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We are not quite sitting in the same boat but here is the list you asked for:
//Lands [22]
20 Mountains
2 Chrome Mox
each 4:
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Chieftain, WInstigator, Matron, Ringleader, Lightning Bolt
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
//Sideboard [15]
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Gravehate (Leyline or Relic)
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Blood Moon
thanks alot! :)
I would play at least one more land. Probably cutting a chieftain.
Mox usually imprints redundant or (at the time) unneeded goblins. If you have Lackey and Instigator, imprint the Lackey and play the Instigator. 2 Warchiefs and a Chieftain... take your choice and get the others out earlier than normal. If you start with a SCG but no way to cheat him in then imprint him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Mox is a 2-of at MOST. When I use it I remove 1 Wasteland and 1 Port.
Mox is best in your opening hand but typically useful until turn 4. Afterwards you hope it gets tucked by Ringleader...
First off, your advice to Augustas was spot on. Way better than anything I said...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
However I think you were a bit harsh to jrw. I've read every report he's posted here and he has played this deck HARD. I doubt luck played more than a small part in his 4th place finish.
Once again your advice (on the number of RR cards) was great, but your math is a little off. Lackey, Instigator, and Vial all cheat out goblins. Who needs RR when you have a Vial @3? Jrw's success with that build implies to me that he can recognize a poor hand from one that will get there and mulligans accordingly. I do think that 8 colorless sources seems like 2 too many based on the number of RR described...
With 20-22 lands in the deck, why not use Mox Diamond? It also lets you splash other colors.
I was looking through my surplus box earlier and i came across this card,
Hungry Spriggan.
Creature - Goblin Warrior,
2 colourless, 1 green to cast,
1/1,
Trample,
Whenever hungry spriggan attacks it gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
is this goblin any good for a green splash with 8 colourless lands ( 4 wastelands, 4 rishadan ports )?
It's probably sub optimal, but a 4/4 attacking goblin for 3 mana seems good.
Thanks for the reaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Probably not because it doesn't do anything except attackQuote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
Well, so does piledriver, but theres probably better choices that don't need you to splash another colour
After doing some testing on MWS with
4 Badlands
4 BS Mire
4 Waste
3 Port
8 Mountain
23 Lands
Standard Core
26
3 MWM
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Gempalm
1 Goblin Chieftain
I think sharpshooter is really cool especially with snapcaster now being everyones favourite 1-toughness guy
Stingscourger is probably not really a maindeck card, it just doesn't seem that useful this format, at least from my limited experience
Derp Prospector is a bit win-more as most of the time it's just a wild cantor
Also I think the 4th port is worth having, and it's weird having 4 badlands with no MB black cards (JK, wort seems good and 2 warren weirding because reanimator) (Although if reanimator is highly played then why take out stingscourger? I dunno :P)
From now on I'm going to try
3 MWM
1 Sharpshooter
3 Gempalm
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Wort
2 Warren Weirding
-1 Fetchland +1 Rishadan Port
Doesn't matter. We cheat them into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
How's your testing been going, jrw1985?
If that was an argument you would run 4 SGCs.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Why would he need to run 4 SGCs to make his argument valid? I don't see how that follows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
I think the logic would be: If the manacost of our goblins don't matter, because we cheat them into play, then we should maximize the chances of having one of your best high-costing goblins on your hand, therefore playing 4 SGC.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBlade
Of course, the logic is flawed because the premise was wrong to begin with, once we don't ALWAYS cheat them into play.
I think this discussion about running how many R producing lands is pretty useless, and have been done before to exhaustion. There are people who are comfortable running 14 Mountains with 2-4 Instigators, and there are others who wouldn't go below 16, even without them.
I think the logic would be: If the manacost of our goblins don't matter, because we cheat them into play, then we should maximize the chances of having one of your best high-costing goblins on your hand, therefore playing 4 SGC.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxBlade
Of course, the logic is flawed because the premise was wrong to begin with, once we don't ALWAYS cheat them into play.
I think this discussion about running how many R producing lands is pretty useless, and have been done before to exhaustion. There are people who are comfortable running 14 Mountains with 2-4 Instigators, and there are others who wouldn't go below 16, even without them.
I would even go a step further and say even if that premise was true, you still wouldn't necessarily want 4 SGCs anyway because there are other things to consider depending on what you want the deck to do and what the meta is.
SGC is a powerful card and even in a build with 4 lackey, 4 instigator, 4 vials - that still doesn't mean you want to sacrifice other cards to make space for a 4th one.
I could be wrong (and correct me if I am) but Lejay you seem to be trolling jrw1985. You might disagree with his philosophy on goblins, but that doesn't mean he's a bad deck builder or that his theory craft is wrong because you don't agree with it. He's proven that it works with testing and tournament results and his argument & philosophy stands because of that. Your disingenuous arguments aren't going to change that.
This is the quick report on winning bad matchups, and losing to a good one:
List (not recommended):
17 Mountains
4 Waste
1 Port
Core 25 (-1 Piledriver)
4 Instigator, Gemapalm
3 Blood Moon
1 Chieftain, Stingscourger
SB:
3 Surgical
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Needle
1 Chaos Warp
1 Sharpshooter
4 Knesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Pyroblast
Match 1 – UW Stoneblade
Game 1 – I lead with Lackey, He with Visions. I hit for Warchief + Matron. He play land and passes. I swing, he plays Sprite. I Gempalm it, he takes, draws and scoops. My friend playing next to me with TES combed T1, and had a longer game than me.
+Shooter, + Tuktuk, + something, -3 Blood Moon
Game 2 - He has a slow start, and I manage to connect my 2nd Lackey. Unfortunately, dropping only Warchief. Later, I had to choose between Gempalming a Stutter, or loosing Lackey, and chose the 1st, which was wrong, because Stoneforge punished me. It didn’t help that I got 6 lands in a row.
Game 3 – I go to 6, and he to 5. I start with Lackey, he with FoW + Visions. My turn 5 I had Warchief, Ringleader, Instigator and Matron hitting, with Warchief, Instigator and SGC on hand. He took all. I refused to land a goblin, because he had 3 lands. His turn he Warth of God’d. I untap and play SGC. He STP it. I play Warchief + Instigator. He was at 6, and lost it.
1-0
Match 2 – Merfolk
Game 1 – My Lackey connects into Matron for Gempalm, and then Piledriver got down, and the game was over quickly.
+4 Knesis, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Shooter, -1 Gempalm, -1 Sting, -1 Chieftain, -3 Bloodmoon, -1 something.
Game 2 – He gets, Vial, Daze my Vial, I do nothing T2, and he Standstill’s. I break with Matron. He goes nuts with lords, and 2 turns later had 5 of them + Sylvergill. My Knesis was useless.
Game 3 – I have Mountain, Lackey, Instigator, Piledriver, Knesis, Shooter (6). He drops Vial, I draw Gempalm, and Lackey coneects. I think I was wrong here, and dropped Instigator. He played Mutavault. I drew Vial, and attacked with Gator. He BeB’d It, then Daze’d my vial. He tapped for Jitte. I drew Ringleader and hit with lackey. He Vialed Phantasmal Image. I Knesis it, and land Piledriver. He gets a lord, and Cursecatcher. I draw my 2nd land. He equips Jitte. I Gempalm the Lord, and draw nothing for my turn (vial). He finds a Dismember for Piledriver, and I lose to Jitte from there. Don’t know if getting Instigator was the right move T2, but having my 2nd land by turn 4th turn seriously harmed me.
1-1
Match 3 – Elves
Game 1 – He starts with Llanowar, I mull and lead with nothing. He gets another one. I play Piledriver. He goes nuts, but not enough to kill me. I play a dude, and he plays Emrakul.
+4 Knesis, +1 Shooter, +1 Needle, +1 Scrapper, -3 Moon, -4 Vial
Game 2 – I start with Lackey. He blocks with Llanowar. I play another one. He plays another and Symbiotic. I play Chieftain. He blocks and bounces, and play 2 Elves. I play Warchief. He does the same thing. He is stuck with 2 lands, and needs to bounce his guys every turn. When he tries Glimpse, he draws some cards, but stops with 6 guys on the table, with 6 life. I draw a Matron, and go for Sharpshooter. He can’t block effectively, and dies.
Game 3 – He mulls a lot. I kept 2 lands, 2 Ringleaders, Stingscourger, Gempalm, Knesis. He goes awfully slow. I land a Ringleader when he plays 2 Elfes, then Symbiotic. I Knesis the other 2 in response, then Gempalm the Insect, and Matron for another Gempalm. He can’t recover.
2-1
Match 4 – Canadian
Game 1 – He leads with Delver, I with Lackey, which he Bolts. I take 1 T2, but he Brainstorms and flips Delver T3. My Warchief meets Fire/Ice, and he gets another Delver. My 3rd and last goblin of the match was a Matron, which resolved for Ringleader, and bought me 0 Goblins.
+2 Knesis, +2 Pyroblast, -1 Gempalm, -1 Stinger, -1Instigator, -1 Piledriver
Game 2 – I remember only he having a Lavamancer, which I get to kill with 1 goblin into play. Then the game goes back and forth, but when he is low on cards, I cast Blood Moon, and lock him out. Next turn Ringleader brought me 4 cards, so that should be enough, but nonetheless, Moon rocked. This game I pyroblasted a Brainstorm =]
+2 Knesis, -2 Instigator
Game 3 - He plays Tropical and Ponder. I Waste it. He plays Fetch and Delver. I play land. He play volc. I play mountain. My hand had 2 Ringleaders, Matron, Knesis, Moon, Pyroblast and lands. He hits me for 3, and plays another Delver, and a Waste. I Knesis both Delvers. He FoW’s, I pyroblast. He was left with 2 cards. I went for it, and played Blood Moon with 3 lands. It resolved, and “soon” after I won. ( A Ringleader resolved, another get Dazed, he bolted a piledriver, and it took 6-7 turns to kill him, but it was a sure deal).
3-1
Match 5 – Team Italia
Game 1 – He leads with Inquisition of Kolziek, nabbing Lackey. I Vial. He Stoneforges. I Instigator. He Lavamancers + Batterskull. I died quite fast after he equipped next turn UR Sword on Batterskull, after 2 Hymns…
+4 Knesis, +1 Shooter, +1 Scrapper, +1 Needle, -4 Instigator, -1 Chieftain, -1 Gempalm, -1 Sting
Game 2 – I lead with Lackey, He STP. I play another. He plays Burreton Forge Tender (crap). I play Piledriver. He plays Bob. I Gempalm it. He passes. I play Ringleader, that gets me Tuktuk+Sting =/. He Hymns and gets Tuktuk + SGC… this games takes a freaking lot of time. He gets Top. I get Vial. He gets Bob and Grim. With 0 cards, I draw Gempalm, that kill Bob (online for 2 turns), draw a Ringleader, Vial it, nab a Matron only, and cast for SGC. He doesn’t have Hymn. I Vial it, and kill a Grim I guess. He draws, and draws from top, and gets 2 guys. I draw Knesis, and target his both guys. He sacrifices BFT to save them. Next turn I draw another one, and clear his board. He gets now a Grim with Collar, but 2 turns later, he couldn’t handle all my weenies.
Game 3 – I keep Vial, Lackey, Ringleader,Gempalm, Instigator, Moon and Mountain. He passes. I play Vial. He Stoneforges for Jitte. I up Vial and pass. He passes. I play lackey, and passes. He “vials” Batterskull. He hits, and drop Gempalm. I get a land and Gempalm it. He plays 2 Figure of Destinies, and hits again. I play Blood Moon. He ups the Figures and hits me. I Vial matron, getting Tuktuk, blocking a Figure with Matron+Driver, taking 6, going low. I Vial Tuktuk on Batterskull. He plays Jitte. I Vial Ringleader, and start hitting. He equips Jitte on Stoneforge and hits. I gempalm it. He equips on Figure. I Vial a SGC and kill Figure. He drops from 28 really fast.
4-1
Match 6 – Lands
Game 1- I keep Vial, Mountain, Lackey, Instigator, Warchief, Ringleader and Blood Moon. He ledas with lands. I play Vial. He plays lands. I pass. He plays lands. I Pass (he has some Mazes). He plays some lands. I play a 2nd land. He plays some lands. I play Blood Moon. He scoops.
+5 Gravehate, +1 Tuktuk, +1 Needle, -3 Gempal, -1 Sting, -3 Ringleader
Game 2 – He Mox+Cycling + Tapland. I Lackey. He does somethings and have a Maze. I do nothing. He draws from a Canopy, and has another Mox, 2 Exploration and a Manabound next turn, empting his hand. I start swinging for 2, not drawing goblins, holding a Faerie. He, with 1 card, Tutors for a Crucible. I remove Canopy and another good land. He plays the other ones, but they’re useless. 2 turns later he drew nothing, while I swung with my team, and killed him.
I Should have boarded Shooter here too, since it flat out wins against Tabernacle.
5-1
Match 7 – TES
Game 1 – I know what he is playing so mull into and “ok” hand, on the play. 1st turn Lackey. He Ponders. I Waste+ Piledriver. He Brainstorms. I hit, getting Gempalm down, casting Piledriver number 2. He don’t get a business spell (I think) and scoops.
+gravehate+pyroblast+Shooter,-4Gempalm,-4Ringleader
Game 2 – I keep 2 Lackey, Vial, Blood Moon, 2 Mountains and Surgical, hoping to draw something. He Brainstorms. I Lackey. He passes. I draw a SGC, that comes into play. He cast Ritual + Ad Nausem (going to 17 (2 City activation)). Nauseam revelas: Burning Wish, Chant, Infernal, Infernal, Tendrils, Ad Nauseam. Hell yeah! I’m great at this game! He then showed me he had LED and Ritual, but was afraid of Mindbreak Trap. A Petal would probably have won the game for him there.
6-1
That got me to 3rd (1st to 4th were 6-1) winning 12 boosters and a UG Shockland.
And this is it. The art of winning bad Matchups.
I don’t recommend the list to anyone. I don’t think Instigators played well, neither think Blood Moons are worth MD Slots, while Knesis might be a different story.
I’m quite tired from writing this all, after having played all these rounds today, so am going to bed. Cya.
Sweet report, and congrats.
Congratulations on the fine result!
Too bad Instigator didn't do much for you. One of the reasons why I like Instigator personally is that it makes otherwise unplayable hands (namely those without Lackey or Vial) playable against a wide range of decks. Since you don't seem to have trouble getting Lackey in your starting hand most of the time (14/19 games), I was wondering if you consider that Lackey ratio above average, or if you can consistantly get it that often on the average? And, if the latter is the case, I would love to hear about any mulligan rules of thumb you use? I would love to get Lackey, or hands with multiple Lackeys or Lackey+Vial, as often as that, but maybe I don't mulligan aggresively enough.
Quote:
Match 1
Game 1 – I lead with Lackey,
Game 2 - ... I manage to connect my 2nd Lackey.
Game 3 – .... I start with Lackey,
Match 2
Game 1 – My Lackey connects
Game 3 – I have Mountain, Lackey, ...
Match 3
Game 2 – I start with Lackey.
Match 4
Game 1 – He leads with Delver, I with Lackey,
Match 5
Game 1 – He leads with Inquisition of Kolziek, nabbing Lackey.
Game 2 – I lead with Lackey,
Game 3 – I keep Vial, Lackey, ...
Match 6
Game 1- I keep Vial, Mountain, Lackey, ...
Game 2 – He Mox+Cycling + Tapland. I Lackey.
Match 7
Game 1 – ... 1st turn Lackey
Game 2 – I keep 2 Lackey, Vial, ...
I myself have been trying an instigator build slightly diffrent than the one posted allready( -4 bolts/-1 instigator/-1 chieftain + 1 gempalm/stingscourger +4 goblin warchief) And have been having very solid results in testing. I have to agree with Hof I allmost never see the "double lacky effect" w/o instigators in the deck, and have found them to be a blessing given the amount of discard in the current meta. Another reason I happen to like him is the amount of combat tricks you can play with the first strike trigger.
@Hof: Yeah, I didn't realize during the tournament, but indeed I had a lot of Lackey hands. The Istigator build allow me to mulligan more safely, because an Instigator T2 on the play is good enough for me, to keep ramping later Warchief->Ringleader. Not that it happened... I did mulled once or twice on the 1st Match, once on the second (and should have mulled my hand game 2), 2 times on the 3rd, on the 4th and on the 6th, so that's quite a lot I think...
Thanks for the props.