open me up to Stifle more, but it's a necessary evil. I need the shuffle effects for Top. Considering I run 7 basics, consisting of only 2 colors, I rarely find myself worrying about my manabase. An occasionally Stifle here and there doesn't hurt, unless it's your first or second land drop of the game and the opponent gets a blazingly fast start. Luckily, vs Merfolk, they are not as fast as Canadian Threshold so you have time to stabilize if they do pop an early fetchland. However, I run 8 nonbasics, 4 being Factories... how many nonbasics do you run? If you run at least 10, all you're doing is trading my two additional weakness to Stifle lands to your two additional weakness to Wasteland lands. Life loss is mostly irrelevant.

I do lose EE, and it's ability to answer Vial on turn 2. O Ring answers it on turn 3 though (of course Cursecatcher and Daze withholding), so I'm only losing a little bit of tempo there. If I'm on the play and don't get hit/affected by Stifles/Wastes, the opponent only gets 1 counter on Vial before I'm potentially able to blow it up. Of course, that is ideal, and more often than not I'm waiting till 4 land drops to do so, but that's only accelerating them into a few extra critters, which one may have met my StP. Vial makes for fast midgame starts but can be slow during the opening; I have plenty of time to WoG before shit gets crazy. On contrast, I'm much more fearful of a Lackey opening vs Goblins if I don't have a turn 1 answer. Why? Because it's a much faster start.

My sideboard just depends. I bring in 2 O Ring for alot of matchups, including Aggro Loam, CounterTop Thresh, and others. The Path's come in against Zoo and Merfolk, and I may bring them in for Goblins and Goyf Sligh depending (I flop around on this). WoG comes in against CounterTop since 4cc is out of their CB range, and it also is used against decks like Survival Elves and other mass horde decks that I cannot easily 1-for-1 with StP and PtE. This could potentially be 1 Humility.

Ichorid is the only matchup I'd bring graveyard hate in for, so I don't run it. I drop 4 Counterbalance, 2 Decree of Justice, and 2 Oblivion Ring for 4 Path to Exile and 4 Meddling Mage. My reasoning there is two parts, a) StP/PtE keep them off of Putrid Imp's and Ichorid's, so they can't attack for damage, they can't sac them at EOT to Cabal Therapy, and they can't get Zombie tokens for sac'ing them regardless, and b) Meddling Mage names Cabal Therapy so they can't sac Narcomoeba's, getting Zombie tokens, and they can't rape my hand. If they can't put Zombie tokens into play or mount an offensive, they aren't killing me. Early FoW and possibly Counterspell can stop them from super accelerating into a turn 1 or 2 combo. WoG on my own Meddling Mage removes their bridges. If I can survive long enough to drop an Elspeth, chances are I won the matchup. Still, a bad matchup regardless. No point in boarding narrow sideboard for a matchup I rarely ever see. Keep in mind that when I say narrow, I don't mean that Relic cannot come in for other matchups, I mean that there are no other matchups where I actually want to bring Relic in for.

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About your MU
Combo : I can see CB improving drastically your combo Match, maybe even positive pre-board. And even better post board.

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Combo is one of my best matchups, preboard and postboard.

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Threshold deck : Landstill usually just win against Threshold.

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Not every build beats Threshold that easily. Luckily, this one does.

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Canadian thres : 2c gives you stability, but you have a lot of fetchland. Lack of EE make Mongoose even stronger. You have WOG, but all landstill have WOG. A resolved CB in this MU is generally game if you can stick it to play. I can see a slight improvement, but that is compensated by the loss of removal in the form of EE.

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I've yet to lose against Canadian Threshold as of yet. Sometimes they get me very low in life before I manage to stabilize, and I'm sure I'm bound to lose a game from time to time at some point, but so far I've always stabilized and dropped Elspeth or CounterTop ftw. My extra fetchlands =/= your extra nonbasics. Lack of EE makes Goose stronger, but they do run Stifle for that. I just try to block with Factory early on until I can unload a Wrath of God or an Elspeth. Usually early Mongooses stay 1/1 for a while so the clock isn't too threatening. By the time they get big, I can typically drop Elspeth or WoG. Other Landstill lists may run these cards too, but me being U/W makes it easier for me to ramp to 4-5 mana to get one of these cards to stick before I'm dead.

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Merfolk : Lack of wasteland, and lack of EE to answer Vial seem to weaken your MU. I have never been able to test CB against Merfolk. They always have 1st turn Aether vial :O

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Counterbalance is decent to mediocre against Merfolk depending on the situation. I lack EE to early Vial, but still have O Ring or simply just FoW. They are a rather slow aggro deck, and when their mana denial doesn't do as much as it needs to do, I can push through into the mid-late game and answer them before they kill me. CB sucks against them if they have Vial, but if they don't have Vial, CB is alright. If they don't have Vial and you resolve a WoG with a CounterTop on board (or you resolve a CounterTop afterwards), you can push them so far out of the game that they cannot come back and you win. So CB is not worthless here, just situational (rare to counter 3cc spells though). Islandwalk is a bitch, so keeping Lord of Atlantis off the table so that Elspeth and Decree tokens can block is a must. I don't have Wasteland, but I do have Decree... and again, in Merfolk heavy metagames, you can drop 2 Decree for 2 Wasteland. Postboard, you gain Path to Exile, which is a savage beating against them. I have lost a few games against Merfolk before, but I have never lost a 2/3 game set vs them yet.

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Burn : Needless to say that maindeck CB can win you the game. But an addition of Cunning wish could be interesting to your list. You could always use the Pulse of the fields to recover from the red zone.

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I 2-0 Burn all the time. Contrary to the normal use of Counterbalance (i.e not a crutch), it is in fact a crutch in this matchup. Resolving Counterbalance as soon as possible is what you want to dig for everytime. Once it's active, you win the game. Without it, you have to hope to stall through FoW and Counterspell until you can drop Elspeth and race with Elspeth + Factory. Postboard, you bring in both Blue Elemental Blast and Meddling Mage. -2 DoJ, -3 WoG, -2 O Ring, -1 StP, +4 BEB +4 Mage. You now have 15 1cc spells and 16 2cc spells to make Counterbalance blind reveals sick, FoW/Counterspell/Counterbalance/BEB turns them from a 4 turn clock into like a 10 turn clock (or a lockout), Mage can draw out removal (esentially causing them to waste their burn, making Meddling Mage read: UW: Gain 3 life), while it beats for 2, possibly shuts down a burn spell temporarily, and can be hit by your own StP in resp to gain 2 life (net of 5 if they Bolt'd it). Increasing the clock against "combo" is good, and you run an assload of blue spells to pitch to FoW. Sometimes you lose game 1, but I never lose a 2/3 set. Ever.

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So overall, in my opinion :
-You lose EE, one of the most versatile tool in Landstill
-Your mana base is more stable than most lists, but you also increased the number of fetches.
-CB improves some MU.


Personally, I'd like to tweak your list (but don't have time at the moment to think about it). Here are some ideas, hoping they can help you.
-more removals
-secondary source of Card advantage in the form of Fact or fiction
-Versatility : Cunning wish?

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I can live without EE. Vindicate too, for that matter.

8 fetches is pretty standard for me in just about any deck, especially if I'm running Top.

CB improves almost every matchup besides a select few, like Goblins, Dragon Stompy, and Ichorid. The degree to which it improves the matchup is typically different, but it improves some seriously negative matchups so drastically that I cannot for the life of me understand why no one runs Counterbalance maindeck (well, aside from it being horrible in 3c and 4c lists, of course).

I answered the more removals question.

Counterbalance is a secondary form of card advantage. WoG, Standstill, and even Elspeth and Decree of Justice do this as well. Fact or Fiction is a great card but it does not fit into the Counterbalance curve.

I hate Cunning Wish.

Keep the questions coming, I want more content for the primer.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Way back, with that like UWg build. It was an interesting deck, but it really died out for a while. Like the last year.

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I go between 23 and 24 lands, but all of my Landstill lists still run Counterbalance/Top (U/w, U/W/g and U/b/g). It's so damn good against against so much that gives Landstill a hard time (mainly, burn, storm and other fast decks that have spells clumped at 1-2 cmc; though it sucks vs. dredge), but I don't feel the need to post about it these days.

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I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.

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Way back, with that like UWg build. It was an interesting deck, but it really died out for a while. Like the last year.

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Anti-American, I remember that. Back when you suggested CounterTop in Threshold and no one would listen at first. You suggested it to me in UWb Fish and I wouldn't listen either, but that was only because UWb Fish was so mana hungry on playing creatures that it didn't really fit well. Of course, UWb Fish has been obsoleted for a long time anyway.

However, I do not remember you advocating it in Landstill. Not to say that you didn't, cause I'm sure you did, I just didn't keep up with the Landstill thread back then.

However, I thought me and Bardo both came up with the idea around the same time, quite a while back, where Bardo went UGb with Goyfs, and I went UWg for Grips side. Of course, that list back then was not as refined as this list now. That, and I wouldn't play 3c anymore.

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I go between 23 and 24 lands, but all of my Landstill lists still run Counterbalance/Top (U/w, U/W/g and U/b/g). It's so damn good against against so much that gives Landstill a hard time (mainly, burn, storm and other fast decks that have spells clumped at 1-2 cmc; though it sucks vs. dredge), but I don't feel the need to post about it these days.

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I remember you supporting my post when I posted the UWg Counterbalance version a long while back. You just don't actively post on this thread enough. ;)

So, you don't post and let me suffer the wrath of 95% of the Landstill thread? lol j/k

That build was a lot more aggressive though. Every build I saw (and tested) ran goyf and nantuko monastery. These bad boys got replaced by MD elspeth (for me at least) though, and she doesn't fit into the curve for CB as well. Right now I'm awfully happy with the build I'm running, with vindicates and spell snare MB. I'm making this choice because altering the curve to support CB MB to the point where it becomes an asset (i.e. 12+ 2-drops) messes so much with my current build; I'd have to lose vindicate and drop FoF, which I feel are two of the strongest options my build gives.

I do run CB in the board, but it serves a different purpose. It's there for burn (not zoo, generally) and combo. It comes in in other matchups as well, but not as a primary plan, more of a "well, if I get a 1-sided-chalice-at-one that'll be sweet, but my main plan is better since they'll be boarding grips." It's an interesting card to be sure, but for the time I'm keeping it in the board because I feel that gives me the strongest MB options.

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Playtesting comments/ legitimacy

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I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your playtesting at all or the ammount of time so much. I'm questioning the legitimacy of your Results against matchups/ actual tournament results.

You keep mentioning how if you take out vial in the equation of said aggro matchup it becomes alot easier (if you force, etc.) Obviously if you take the single best anti-control card out of the equation then all of a sudden the matchups you face are going to substantially change. Now keep in mind that most match-ups that are played with vial are won and lost based on how well the opponent can either deal with vial or die from it. The reality? You have 2 oblivian ring and 4 force to stop it main deck and a post board where you add in 2 additional rings and a wrath. This isn't substantially changing any aggro match-up you face.

Also mentioned in here was D-Stompy. This deck is virtually an auto-bye for most landstill variants color intensive on the black splash or not. Dragon Stompy has been proven over and over again to be a glass-cannon so bringing it up really makes no sense or difference in regards to such a favorable match-up.

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Discrediting you

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The only reason I actually question your testing is because your playing cards that are generally just (fair) and actually very answerable. Cards like Oblivian ring and counterbalance when left unprotected are treated as soft locks and generally not fantastic answers. Only when counterbalance is diluted with an aggro control shell has it been proven to actually be successful. Even ITF is more an aggro control deck then a pure control deck. Also just to mention your ugb brainstorming is basically Team Canada made by Team Spod, most notably DIF. You should consider checking into that. I believe it's in the tournament report page of one of their last few tourneys.

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Just because you've used Counterbalance in the sideboard, or have tried it in the past, does not change the fact that you haven't used it in the shell I'm using it in. This may be a reason why your perception of it is slightly different than mine.

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No. The reason I don't agree with counterbalance in the main-deck is because its just an improvement on decks that normal counterbalance based control already beats. While it does improve some match-ups it also hozes so many more matchups where counterbalance really isn't an issue; and because your not nearly as consistent at hitting you numbers or answers as say threshhold is I think you really arn't seeing the real picture. Landstill is not as a whole cannot be as redundant as decks like threshhold or dreadstill are which makes counterbalance less good and more dependant on cards that actually do something. Making Oblivian ring less efficient and more just another 3 drop that doesnt do enough. This list goes on and on.

Also going this route you cut the second best removal in the format (EE) which is virtually the backbone of why land still wins so many of it's match-ups with semi inevitability with Academy Ruins. My perception may be different but i've played my fair share of counterbalance in the main decks of land-still before. I've also tested thresh models extensively and White splash thresh for future reference is my pet deck, which is why I just generally disagree with your testing information, as aggro control handles vial a lot better then control handles it and even in those match ups it causes stress for those decks that actually have the correct efficient answers.

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Tournament results

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because you have none. You've been testing this deck against the meta-game for six months yet you have few answers to common questions that are going to be stresses to the arch type as a whole. You have cut ee, upped the slow removal count: and yet because you run counterbalance: practically bleed that it does enough to rip the aggro match ups in this current meta to be a successful sub arch type. Well i'm sorry Mr. Magoo but i'm calling your bluff on this one. I've done the same testing as you with a much stronger aggressive game-plan oriented deck against the same aggro decks and i've come up short. I don't see how you with a much more reactive game and slightly less efficient are coming up with better results.

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The difference between experience and ideology does not have to directly corrolate to tournaments.

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No but actually testing against pilots who know their perspective decks at the top tables and winning against them versus sleev-ing up and battling over a kitchen/ local FNM table makes a world of difference. Include m.w.s testing in this kitchen table category.

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When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing."

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Here in lies the problem. Aggro loam is favorable and burn is 40-50 % based on side-boarding and burn main deck differences. These match ups are roughly favorable anyways.

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Think in terms of sports for a second; playtesting is to practice as tournaments are to the game. You don't get better at the sport only when playing in the game, you get better at the sport by going to lots of practices.

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Tell this to Alan Iverson, (comedy drum roll pause)

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I fail to see how Merfolk now becomes punted, considering I do very well against Merfolk. Counterbalance itself doesn't hit two of their lords and Wakethrasher if they run it, but it hits everything else. The only foil is Vial, which is typically a must counter or must O Ring preboard, and of course postboard there are more answers. I'll address this matchup more in the primer.

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Remember these words for your upcomming testing. Don't forget what you said here.

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Goblins preboard is not improved by Counterbalance. There are a few targets for it, but for the most part they are bundled up at the 3cc spot. However, the U/W manabase that I run makes up for my deficencies in many of the matchups where Counterbalance isn't so hot, like Goblins and Dragon Stompy, which does in fact improve those matchups.

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fyi counterbalance should be sweet in the d stompy match up once resolved. Once you lock it on 3-4 your basicly winning. Though I would imagine your stompy matchup is still tough as you dont have ee for challice and you run more fetches the most people in the landstill thread.

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Again, Vial is something you want to answer quickly. Otherwise, the deck has enough removal and Decree/Elspeth to handle Goblins.

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Thats the point, it doesn't consistently. Especially with the newest additions to the goblin arsenol, namely chieften and quite possible instigator. These cards are going to make it rediculously tough to handle goblins along with siege gang and ringleader. Ringleader used to be the real backbone in the deck, but no longer.

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I 100% disagree with you about Threshold. I rape Threshold. Countless amount of times does this happen.

Tempo Thresh is improved by the U/W manabase and their low threat density is met by a large number of removal spells.

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fyi tempo thresh is largely a favorable match up already. Also you keep mentioning this simply amazing manabase that you run of 2 additional fetches and 2 less duals with 0 land disruption and 1 additional island. This isn't more stable. It's possibly statistically more efficient but you forget that stifle is a major part of this format is blue and most of it is blue aggro control decks which most good ones happen to pack stifle. This is actually the entire reason why decks don't go nuts on the fetches anymore (besides perhaps zoo) Keep in mind that you also are still susceptible to wasteland as you run 8 non-basics so your deffinately not anywhere near out of the water, you just changed your poisons. Personally i'd rather lose a land to wasteland then to stifle, but thats just me :)

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Decks like Thresh and Dreadstill don't run Counterspell because they curve out early and don't intend on hitting enough land drops or sitting back to be able to have UU open to cast Counterspell.

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No but they plan on playing counterbalance and rhox? How does this make any sense at all?

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That's why Daze is good here. Flip this around for a moment; if Daze is so good in those decks, why don't we run it?

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because those decks are made to combat the other aggro control decks and combo decks much better then we can. Daze is universally not a counter for landstill because the idea of landstill is not that daze isn't a control card (it was played in Tog and remains one of the best tempo hozers in the game.) It's because the core of landstill forces it to not miss land drops. This is why cards that reduce the chances of you missing land-drops are amazing in landstill. It's not that your winning games on the back of counterbalance. It's that counterbalance is allowing you additional time to stall out games until you hit the later game. While that is exceptional in matchups that don't have a primary focus such as aggro loam or even pikula, or rock, in landstill the primary focus is to make it to turn four. Once you make it to turn four and hit your fourth land drop the game is substantially in your favor against a good portion of the current format. Against other decks like burn or combo this is not true and this is why im saying its a sideboard card. Its good in some matchups but its not relivent enough against the majority of the format (which ive tested against.)


Don't try to compare why Counterspell is good/bad in Landstill to why it's good/bad in Threshold; that's comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. That is absolutely a piss pour argument.

White thresh older (2-3 months) ran a single highlander counter spell so it's not exactly apples to oranges and the same principle philosophy belongs to the control shell of both decks. Stop the opponent from doing crazy shit and procede to do what your deck does best, ala control. It's more like aggressive strategy versus reactive strategy. And at the end of the day I guess you could say my play is more aggresive then yours and I don't need to play a counter wall with 15 counters and 2 threats. FYI your threats arn't inevitable like they were back when MUC was good, and the format knows it. Which makes your attempt at overcontrolling the format/matchups even more awkward.

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You can compare my Counterspell to Thresh's Tarmogoyf all you want. Landstill is designed as a reactive deck, not a proactive one.

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Which is why traditional designs failed and the deck practicly died. Thank god someone got some common sense to update the damn thing. Otherwise we'd all be playing countertop thresh. O wait, most of us already do.

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That's why we have Counterspell for that Goyf, but that's also why we have Swords to Plowshares for that Goyf.

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no we play stp because its the best removal spell in the format, we don't play goyf because we can't abuse it like a control shell can with even more redundancy than we can possibly contribute to said idea of a perfect 75.

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Counter argument

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Im not even going to get into this. Im just going to say that I personally believe that if threshhold gets counterbalance rolling, its better then if you can do it. Your answers are few, and you dont run EE.

Also this 2cc argument. you run 4 counterspell 4 standstill and 4 counterbalance. Thats 12 2cc spells. I run 5, sometimes less but generally 5. Don't tell me your not substantially more resiliant to spell snare or daze. your hardly ever going to play a matchup where you dont play against mix of daze snare stifle and wasteland, some matchups run all of those cards, and all of those cards give you problems. also just nuetralize force because they run it as well so the chances are approximately equal.

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I fail to see how 2cc drops are worse than 3cc drops like Cunning Wish and Vindicate or 4cc drops like Elspeth and WoG.

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Gustha do you mind answering this for me. I've been responding for 2 hours now and im just trying to get through this.

Ill answer the rest of this when i have more time.

-Moss

Oh my god get to the point. Both of you.

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You're playing either 3c or 4c Landstill and your opponent is playing Canadian Thresh. Your opponent goes first and plays a Tropical Island and passes the turn. On your turn, you play a fetchland which is met by Stifle (you play the fetchland because all you have are nonbasic lands in hand, whether duals or colorless producers).

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Why are you using your fetch on your turn one, on the draw against tempo thresh? If you have no play, don't crack it. If you are playing a list with Tops and want to cast Top turn one use another land, so you don't get blown out by a Stifle and you still have the fetch for possible reshuffles. They will rarely tap out on their second turn for Goyf if all you did turn one was fetchland, pass. If they do, that gives you a window for activating fetches and casting Swords without fear of Stifle and Daze on your next turn. Also, turn one Brainstorm is terrible most of the time.

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Honestly, how many players saying no to Counterbalance actually tested my exact decklist, and how many playtested it in their 3c and 4c lists?

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I had a list very similar to yours which I threw together after I saw your list waayy back in this thread, but I had Explosives in it. It was ok, but a resolved Aether Vial made me want to throw my deck across the room, since I only had three ways to kill it. It blanked so many cards in my deck and put me way too far behind.

Hanni, do you really need the 4 Mage in the board when you have eight hard-counters to deal with random stuff? (Armageddon from stax, for example)

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Why are you using your fetch on your turn one, on the draw against tempo thresh? If you have no play, don't crack it. If you are playing a list with Tops and want to cast Top turn one use another land, so you don't get blown out by a Stifle and you still have the fetch for possible reshuffles. They will rarely tap out on their second turn for Goyf if all you did turn one was fetchland, pass. If they do, that gives you a window for activating fetches and casting Swords without fear of Stifle and Daze on your next turn. Also, turn one Brainstorm is terrible most of the time.

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It was just a hypothetical example of the tempo they generate vs us, not what the actual optimal play would have been in that situation. I came up with those plays off the top of my head, since tempo generation by them was similar to that in my small test sample with my UGb Intuition Loam deck vs Canadian Thresh. I'm not accounting bluffing Daze or anything like that into this scenario, just pointing out the power level of Canadian Thresh (and like variants, ala Merfolk) against a 3c control decks manabase and spell curve.

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I had a list very similar to yours which I threw together after I saw your list waayy back in this thread, but I had Explosives in it. It was ok, but a resolved Aether Vial made me want to throw my deck across the room, since I only had three ways to kill it. It blanked so many cards in my deck and put me way too far behind.

Hanni, do you really need the 4 Mage in the board when you have eight hard-counters to deal with random stuff? (Armageddon from stax, for example)

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The lack of answers to Vial with my deck isn't really as bad as it seems. How many answers is everyone else running, 2 EE and 2 Vindicate? EE is obviously a little better against Vial than O Ring is, but it's not ZOMGZ better, and Vindicates WB manacost seems like it would be difficult to cast to blow up Vial against Wastes/Ports or Wastes/Stifles/Dazes (and possibly Cursecatcher's). I like O Ring in my deck, and I think being 2c + O Ring > the loss of EE and Vindicate, but hey, that's just me. But then again, I wouldn't advise running Counterbalance in anything other than 2c, so it's a trade of power: would you accept a slightly weaker removal package for a more stable manabase and the awesomesauce that is Counterbalance?

Vial is a fairly big problem to deal with, since it nullifies much of our countermagic (when they aren't hardcasting any guys). As far as mana ramp, it takes them a few turns for them to get going, so I actually prefer to see Vial starts over something like an unanswered Lackey start (where they often race you before you can stabilize). It means I have enough time to dig (for WoG) & ramp (mana) for WoG, whether that's through Stifle/Waste/Daze (and possibly Cursecatcher) or Waste/Port. If they ramp Vial and unload a bunch of guys, you're going to take some damage but more often than not, not lethal. Once you WoG, you buy yourself alot of time to find more removal or drop an Elspeth, from my experience. Vial is a problem, but by no means is a resolved Vial, that goes unanswered, game over. At least not from my "illegitimate" experience.

Mage answers alot of randomness, despite the irony in that. Predicted randomness anyway... what I mean is, decks that you know about, but matchups you wouldn't expect Mage to come in for.

Mage comes in against Burn, Ichorid, and Combo to name the most popular matchups I bring him in against. I've already stated why and how I bring them in for Ichorid like 3 times in the last 2 pages so I won't repeat it, and I just mentioned Burn too, but I left combo out. That should be a no brainer, but basically it adds an additional clock (this point is relevant) while temporarily and additionally disrupting their gameplan so they simply cannot do shit against you. Being blue and 2cc makes him a very relevant sideboard card to bring in against some other matchups as well, because of the importance of blue spells to pitch to FoW, and additional 2cc spells for the Counterbalance curve (like Burn and Combo, Goyf Sligh, etc).

Also, against certain key spells, Mage can be useful. For example, doing what CounterTop can do against Aggro Loam by naming Loam, though I don't board Mage in because they run alot of removal and I plan on casting WoG as often as I need to. Bad example maybe, but you get the point.

Relentless Rats? I have Meddling Mage! lol...

It's also strong against opposing Control decks; typically, my mass removal is bad against them, so I board out WoG's, and they almost always have a few spells I'd really like to not see played. He's not as great as Gaddock Teeg against Control, but wait... Teeg shuts us down anyway. Plus his little 2/2 clock, combined with Factories, do add up.

@ Mossivo

I really wanted to reply to your post tonight, but it's probably going to take me like 3 hours so I'll have to wait till tomorrow. I definitely appreciate you engaging me in detailed conversation about this. I promise it will be worth your time to do so. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Anti-American, I remember that. Back when you suggested CounterTop in Threshold and no one would listen at first. You suggested it to me in UWb Fish and I wouldn't listen either, but that was only because UWb Fish was so mana hungry on playing creatures that it didn't really fit well. Of course, UWb Fish has been obsoleted for a long time anyway.

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Yeah.... so did Threshold. Have you seen how many people took Mongeese out of CB Thresh?

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However, I do not remember you advocating it in Landstill. Not to say that you didn't, cause I'm sure you did, I just didn't keep up with the Landstill thread back then.

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I've been advocating for them in the sideboard. Still, post board games are 66% of a game. Having Counterbalance just helps.

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However, I thought me and Bardo both came up with the idea around the same time, quite a while back, where Bardo went UGb with Goyfs, and I went UWg for Grips side. Of course, that list back then was not as refined as this list now. That, and I wouldn't play 3c anymore.

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It's still an alright list. Having access to Krosan Grips is still a strong option for the deck to have.

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I remember you supporting my post when I posted the UWg Counterbalance version a long while back. You just don't actively post on this thread enough. ;)

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I still posted. :)

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So, you don't post and let me suffer the wrath of 95% of the Landstill thread? lol j/k

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You don't need to read the Landstill thread if you know and tested long Landstill long enough.

I have to jump right on in with this conversation about counterbalance landstill...



The addition of counterbalance totally changes how the deck plays compared to other landstill decks...

I'll go over a few key differences about how the deck can play, as well as how different the MUs are...


1. Sensei's divining top...

This card allows us to go into overdrive control mode... when you finally run your opponent out of gas, you get to either draw the lands you want OR the control you want when you need it... It also makes a resolved standstill much more dangerous for an opponent (making landdrops until they break it is unbelievable)... Also... i have had situations where (against another control deck) I was able to force them into breaking my standstill and picking what i got to draw from it (fetch + top).

2.

With the simplicity of the deck (running 4 counterspell, 4 force of will, AND counterbalance), you run so much countermagic, even the best of opponents wont be able to resolve the cards they want to past turns 3-4... because you not only have the soft lock of counterbalance, you also have 8 hard counters (thresh only runs 4).... this puts you waaay ahead of anyone who wants to fight a counter war.

3.

Counterbalance itself:

Helps in several horrible MUs:

1. burn/zoo
- Being able to shut them down with one card and actually stabilizing is a pure miracle for regualr landstill (either running wish MD... or simply losing because of the burn)... this card makes the MU Imposible to win FOR THEM... it changes a horrible MU into a fantastic MU... Anyways... lets move on to some others:

2. combo
-lets be totally honest... regular landstill gets pooped on by quicker combo every day... even the early countermagic only prevents the inevitable in this MU... BUT what if you had a card to lock them entirely out of the game, and therefore put them into an unwinnable situation... IF ONLY there were a card out there... OH YEAH! Counterbalance. This and some cards in the board can allow you so much hate towards a combo deck, it becomes their worst nightmare.

3. Agro loam
- A good agro loam pilot walks over a good landstill pilot any day of the week... whether its just their ability to rape the landbase (wasteland/loam or just devastating dreams)... or they just spit out a crapton of threats/ get a lot of CA (loam/dark confidant/crusher)... Landstill can only do so much against the recursive nature of the deck (witness sometimes, stronghold and loam primarily... also the wish board can get annoying)...

COUNTERBALANCE and top both change this MU... allowing you to dig more than traditional landstill builds (top) to find solutions, or shutting down a large portion of their cards (counterbalance @2), and then allowing you to find ways to deal with the few and far in between threats... This MU is actually much different than it was for regular landstill.

I wont even talk about what this card does to the mirror... its sad really.

There are a few more decks I could list, but i think you guys probably get the point.


Honestly... I was skeptical of his list too... until he convinced me to actually try it.

This is the best deck in the format, you just need to learn how to play it, and test it for yourselves... and you will see that we speak the truth.

I put CounterTop in my Landstill build a while ago. Eventually, I tried Predict in place of Standstill, and I really like it.

You almost always know what's coming next, thanks to Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Top (and even Academy Ruins). You net one card with Predict instead of two, but you're still digging three cards deep, and it's easy to dump redundant Tops and Counterbalances from the top of the library.

Also, you can play Predict in an unfavorable board position, or at the end of an opponent's turn. And sometimes you'll take an opponent's Enlightened Tutor by surprise.

Why NOW are people starting to talk about Counter-Top in a Landstill deck? Why not before? What has changed since a year ago?

I would have figured most decks would have implemented Counter-Top if they were running blue.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I would have figured most decks would have implemented Counter-Top if they were running blue.

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Well, it's seven or eight slots, so there's a certain amount of commitment there that might not be appropriate for everything with blue. For example, CounterTop would dilute Merfolk's game plan.

Personally, I don't see CounterTop as belonging in Landstill. Don't get me wrong, it can be successful and fun to play; but I think that once you have both Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top, then Predict becomes marginally better than Standstill, and then it's no longer a Landstill deck.

I think people are exaggerating countertop's power in landstill, especially against combo. Against them it's a 2-card combo, which doesn't provide a hard lock, especially post-board. By it's self, CB's really not that powerful. The more I work with the incarnation of the deck I'm playing, the more I'm starting to feel Geoff's style would shine. I'm not ready to run less than 2 top, but I'm going to be doing some work with hate-bears out of the board and see how the clock affects the AdN matchup.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I'm not ready to run less than 2 top, but I'm going to be doing some work with hate-bears out of the board and see how the clock affects the AdN matchup.

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I'm not the best combo player as I've just started getting into it, but I know I am much more annoyed by Meddling Mage on Tendrils than anything else. It is possible to play around Counterbalance+Top. Leading out with a Silence/Chant, I hope you have to flip Top to counter it. If you do, I can cast a bunch of Rituals in response and have enough mana to just win. With Meddling Mage online, I have to answer it before I can win and it makes how I win much more specific (as Ad-Nauseum is less good after taking some blows to the face).

That's just my personal feeling on the Counterbalance argument for the combo match-up.

I think MM on ToA is worse than Gaddock Teeg. Seriously, I can kill you with either EtW or with ToA. A MM on ToA alone doesn't solve the problem. Teeg solves both. but then again, you would need a MM on Burning Wish, to lock the combo player completely out of the game.
But even then, some people will tutor up for their Grapeshot or a bounce.

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Originally Posted by Nidd

I think MM on ToA is worse than Gaddock Teeg. Seriously, I can kill you with either EtW or with ToA. A MM on ToA alone doesn't solve the problem. Teeg solves both. but then again, you would need a MM on Burning Wish, to lock the combo player completely out of the game.
But even then, some people will tutor up for their Grapeshot or a bounce.

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Teeg sounds like a terrible idea in a deck where it shuts off the strongest parts of its draw engine, some of the counter suite, and EE. Not many people splash green either. If I were going the hate-bear route it would probably be with 3 Earthsworn cannonist and 3 MM.

I run CB/Top MD, MM SB, so I get the best of both worlds.

Mossivo, I'll be responding to your last post in just a few minutes.

OMFG, I just spent 2 hours typing out a reply to Mossivo, and when I clicked on post, it came out with 0 words. WTF?!

Don't tell me I have to write that whole thing out again...

EDIT: Well, this post isn't as detailed as it was the first time, but since this is the second time I had to reply to it, I took alot of shortcuts on my responses.

First, I want to post what I think is your latest list, Mossivo, so that I have something to cross-reference to:

4 flooded strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 und sea
1 scrub
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins

4 force
4 snare
2 c.s

3 top
3 standstill
3 brainstorm

4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility
1 path
1 disk

3 decree
2 elspeth

2 cunning wish

sb:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 ray of dist
1 e tutor
2 path
2 relic
3 EP
3 CB
1 cow

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I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your playtesting at all or the ammount of time so much. I'm questioning the legitimacy of your Results against matchups/ actual tournament results.

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I don’t have tournament results because I cannot play in tournaments. If this is a problem for you, there is nothing that I can do.

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You keep mentioning how if you take out vial in the equation of said aggro matchup it becomes alot easier (if you force, etc.) Obviously if you take the single best anti-control card out of the equation then all of a sudden the matchups you face are going to substantially change. Now keep in mind that most match-ups that are played with vial are won and lost based on how well the opponent can either deal with vial or die from it. The reality? You have 2 oblivian ring and 4 force to stop it main deck and a post board where you add in 2 additional rings and a wrath. This isn't substantially changing any aggro match-up you face.

Also mentioned in here was D-Stompy. This deck is virtually an auto-bye for most landstill variants color intensive on the black splash or not. Dragon Stompy has been proven over and over again to be a glass-cannon so bringing it up really makes no sense or difference in regards to such a favorable match-up.

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Most of the time when I lose to Goblins, it’s because I didn’t have an answer to turn 1 Lackey and they raced me. The other times that I lose are when they Matron/Ringleader/Wort into card advantage so that they overpower my Wrath of God’s. I’m not worried about the mana ramp on Vial; the only reason why it’s a problem for me is cause it shuts off some of my countermagic (they will still hardcast stuff) and Standstill. I run 2 Oblivion Ring, you run 3 EE. Not a signifcant difference, IMO.

Postboard, you’re all wrong. I gain 4 Blue Elemental Blast and 2 Path to Exile, giving me a total of 10 1cc spot removal spells, and my Goblins matchup becomes considerably better. They can’t keep a guy in play, I drop Elspeth, I win.

I still fail to see you how you have a significantly better Goblins matchup than me. You probably have a better game one because of Humility/Decree, but postboard, your Plagues are going to be difficult to cast through their Waste/Port when you only run 6 fetchlands and 2 dual lands that produce black, with less than 4/4 Brainstorm/Top to dig.

Maybe Dragon Stompy is an autoloss for you, but not for me. I care little about their Moon effects since I can kill Magus and even with the enchantment on board, I can still play through it. They run Chalice/Trini as their only other disruption, and a bunch of big guys that I run a ton of removal for. Preboard is probably 50/50… if they get a nuts draw I lose, if they don’t, I win. Postboard, the matchup gets a lot better.

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The only reason I actually question your testing is because your playing cards that are generally just (fair) and actually very answerable. Cards like Oblivian ring and counterbalance when left unprotected are treated as soft locks and generally not fantastic answers. Only when counterbalance is diluted with an aggro control shell has it been proven to actually be successful. Even ITF is more an aggro control deck then a pure control deck. Also just to mention your ugb brainstorming is basically Team Canada made by Team Spod, most notably DIF. You should consider checking into that. I believe it's in the tournament report page of one of their last few tourneys.

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How are my cards any less fair or any less answerable than yours? How are my answers any less fantastic than yours? Just because control decks don’t have tournament results to prove that they work with Counterbalance doesn’t mean they don’t, it means not enough (if anyone) is playing them for results to be proven. Why would a slow control card [Counterbalance] be good in aggro/control [Threshold] but not good in a slow control deck [Landstill]? None of the reasons you've given me make any sense. ITF is more of an aggro/control deck than we are? Come on now. That deck is slow as hell, Goyf or not. We’re more aggro/control than they are with 4 Factory and 2 Elspeth, if anything.

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No. The reason I don't agree with counterbalance in the main-deck is because its just an improvement on decks that normal counterbalance based control already beats. While it does improve some match-ups it also hozes so many more matchups where counterbalance really isn't an issue; and because your not nearly as consistent at hitting you numbers or answers as say threshhold is I think you really arn't seeing the real picture. Landstill is not as a whole cannot be as redundant as decks like threshhold or dreadstill are which makes counterbalance less good and more dependant on cards that actually do something. Making Oblivian ring less efficient and more just another 3 drop that doesnt do enough. This list goes on and on.

Also going this route you cut the second best removal in the format (EE) which is virtually the backbone of why land still wins so many of it's match-ups with semi inevitability with Academy Ruins. My perception may be different but i've played my fair share of counterbalance in the main decks of land-still before. I've also tested thresh models extensively and White splash thresh for future reference is my pet deck, which is why I just generally disagree with your testing information, as aggro control handles vial a lot better then control handles it and even in those match ups it causes stress for those decks that actually have the correct efficient answers.

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So running Counterbalance improves matchups against decks that Counterbalance beats? Huh?

So running Counterbalance improves some matchups and hoses some other ones? Isn’t that what I’ve been saying? I don’t understand what you’re getting at.

How am I any less consistent or redundant than Threshold? They run 4 extra cantrips, I run 4 Standstills. I’m also running a ton of 4-of’s, all of which do something similar to the other cards I’m running, like having 12 countermagic spells and 9 removal spells. You’re not making any sense. I don’t even get the last part of your paragraph, either.

I disagree with you. I don’t think that EE is the second best removal spell in the format. Also, if you’re winning a lot of matchups with RuinsEE lock, you might be doing something wrong. You run 1 Ruins and absolutely no way to tutor for it. You should be winning most games before this lock occurs. Both RuinsEE lock and CounterTop lock are both disruptable, but I’d rather win with a CounterTop lock than a RuinsEE lock.

White Threshold does answer Vial better, with Qasali Pridemage and/or Trygon Predator maindeck. So what you are saying is that Vial alone makes Counterbalance obsolete in every deck besides white Threshold? I disagree.

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because you have none. You've been testing this deck against the meta-game for six months yet you have few answers to common questions that are going to be stresses to the arch type as a whole. You have cut ee, upped the slow removal count: and yet because you run counterbalance: practically bleed that it does enough to rip the aggro match ups in this current meta to be a successful sub arch type. Well i'm sorry Mr. Magoo but i'm calling your bluff on this one. I've done the same testing as you with a much stronger aggressive game-plan oriented deck against the same aggro decks and i've come up short. I don't see how you with a much more reactive
game and slightly less efficient are coming up with better results.

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I don’t have tournament results because I cannot play in tournaments. If this matters that much to you, and tosses so much of my credibility out of the window for you, why are you bothering to play this objection/rebuttal process with me then?

I’ve cut EE and upped the slow removal? How is EE not slow removal? Oblivion Ring =/= EE. You run Nevinyrral’s Disk, how is that not slow removal? The only thing I see is 1 extra Path to Exile main in your deck in comparison to mine.

The metagame has become more of an aggro metagame lately, isn’t that supposed to be a good thing for us? Last time I checked, Landstill has a great aggro matchup.

Counterbalance does tear a lot of aggro matchups apart. Zoo and Goyf Sligh are directly affected. Tempo Thresh and CounterTop Thresh are also affected. The only matchups that are not significantly affected are the Vial based ones, and even against Merfolk, Counterbalance is still mediocre.

Regardless, I have a retarded amount of removal in my sideboard to bring in for games 2 and 3 against aggro.

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No but actually testing against pilots who know their perspective decks at the top tables and winning against them versus sleev-ing up and battling over a kitchen/ local FNM table makes a world of difference. Include m.w.s testing in this kitchen table category.
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When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing."
Here in lies the problem. Aggro loam is favorable and burn is 40-50 % based on side-boarding and burn main deck differences. These match ups are roughly favorable anyways.

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If you think Aggro Loam is favorable, then I question your legitimacy. Aggro Loam is a horrible matchup for Landstill. I realize you run 3 CB/3 Top postboard to improve this, but even then, I don’t see you winning a 2/3 set against Aggro Loam more than you lose to it without running CB/Top in the main.

Against Burn, the only way you’re winning game one is if you draw into one of your two Cunning Wish’s and cast a Pulse before they kill you. Not only is that not going to happen often enough, you’re also going to have to get Pulse off before your dead. I’m not seeing you winning many g1’s against Burn. In games 2/3, you have 3 CB/Top, but even then, that’s still a crutch for you, and I don’t see you winning a 2/3 set more often than you lose a 2/3 set. The same goes for Goyf Sligh.

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fyi counterbalance should be sweet in the d stompy match up once resolved. Once you lock it on 3-4 your basicly winning. Though I would imagine your stompy matchup is still tough as you dont have ee for challice and you run more fetches the most people in the landstill thread.

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There are only 7 4cc spells for Counterbalance, so it’s difficult to get one on top. It’s not an ideal card here… but like almost every matchup, Counterbalance is never completely dead and has at least some use (i.e at least Mediocre against almost every matchup).

I don’t have EE for Chalice but I do have Oblivion Ring. I might run more fetchlands, but I also run more basics. I’m not really worried about their Moon effects.

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fyi tempo thresh is largely a favorable match up already. Also you keep mentioning this simply amazing manabase that you run of 2 additional fetches and 2 less duals with 0 land disruption and 1 additional island. This isn't more stable. It's possibly statistically more efficient but you forget that stifle is a major part of this format is blue and most of it is blue aggro control decks which most good ones happen to pack stifle. This is actually the entire reason why decks don't go nuts on the fetches anymore (besides perhaps zoo) Keep in mind that you also are still susceptible to wasteland as you run 8 non-basics so your deffinately not anywhere near out of the water, you just changed your poisons. Personally i'd rather lose a land to wasteland then to stifle, but thats just me :)

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I run 2 extra fetchlands but I run 1 extra basic, 1 less colorless land, and 2 less dual lands. I also run 1 extra Brainstorm and 1 extra Top. I may give up more susceptibility to Stifle, which may generate more tempo for them than more vulnerability to Wasteland, but that’s just a necessary evil. 8 fetchlands has more synergy with my Brainstorm/Top to not run them because a few decks run Stifle. Not all Landstill decks are running 6 basics like you are, anyway.

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No but they plan on playing counterbalance and rhox? How does this make any sense at all?

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What I meant was that Thresh wants to constantly curve out early, playing creatures, Counterbalance, and cantrips. They don’t want to hold UU open to cast Counterspell. That’s why they run Daze instead of Counterspell.

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because those decks are made to combat the other aggro control decks and combo decks much better then we can. Daze is universally not a counter for landstill because the idea of landstill is not that daze isn't a control card (it was played in Tog and remains one of the best tempo hozers in the game.) It's because the core of landstill forces it to not miss land drops. This is why cards that reduce the chances of you missing land-drops are amazing in landstill. It's not that your winning games on the back of counterbalance. It's that counterbalance is allowing you additional time to stall out games until you hit the later game. While that is exceptional in matchups that don't have a primary focus such as aggro loam or even pikula, or rock, in landstill the primary focus is to make it to turn four. Once you make it to turn four and hit your fourth land drop the game is substantially in your favor against a good portion of the current format. Against other decks like burn or combo this is not true and this is why im saying its a sideboard card. Its good in some matchups but its not relivent enough against the majority of the format (which ive tested against.)

White thresh older (2-3 months) ran a single highlander counter spell so it's not exactly apples to oranges and the same principle philosophy belongs to the control shell of both decks. Stop the opponent from doing crazy shit and procede to do what your deck does best, ala control. It's more like aggressive strategy versus reactive strategy. And at the end of the day I guess you could say my play is more aggresive then yours and I don't need to play a counter wall with 15 counters and 2 threats. FYI your threats arn't inevitable like they were back when MUC was good, and the format knows it. Which makes your attempt at overcontrolling the format/matchups even more awkward.

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I agree, aggro/control has a better combo matchup. They have extra early disruption with Daze (for the turn 1 combo’s), and a faster clock. That doesn’t mean we don’t have a good combo matchup.

You missed my point. I never said we should run Daze. You were saying that Counterspell was bad in Landstill by comparing Counterspell in Threshold, so I flipped the argument around and asked why we don’t run Daze since Threshold does.

I actually do win games on the back of Counterbalance. Sometimes I win with CounterTop lock, other games I win because I put them so far behind that they can’t come back.

Turn 4, or rather 4 lands in play, is our sweet spot, I agree. That doesn’t mean we automatically win every game that we get that far in, though.

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no we play stp because its the best removal spell in the format, we don't play goyf because we can't abuse it like a control shell can with even more redundancy than we can possibly contribute to said idea of a perfect 75.

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You missed my point again. I never said we should play Goyf. I was explaining why you cannot compare Threshold’s Goyf’s to our Counterspells.

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Im not even going to get into this. Im just going to say that I personally believe that if threshhold gets counterbalance rolling, its better then if you can do it. Your answers are few, and you dont run EE.

Also this 2cc argument. you run 4 counterspell 4 standstill and 4 counterbalance. Thats 12 2cc spells. I run 5, sometimes less but generally 5. Don't tell me your not substantially more resiliant to spell snare or daze. your hardly ever going to play a matchup where you dont play against mix of daze snare stifle and wasteland, some matchups run all of those cards, and all of those cards give you problems. also just nuetralize force because they run it as well so the chances are approximately equal.

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How does Threshold use CounterTop better than I do? Most Threshold lists these days are using a similar 1cc/2cc curve, and how do they have more answers than me because I don’t run EE? I don’t understand what you mean.

I didn’t know what your decklist looked like when I made that 2cc comparison. So you run 5 2cc spells, with 3 EE’s that can potentially be 2cc. So yes, I am more susceptible to Spell Snare. I fail to see how that makes me any more susceptible to Daze than you are, though.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

OMFG, I just spent 2 hours typing out a reply to Mossivo, and when I clicked on post, it came out with 0 words. WTF?!

Don't tell me I have to write that whole thing out again...

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When you're going that long dude, at least save it to your clipboard. If not write it on a word document.

I just wanted to point out that MM naming Tendrils is always key. If you can force them to combo with Empty the Warrens, you can come out of this victorious. Landstill, in most list, runs mass removals in the form of EE and WOG. It should be too hard to answer ETW. On the other hand, a lethal TOA cannot be prevented after it occurs

Robert