[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

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Originally Posted by DrHealex

Would it be sensible( or has it already been tested) to remove ichorid and thug, and replace them with life from the loam and bloodghast?

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Casting Thug is pretty insane, and dredge 3 vs dredge 4 is not irrelevant. If Loam was an integral part of your gameplan, you'd probably need to either run additional lands or play a Salvage to dredge up anyway. Bloodghast isn't nearly as good as Ichorid for building up Zombies or providing a clock.

I want Tireless Tribe in my opening hand every game and don't understand why you wouldn't play four. That dude just does not get fatigued while he hangs out in blocking Tarmogoyf.

Chain of Vapor is better than Nature's Claim because they are functionally the same card (get Leyline out of play for at least a turn, then do something broken and dumb) but Chain also gets any Yixlid Jailers running around.

Maindeck DR targets are still loose.

Terastodon is superior to Primus because it's so much easier to destroy multiple annoying permanents. With Primus, you need Therapy and possibly a second Dread Return; Terastodon just blows up everything.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomeoba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Careful Study
1 Darkblast

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Terastodon
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flame-kin Zealot
3 Leyline of the Void

You could board Firestorm over Leyline if you wanted, but you'd probably be cutting Imps for them in most matchups, which isn't a huge upgrade.

Hi frogboy and thanks for voicing your insight about the terrastodon. I've used to run Primus, but of all the games I've played, I needed him like.. twice, therefore just decided to cut him, and focus more into the more common things that I do face. I do agree about the vapor, I am favoring this over claim simply due to higher chance to open up with a mana source that can produce blue.

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Originally Posted by frogboy

3 Tarnished Citadel

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If you don't mind, I was wondering if this choice is simply for your metagame, or do you just feel as if the lifeloss is insignifficant? I am wondering, because, even though you and I both agree about the important of tribe and how its important to max, specially with Tarmogoyf is so common to see. With decks like Zoo that a lot of people are actually running, dont you think you are making it easier for them to out race you?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Zappa

Hi frogboy and thanks for voicing your insight about the terrastodon. I've used to run Primus, but of all the games I've played, I needed him like.. twice, therefore just decided to cut him, and focus more into the more common things that I do face. I do agree about the vapor, I am favoring this over claim simply due to higher chance to open up with a mana source that can produce blue.



If you don't mind, I was wondering if this choice is simply for your metagame, or do you just feel as if the lifeloss is insignifficant? I am wondering, because, even though you and I both agree about the important of tribe and how its important to max, specially with Tarmogoyf is so common to see. With decks like Zoo that a lot of people are actually running, dont you think you are making it easier for them to out race you?

Thanks.

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The lifeloss is usually insignificant. If they are able to be doing 14-17 damage to you, they probably have they game anyways. Especially if you run flame kin in your list, all thats needed is just one turn to win the game.

Yeah like if I tap Citadel for mana a second time, it means I'm casting a draw spell and they are just all kinds of dead.

edit: I was losing more games because I had to mulligan because I couldn't cast my spells than because my lands randomly sometimes Bolted me.

I've come close with Tarnished Citadel and probably would have lost to better players. I only won because he tried to burn out Tribe (oops). But it was this awkward game where I was casting multiple Thugs and Narcoemeobas trying to stay alive.

Hey Everybody,
I'm running LEDless Dredge for a while now and i figured out that its good to have a sceond Sphinx of the lost truths. Often I'm in my "comboturn" and i stuck because i have no possibility to dredge again and no sphinx in my graveyard or in play.

My current list:

15 lands
4 city
4 mines
4 colloseum
3 tarnished citadel

4 troll
4 S. Imp
2 Dark Blast
1 Thug

4 study
2 Breakthrough
4 Nacro
2 Sphinx
1 Iona, Shield of emeria
4 Bridge
3 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imps
3 Tireless Tribe
4 therapy
1 Flamehin Zealot

board:
3 Grudge
3 Firestorm
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Iona. yes the second, they are doing very well against almost every deck
1 Angel of Despair
3 chain of vapor


What do you think? 6 discardoutlets enough? 3,3 Tribe and PImp?

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Originally Posted by Spritemare

What do you think? 6 discardoutlets enough? 3,3 Tribe and PImp?

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I play with 4 PImp and 2 Tribe. You could also discard with Careful Study and Cabal Therapy.
Why do you have 4 DR-target and only 3 DR? I suggest to put another breakthrough instead of sphinx or flamekin. And usually I don't need more than one breakthrough to win.

I think 3 Tribes are awesome. They do a great work almost against every aggro deck. They stall Goblins, Merfolk and Cards like Nacatle, Nimble Mongoose and early Goyfs. thats why i split it into 3-3. I'm already convienced that 4 Tribes would be even better.

The point that i'm runing 3 DR but 4 possible targets: in best case you are able to win when you dredge and than 3 Nacro's for DR targeting FKZ and win. But when you have no FKZ, it's good to have a shinx to continue dredge. If neither of them are in your GY, you need Iona to go Save. I would lovely run more DR and even more targets, but thats not possible i think.

Another point i want to imagine is that i don't like Ichorids themselves. mostly they are just like "attack for 40 dmg"(winmore) but only in some games, maybe 5-10%, you need to reanimate them to pay the cost of DR. Maybe you could cut them to play other good stuff, like land #16, 1-2 deep analysis or other cards. Tolarian winds seems to be very nice, but i don't think cc2 is good for deck.

[sorry if my english is not perfect, i'm just a german guy whose english is not the best at all ;)]

I've been playing non-led Ichorid for almost an year now and i don't recommend you to cut on ichorid. I've won countless games just on the back of ichorid attacking, you're not going to combo off every game, and in cases you are not going off, ichorid becomes real gold.

That's my perspective, also i don't think you need all 4 dread return targets, i'm playing two, and some people cut to 0. At this moment i'm playing FKZ and empyrial archangel (wich a lot of people don't like, but it's been pretty good for me). I'm thinking about adding a terastodon to the sb also.

Hope some of this helps.

@Spritemare

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Originally Posted by Spritemare

I think 3 Tribes are awesome.

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I Agree with you about the tribes. I've actually decided to go on a 3:4 split in favor of tribe vs putrid imp.

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Originally Posted by Spritemare

The point that i'm runing 3 DR but 4 possible targets

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Would have to disagree on this, 4 dread return targets is way over kill and also takes up way too much main deck slots.

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Originally Posted by Spritemare

Another point i want to imagine is that i don't like Ichorids themselves. mostly they are just like "attack for 40 dmg"(winmore)

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Ichorids, I wouldn't touch, they help generate tokens by themselves, and they're also the ones that helps you put the pressure on the opponent to blow up his crypts early.

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Ichorids, I wouldn't touch, they help generate tokens by themselves, and they're also the ones that helps you put the pressure on the opponent to blow up his crypts early.

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When the deck doesn't make cray things, Ichorid is a one man army, creating tokens and making pressure all by himself. In my point of view he is one of the most, if not the most important card in the deck...

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Originally Posted by claudio.r

I've been playing non-led Ichorid for almost an year now and i don't recommend you to cut on ichorid. I've won countless games just on the back of ichorid attacking, you're not going to combo off every game, and in cases you are not going off, ichorid becomes real gold.

That's my perspective, also i don't think you need all 4 dread return targets, i'm playing two, and some people cut to 0. At this moment i'm playing FKZ and empyrial archangel (wich a lot of people don't like, but it's been pretty good for me). I'm thinking about adding a terastodon to the sb also.

Hope some of this helps.

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Ok I see, i must not cut Ichorid, i just suggest it ;) but why playing only 3 copies of the 3/1 haste creature if it is really that important?

@Empyrial Archangel: I thought about it for a while and i'm not sure if its way better than iona. I mean, prohibit the opp to cast spells of a certain color is more Powerful in most of the matchups.

3 DR and 4 targets: I recommend you to try it out, i like it very much :)

The way i see it, 3 ichorids is the right number, you want to ensure you get 1 or 2 in the graveyard, but you really don't more than that, and you almost always don't want to see them in your opening hand. Quickly resuming you want to dredge into them and not be drawing them; also you don't to see 3 of them, because most of the times you will not have a way to feed them. So i think 3 is the right number.

Regardng Iona... well, to be honest i didn't test Iona at all, i've been happy with archangel, until now, the only deck that as been able to get past trough it was goblins.... against merfolk and zoo archangel is doing well. But i will test it ! Maybe i'm losing the wagon here.

I'm currently happy with only 2 dread return targets, or should i say 6, because a dread returned GGT sometimes can be quite the bad ass and will win games for you.

How are you guys doing with FKZ... i'm using it less and less, it's useful sometimes, but not quite as i would like it to be... wha't your opinion on that ?

Quick post based on personal experience.

- Iona IS that awsome. Just try it. I play 2.
- 4 Ichorid si too much for my taste. I play 3.
- FKZ is win more except against combo. But the deck is fast enough to fight combo. And Iona helps a lot. I don't use FKZ any more.
- 4 Tireless Tribes and 4 Putrid Imp are a must. The only creature that you want to see every match in your opening hand is Tireless Tribe (and a Troll to go with it).

Bonus:
- I was playing 3 Cabal Therapy. Big mistake. 4 is the correct number.

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Originally Posted by Grillo

Quick post based on personal experience.

- Iona IS that awsome. Just try it. I play 2.
- 4 Ichorid si too much for my taste. I play 3.
- FKZ is win more except against combo. But the deck is fast enough to fight combo. And Iona helps a lot. I don't use FKZ any more.
- 4 Tireless Tribes and 4 Putrid Imp are a must. The only creature that you want to see every match in your opening hand is Tireless Tribe (and a Troll to go with it).

Bonus:
- I was playing 3 Cabal Therapy. Big mistake. 4 is the correct number.

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Yeah, i like Iona, too ;)

But my question to you: You play 4 Tribe + 4 PImp+ 2 Iona? so what did you cut? Ok, the FKZ, but what else??
In my opinion the FKZ is way to important to be cut! I'll never cut it because its the reason why the get can come from 0 to 100, if you know what i mean. If you dont have him, you just produce some tokens and say go. So you give you opp the chance to solve the situation by playing EE, Wrath, kill you (-> ANT/other combo like dreamhalls) or anything else.

I'm sure you will also win without FKZ by reanimating Iona oder Archangel, but you didnt win until you opp has 0 or less life...so why giving the opp the chance? Makes no sense at all, hm? :)

Even when you don't have FKZ and you don't reanimate any creature (wich will happens more than the previous two cases) you can still win pretty fast just making tokens and attacking with ichorid. Try not to see this deck as a combo deck, but more like an aggro deck with a lot of sinergy.

What about running sphinx of lost truths as a DR target? I have been testing that one for a while now and it seems pretty good.

Sphinx occupies, more or less, the same space as cephalid sage used to. It ensures you keep dredging until you can combo, or have serious advantage. Also it gives a large flying body, wich is never bad. I really don't know if you want to cut on Iona or Archangel, or whatever DR targets you are running. Having Sphinx implies you are playing FKZ also to maximize its use...

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Originally Posted by claudio.r

Even when you don't have FKZ and you don't reanimate any creature (wich will happens more than the previous two cases) you can still win pretty fast just making tokens and attacking with ichorid. Try not to see this deck as a combo deck, but more like an aggro deck with a lot of sinergy.

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I see it like an Aggro-Combo deck ;)
I know that you often win by producing a mass of tokens and then overrun you opp. But i like to have a FKZ in my deck because its a good option for an immediate win.
I suggest playing a sphinx is a must.

@Bloodghast: Pretty bad, i dont like them. They force you to play cards like Darkmoor Salvage, which you hust dont want to play. It's just bad. And you have to play U. Paradise, which is, in my opinion worse than other rainbow lands because you have to bounce it.

I will try to put in a 4th Tribe, they are freaking awesome. But i dont want PImp reduce to 2, because you need some creatures for ichorid.

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Originally Posted by Spritemare

Yeah, i like Iona, too ;)

But my question to you: You play 4 Tribe + 4 PImp+ 2 Iona? so what did you cut? Ok, the FKZ, but what else??

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This is my deck list:

creature [28]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
sorcery [14]
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
enchantment [4]
4 Bridge from Below
land [14]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
60 cards
Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Wispmare
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
15 cards

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Originally Posted by Spritemare

So you give you opp the chance to solve the situation by playing EE, Wrath, kill you (-> ANT/other combo like dreamhalls) or anything else.

I'm sure you will also win without FKZ by reanimating Iona oder Archangel, but you didnt win until you opp has 0 or less life...so why giving the opp the chance? Makes no sense at all, hm? :)

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Well, EE will thwart your plan to win with tokens even if you reanimate a FKZ. Powder Keg, Propaganda, Elephant Grass will crush you too.
The thing is, the best DR targets are the ones that give utility and will eventually win you the game on their own. FKZ just make you win 1 turn earlier and relies on Bridges. Iona shuts down every mono color deck (that means you are not giving them chances to do anything), really disrupts other multicolor decks and will win the game within a couple of swings without the need for Bridges.

Besides, Iona is still good in games 2 and 3. FKZ is not.