All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by ChaosOS

The issue with black disruption is that "the cantrip cartel" is incredibly powerful at nullifying the effects of it (See: Thoughtseize/IoK in modern) and that non-blue decks tend to empty their hands fast enough that discard doesn't do anything after turn 4/5. Do we really think we can get that much more powerful than Unmask, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Cabal Therapy?

I'll just contrast this by talking about discard in modern. One, modern is a faster format with generally more fragile strategies, making discard powerful due to its proactivity and giving hand vision. Two, decks have a harder time recovering from discard since the cantrip options simply aren't that good (Have any of you even played with Serum Visions?). Three, the counterspells in the format are a lot worse, making discard one of the better options for answering "odd" strategies, plus there's no good prison like countertop to help secure the late game for reactive decks. Instead UWR is stuck playing Nahiri as a slower Mentor without a way to lock the opponent out prior to dropping her.

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I did say that black disruption was much worse than blue disruption but it shouldn't take much imagination to think of a non-balanced discard spell.

Bam - B
Instant
Split Second
Target Player Discards Their Hand.

This would immediately make counter spells much worse and discard would suddenly be better than counter magic.

The issue is that permanent based disruption has gotten a huge boost in power level and play ability in the past few years giving us a way to disrupt an opponent that is competitive and doesn't rely on playing blue. Since the balance of playable disruption has changed from U vs B we 1) get a more varied format and 2)have to deal with the disruption packages differently.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Traditional disruption has always been the golden standard for years and as blue disruption vastly overpowered black based disruption the blue shell became the best shell to disrupt your opponents plans. Now that permanent based disruption is a viable strategy the way that we trade cards for cards has to adjust to be able to interact with the disruption which is being played.

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I think permanent-based disruption has long been both part of the format and entirely viable. Also, eight cards do not constitute a "shell."

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I think permanent-based disruption has long been both part of the format and entirely viable. Also, eight cards do not constitute a "shell."

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4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force is kind of a shell.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force is kind of a shell.

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I don't know that I agree with you. You're still looking at a "shell" that encompasses anything from Miracles to High Tide to S&T to Berserk Poison.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I don't know that I agree with you. You're still looking at a "shell" that encompasses anything from Miracles to High Tide to S&T to Berserk Poison.

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We are talking in broad generalizations here but if you say force/brainstorm/ponder as a shell then the win wondition isn't what we are talking about because the win condition varies per playstyle and meta. The shell is a blue based cantrip engine with force of will...fill the rest in was needed.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

We are talking in broad generalizations here but if you say force/brainstorm/ponder as a shell then the win wondition isn't what we are talking about because the win condition varies per playstyle and meta. The shell is a blue based cantrip engine with force of will...fill the rest in was needed.

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Thats like saying Tin Fins (with Force) and Miracles are just the same deck trying to win in different ways...

Well tin fins doesn't play force. I'd argue that brainstorm/ponder/probe is certainly a shell as well. Tin fins and storm are both very similar decks with varying win conditions. Basically every blue deck at this point is play brainstorm, ponder, and probe or force (or both in derp Delver decks). Just because miracles and grixis have varying win conditions doesn't mean games don't look very similar. Basically spend the first couple turns durdling with cantrips and maybe forcing or removing things while you do it, them establish your board and win the game. Do the same thing with tin fins/storm except instead of removal they use discard before they win. Congratulations. You now have the legacy format

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Just because miracles and grixis have varying win conditions doesn't mean games don't look very similar.

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No, they really don't.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Basically spend the first couple turns durdling with cantrips and maybe forcing or removing things while you do it, them establish your board and win the game. Do the same thing with tin fins/storm except instead of removal they use discard before they win. Congratulations. You now have the legacy format

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You might as well say, "Maverick and High Tide play games exactly the same way. They stop their opponents from playing good cards and build up a land base before killing the opponent."

Your argument follows a really reductive line of reasoning. At what point do decks diverge practically in the methods they use to disrupt, threaten, lock, or otherwise win the game against the opponent if all that matters to your argument is the methods they use to develop their game plans? Why is the focus on the cards that enable decks to develop their game plans consistently and not on the cards they use to do those other things? Why doesn't anyone express the same vexation over fetchlands or duals?

Utility cards provide utility. They are not a shell. They are not the engine decks use to win. They enable a variety of (often unique) engines and playstyles, but that's very different from saying that they are the engines that win the game themselves. If you go down that road, it's really not difficult to say that decks that play lands are all using the same engine to win the game: they accumulate resources using uncounterable permanents, then use those resources to play cards that damage or hobble the opponent until the game's over.

And again, the cards in question comprise at most just over a quarter of each deck of which they are a part (I can't imagine how Gitaxian Probe and Force of Will became part of the debate). Why that bothers people so much I really don't understand. Maybe it's just that I've gotten hosed by Eldrazi and D&T enough times to see that the so-called cartel is by no means inviolable.

Again, I'm not trying to be snide with this; I just don't see any merit to the argument that cards that increase consistency are the things that define decks and playstyles. Sure, they enable those decks and playstyles—perhaps they're what define the format for a lot of people—but that's very different from saying that they define the decks that run them.

It's worth pointing out that every cantrip takes a slot that's rather more useful if it holds a piece of permission or business. The trouble is that decks that run cantrips can't play added permission or business without coming apart at the seams. D&T, Eldrazi, Mav, Elves, Painter, Dredge, and Lands don't seem to have that problem.

Ronald, my man, my main dude, when I used the term "broad generalization" I meant exactly that. A broad generalization of decktypes in the legacy meta game. We are also talking about the DtB section which means that Tin Fins is not apart of the conversation.

Tier 3 decks have not been tested to be optimal or are just not as powerful as the tier 1 strategies.

Meagadeus is exactly right with his last post in that at a very basic level the blue shell plays the same set of cards or "shell" as we have been saying.

My excitement with the current mets is that every deck doesn't have to start with 4xbrainstorm and all of the cards that the one mana instant implies i.e. Blue duals, blue fetches, force/ponder/jace/whatever.

Going back to my post I was excited that there was a blue deck, a chalice deck, and two wasteland/port prison decks. lots of non blue, hurray!

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Maybe the actual revelation of this thread will be for the community to realize that mainboard, versitile, artifact and enchantment hate is something that needs to be considered seeing how every deck in the DtB fourm(and most of the Established decks as well) have main board targets.

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Mind coming over to the Elves thread, because I am sick repeating that more Rec.Sages are valuable because of all the targets in the meta and relying on just 1 is no proper way to adress the flood of targets?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Mind coming over to the Elves thread, because I am sick repeating that more Rec.Sages are valuable because of all the targets in the meta and relying on just 1 is no proper way to adress the flood of targets?

Thanks

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Hey, we've been telling you to start your gangsta rapping for the longest time now. You've only got yourself to blame, mister.

Well everybody in the non-blue camp must feel great at the moment. Cards have been so pushed lately, just look at d&t they got Thalia 2.0, Recruiter and Sanctum Prelate. When has a deck gotten so many new powerful tools in such a short timespan?

I don#t understand how think it's better to have more chalice and wasteland/port decks than decks with cantrips. I for one like to play against the latter much more.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Hey, we've been telling you to start your gangsta rapping for the longest time now. You've only got yourself to blame, mister.

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I am trying new paths like a feature artist on my next smash hit ;)

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

Well everybody in the non-blue camp must feel great at the moment. Cards have been so pushed lately, just look at d&t they got Thalia 2.0, Recruiter and Sanctum Prelate. When has a deck gotten so many new powerful tools in such a short timespan?

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Correction: D&T players are happy. Been ages since Elves saw something on the level of this year's D&T madness - 2012 with DRS, Decay, Hoof which put the deck on the map again. After that we've gotten like... Cavern which is harder to utilize than in eg. Goblins or Eldrazi. Maybe Shaman of the Pack if that counts.

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

I don't understand how think it's better to have more chalice and wasteland/port decks than decks with cantrips. I for one like to play against the latter much more.

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Waste/Port decks are okay IME, but CBTop/Chalice is often land something before the lockout card lands, "have fun" drawing a card a turn until you die.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Correction: D&T players are happy. Been ages since Elves saw something on the level of this year's D&T madness - 2012 with DRS, Decay, Hoof which put the deck on the map again. After that we've gotten like... Cavern which is harder to utilize than in eg. Goblins or Eldrazi. Maybe Shaman of the Pack if that counts.

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I'd argue Reclamation Sage is probably the best card Elves has gotten recently. Your point stands though, but the Elves shell doesn't really have many flex slots to be fair. At least not in its current shell(s).

Elves also benefitted greatly from the changes to the Legendary supertype. Obviously Lands benefitted more, but really only those two decks saw a significant benefit from the change.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Maybe the actual revelation of this thread will be for the community to realize that mainboard, versitile, artifact and enchantment hate is something that needs to be considered seeing how every deck in the DtB fourm(and most of the Established decks as well) have main board targets.

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I agree with this statement here, however the one issue that I have with this is that as long as decay exists, like tarmogoyf being the best vanilla dude, there is not much else that is even worth running. I've brewed decks up and 2-3 vindicate and just thought to myself, this is honestly just better off being decay most of the time. Obviously decay is less flexible, but being instant gets around the port decks and uncounterable has its obvious benefits. So I agree that the format is hitting a point where having a catch all removal spell is important, the problem is that decay is far and away the best one, with probably councils judgement trailing fairly far behind.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Correction: D&T players are happy. Been ages since Elves saw something on the level of this year's D&T madness - 2012 with DRS, Decay, Hoof which put the deck on the map again. After that we've gotten like... Cavern which is harder to utilize than in eg. Goblins or Eldrazi. Maybe Shaman of the Pack if that counts.

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Ex-Goblins player here (:cry:), please don't complain about Elves not getting enough love from Wotc.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Ronald, my man, my main dude, when I used the term "broad generalization" I meant exactly that. A broad generalization of decktypes in the legacy meta game. We are also talking about the DtB section which means that Tin Fins is not apart of the conversation.

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TinFins is always part of the conversation!

What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, how the format has changed, but really it hasn't, and it still sucks, unless you like how it is and then it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I don't know that I agree with you. You're still looking at a "shell" that encompasses anything from Miracles to High Tide to S&T to Berserk Poison.

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It's the shell that keeps you from being flooded, or mana screwed. While asmadi guy draws 5 lands in 7 draw steps and goes to the bar. It's the shell that lets a 9 year old Brainstorm into 2 Invigorates and put back 2 extra lands in a flurry of skill intensive, while the not-blue player can't hit his 3rd land drop in his 23 land deck and gets wrecked by a fetus.