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The finals list looks very similar to what I am running. Except I am using sacrifice removal as opposed to spot removal. And I dropped Deranged Hermit in favor of Broodmate Dragon but he runs both...
It does show that I need to change up my SB though. The Leyline plan just isnt very good and dilutes my strategy too much
@Arianrhod
Thanks for the review, I really appreciate it and totally see where you're going. I will try out most of these changes but they do seem pretty good.
Your assumptions are pretty spot on. There really isn't a ton of storm but a lot of burn, rug, maverick, high tide, sneak and show. Ppl bring wierd decks too sometimes. I do like that Druid though, he should help a lot vs combo.
The land changes may be tough for now as I dOnt have anymore savannahs or windswepts but I will make due.
Thanks will post updated list later!
@ Arianrhod Thanks for mentioning my Phoenix list as a starting point for a GBw build. I just use your Rector list as a starting point for the list I took to SCGVegas this weekend.
I went 6-2 getting 21st place with the following;
3 Academy Rector
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Faith's Fetters
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard;
1 Angel of Despair
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Extirpate
1 Humility
1 Memoricide
1 Perish
I'll give a quick run down of the event, but I didn't take any notes so I'll be leaving out a bunch of details.
Round 1 vs. Giovanni (Affinity)
G1: I'm on the play, I turn 1 blind therapy calling brainstorm... see Affinity and take a sigh of relief. He takes his turn, drops an artifact land, memnite, drum, signal pest.
I take my turn drop explorer, flashback therapy naming thoughcast, fetch out 2 lands play deed, followed by baneslayer the next turn, he scoops.
G2: He plays blimkmoth, drum, 3x memnite, signal pest... I play explorer off of a forest.
He swings I choose not to block, he looks confused, drops and artifact land. I take my turn play tower, sac explorer fetch two lands play curse of death's hold, GG.
1-0
Round 2 vs. Yurien (Belcher)
So I played Yurien at SCGPhoenix during the standard portion and I was his only lose for the day. (He ended up winning that event) He's a good guy and this was one of his first times playing Legacy... Of course he's on Belcher and I have no game against him.
G1: I play explorer and pass. He throws his hand on the table and is short 1 mana from belching me out, but has a ESG, Mox and another belcher in hand ready to kill me next turn if he draws anything. I manage to play tower sac explorer and play deed. This slows him down, because if he plays the mox I can sac deed in response to imprint forcing him to find another mana source. Yurien stalls out I mange to blow the deed for 4 destroying his on board belcher, I resolve Elspeth, begin the beat down and put another deed on the board. It's looking good for me as the turns progress but I never draw a therapy... He goes down to 2 Drops his hand and manages to belcher me.
G2: I mull down to 2 never having a hand against him he turn 1 make 16 goblins. GG.
1-1
Round 3 vs. Ryan (Rug Delver no basics)
G1: I don't really recall this match. I just remember play a baneslayer on 3 and moving on.
G2: Carpet of flowers does work I ramp out and beat down with Elspeth and Sigarda.
2-1
Round 4 vs. Tyler (Merfolk with Jace)
I know Tyler from Vegas, he's a local player and we FNM all the time.
G1: Tyler is on the quick beatdown and I have no game...
G2: We grind out I misplay with carpet, he counters my big things and drops Jace I draw no creatures to deal with Jace but have Tyler under Humility/Curse lock. Jace ultimates me, I still have a GSZ in my deck and a creature on the board so I don't scoop yet.. He shows me another Jace and a force and I scoop it up.
2-2
Round 5 vs. Luke (High Tide)
Luke is also a Las Vegas local who I've played with for many years. I don't know what he is on but I guess High Tide and I'm right.... Bad match up for me I think.
G1: Luke doesn't die to my early game and plays by himself for a bunch of turns. BRAIN FREEZE for the win......
G2: Grindy, Grindy , Grindy I manage to land an early Elspeth to put on some pressure, Luke goes for a turn 4 combo fizzles out and I manage to sneak the win.
G3: I play turn 1 Carpet, Turn 2 Chains... rip his hand/deck apart with extirpate, therapy, witness and nightmare. Beat down with tokens.
3-2
Round 6 vs. Brandon (RUG Delver no basics)
G1: Deed him out drop a monster win.
G2: More of the same... I want this match up all day.
4-2
Round 7 vs. Noah (Elves)
G1: Noah throws out a bunch of elves... I deed followed by a monster and another deed.
G2: Noah plays elves, I cast perish on 3 followed by curse of death's hold.
5-2
Round 8 vs. Jason (RUG Delver)
This is the first time I meet Jason but I know a bunch of his friends. He's an Arizona player and him and his brother manage a site devoted to supporting Magic in Arizona (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/) check it out.
G1: I shut Jason out with explorer, therapy, deed....The Evening Star.
G2: Jason out tempos me and Delver and burn get there.
G3: We play a grindy game of magic, I eventually land carpet, nightmare, chains and a number of other cards... but I'm at 3 life, I manage gain life off of fetters and plan on cycling it with deed, witness, nightmare. I have total control of the game from that point but time is called, we end with a draw but Jason gives it to me... Good guy.
6-2
So ended up in 21st place good for $100. I would totally play this deck again, I would change a few slots though.
-Kokusho, the Evening Star did nothing but beat in the air I would rather have a GSZ target in this slot, maybe bring Master of the Wild Hunt back in he seems really good now that tribal decks are making a comback.
-I really want a Leyline of Sanctity in my 75 somewhere, blecher is becoming too popular.
-I never cast Cranial Extraction or Memoricide, but I did board them in... Maybe these should become the leylines, need to test that more.
-Angel of Despair did nothing but divide my sideboard from my main deck.... Needs to get the boot.
Props:
-Carpet of Flowers and Chains of Mephistopheles if you do not have these in your Nic Fit deck you are playing a bad version, these cards did soooo much work for me this weekend. Get you Chains now while they are only $30-50 they will be going up soon.
Thanks for the report! How was Liliana, out of curiosity? We've been having a bit of a discussion about her lately.
I'm surprised you had so much trouble with Fish. It's always seemed like a pretty good matchup -- I guess having Jace does make a bit of a difference, but you can just shut him down with Fetters. Belcher is unfortunate, but there isn't too much we can do about that. Leyline does help a bit, but they can Wish for answers (they run Hull Breach, right?), and gobs kill you too, although obv. you have more outs to that than to the belcher itself.
High Tide is a hilarious matchup. Your game three is how it's supposed to go post-board every time. And yeah, RUG is a really, really fun matchup for my Rector White build. It's not even remotely fair.
I agree RE Angel of Despair. Her time has come and passed, I fear. I still like Kokusho. The furthest I'd be willing to budge is that I might try Yosei in his place, but IMO the Rector White version needs to have some kind of absurd lategame engine with Nightmare, because it gets stuck in stalemates so often. It needs to have something to punch through. Even if half the time Kokusho just flies for 5 and is generally unimpressive, that other half of the time he'll save your ass.
Cranial and Memoricide are pretty good vs combo -- they're also good vs Sneak/Show and Reanimator, which you didn't run into. If they were Leylines, you'd have been pretty annoyed to see either of those decks. Extirpates go a long way, but you need some additional extraction effects to really be able to beat those decks with any kind of reliability in my experience.
How was the Perish? It was kind of a filler spot for me because I didn't really know what else to put in, and I wanted something decent vs Maverick.
I'm going to run my Rector White in my local tonight, cutting Garruk Relentless for a Wood Elves (yes, it actually impressed me THAT much), and the Angel/Perish for a pair of Mindcensors in the board. I've been wanting to try Mindcensor for a while now, but I haven't gotten around to it -- figure now's as good of a time as any.
Has a high tide player ever cast Time Spiral with Chains out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I have always really like Lily... Our deck (especially with top) is probably the best top decker in the format Miracles is the only thing that really comes close. And lily puts players in topdeck mode and keeps them their until they answer her. Like Mega said, you dont always have to +1, she can just sit till you have things you dont mind discarding. And if I am against say, rug, and I am at 4 mana and we both have pretty full hands. I dont mind discarding a primetitan, deed, etc even if all they discard is a lightbolt. I can get back that card with recursion later when it is actually relevant, but that bolt is gone. They lose a card that would see use sometime soon, I pitch a bomb I can get later when I need it. And now they are that much closer to top deck mode, and lily got her +1 so she can -2 twice.
The thing with lily is, she is ALWAYS card advantage.
Worst case scenario: your opponent has 2 creatures. You play her, make them sac one and they you "cast fog" on your turn, cause they have to finish off lily.
Best case: You -2 your opponents only creature, then +1 every turn unless they cast a creature (then -2 them), putting your opponent in topdeck mode and clearing the board, while your are filtering with top and playing scary things.
The double black cc is the only really arguement I can see against her. Also, dont forget she is does go well with sun titan (but thats kinda win-more).
I agree with Magadeus on Lily. I have played 1-4 Lily in all my Nic Fit decks (I had 4 when I took 1st at a 1k) and the +1 doesn't need to be broken for her to be really good. Even though I play LftL in my GBu version, I think I only had Lily and LftL active together once every 20ish games. Lily + Top is what really makes her shine.
@Megadeus,
Oh yeah, if you read back to the start of the thread, I made a big case about Jace + Counters > Nic Fit. The best advice I can give you at fighting Jace is Garruk, Primal Hunter alongside Thoughtseize or REB/Pyro. Garruk is the anti-Jace. I personally nailed Jace.dec with Primeval Titan, 2 Treetop Villages, and Kodama of the North Tree. Trample is extremely relevant against Jace + Snap, Clique, SFM/Bskull, and most importantly: f**in Elspeth...
Hmmm... The trample does seem pretty good against them. I never thought about it like that. Primal Hunter though? Maybe I'll take Flippy Garruk (Who I have been underwhelmed with besides a few specific moments) and change to Big Garruk...Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
As for Liliana, when I first used the deck I played with 1 main and one side, and literally against every match up I was siding her in. Against Combo she eats away their hand, against control, she eats their hand, against tempo she does everything. If they are holding she eats their hand, and if they are attacking she gets rid of a dude. Against Maverick, is the same deal. Post Deed she is great because she just dominates with a clear board.
I have thought about a Thornling maybe. Is it just too cute?
Hello everyone! I've always kept track of legacy, but recently decided I'd try to explore the format a little deeper after a rut in T1. Nic Fit caught my eye after paging through nothing but broken linears, G/W and RUG, and I was wondering if anyone could answer a few questions:
1) Nic Fit seems predominantly defined by two tertiary colors* (with occasional solid GB lists popping up), white for rector (and the ensuing toolbox of enchantments) and red (for punishing fires and/or scapeshift/valakut. For the purposes of this question i'm asking about scapeshift, since I don't know what PFire does that the rest of your deck doesn't do or cares about anyway). Is there a method to which splash you play in which kind of metagame? So far, outside of valakut nic fit having a better DnT matchup and a better chance to "whoops" a linear combo deck thanks to its ability to accidentally the whole valakut kill, I don't see a lot of chatter on which one you'd play where. While "playstyle" certainly has points in the argument, I'd certainly think there's thoughts on what kind of meta you'd want the rector toolbox and what meta requires scapeshifting. Can anyone enlighten me?
Offhand it looks as if Jund Scapeshift has a better blue matchup (thanks to REBs and you guys not having to put up with MM anymore) at the expensive of a less dominating creature (and possibly sneak/show) matchup. Is this more or less correct?
2) would you take either one of these to an unknown metagame? If so, which one and why?
3) With stoneblades recently making a return to the spotlight on the SCG stage, is NicFit forced to lay low for awhile, or is the matchup close enough to winnable that adaptation is possible?
Thank you in advance for any help and answers. This deck looks awesome to play, and I can't wait to start casting Cabal Therapy again.
-SZ
*As far as I can tell, a blue splash exists but seems both clunkier and a poorer performer on average than either of the other splashes. It seems like a Boards list - often discussed and modified but very rarely played and/or successful.
I feel like GB is solid vs combo (as solid as any of these lists get anyway), even vs control, and good vs aggro. GBW= A bit weaker vs combo, probably still even against control, and maybe a bit better vs aggro. GBR (Non-Shift) still a bit weak to combo, a bit better against control, and better vs aggro.
I have no clue on the blue splash as I have never tried it.
Basically with Nic-Fit you probably will be able to smash any aggro decks, as deed destroys anything creature based, all while going over the top with much bigger threats than they can handle. Control it will be a tight game, but a resolved Jace will be very good as he usually is against Mid-Rangy decks. And Combo you will have to play a tight game and know what to name with your therapy if you expect to even have a chance winning.
You can fight Jace with creatures that leave guys behind (Grave Titan, Hermit, Broodmate Dragon), Vindicate, Oblivion Ring or Faith's Fetters (Fetters and O-Ring work fine as enchantment targets), plus as its been said, Maelstrom Pulse, or direct damage via Bolt, Blightning or P-fire. Plus, Sigarda won't get bounced by Jace. Oh yeah, ETB effects hurt Jace too (Eternal Witness, Huntmaster) Jace shouldn't be that big of an issue really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I had typed up a response but the server ate it...but:
-Thrun is great against control and Jace.
-Each build of Nic Fit can be varied to a given meta. I'm not a good point of authority, but there is good discussion here until someone else can chime in http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post659062
-We have a good matchup against Stoneblade decks because our high density of must-answer bombs will eventually overwhelm them. Granted, an active Jace can be tough and make for a 2 hour long match, but you're not out of the fight at all.
-Your build can be tailored to whatever. For example, I put in Living Death to give the deck absurd resiliency in the long run against control and aggro decks.
Played GBu Nic Fit today and performed ok...
Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
Spells (22)
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cabal Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
4 Negate
1 Karakas
2-1 UR Delver
G1: Delver + Daze + Spell Snare smashes destroys me
-2 Garruk -1 Therapy +2 Blood +1 Darkblast
G2: Thrag wins
G3: Thrag wins
2-0 Pox
G1: Loam and Thragtusk owned
-4 Therapy -2 Lily -1 Shriekmaw -1 Fleshbag +4 Thoughtseize +4 Negate
G2: My opponent mulls and draws like crap so I win...
0-2 Combo Elves
G1: I get flooded and find nothing with Top. I take a lethal swing on T4
-2 Garruk -2 Gifts -1 Ooze -1 Thrag -1 LftL +2 Blood +1 Darkblast +4 Thoughtseize
G2: I get flooded and only land a TS and a Lily
0-2 Sneak Show
G1: T2 Emrakul + FoW vs my T1 Explorer
-2 Garruk -3 Pulse -3 Deed -1 Ooze +1 Karakas +4 Thoughtseize +4 Negate
G2: I open up with TS and get rid of brainstorm when my opponent is holding 2 Needles 1 Grissel 1 Island 1 Petal 1 Cage. My opponent draws into Tomb, plays Sneak with Petal that I Negate (opponent's jaw drops). I am holding a gift for the following turn but my opponent rips a SnT and Grissel does his thing.
I am still missing 2 Misty, and I think the deck is still too lategame centered as it is. Gifts is a bomb by itself and I think I need to incorporate more Innocent Blood into the maindeck to make it run smoother. Gifts and Garruk overlap in their purpose.
Alright after minimal testing tonight I've come to a few conclusions.
1. Sigarda is amazing and getting her out vs control is very hard to beat.
2. I need to get ahold of another savannah :P
3. Baneslayer while she would be amazing is never in my hand at the right time.
4. Garruk relentless is underwhelming I'm not sure I want 2. I def like the interaction with uve tracker and master, but 1 may be enough. Tracker may not be powerful enough on his own either but needs more games first.
Alright, time for a nice big dreadnought of a post, I guess....if I'm to get in something for everyone, anyway.
First up, I went a disappointing 2-2 last night at my local, purely because of my own stupidity. Deck was fine, I was just playing like a chump. For now, I'm going to stick with the Wood Elves as my floater spot in my Rector White -- shit is just so good. It feels pretty good to have a 3-drop that isn't Empath or Witness (aka something you actually want to get early in the game). It's also a good dork to sac to Therapy that doesn't feel embarrassing, like those awkward moments when you need to sac like an Ooze to therapy. It's something that I could definitely see replacing at some point in the future, but for now, I think I'm going to settle there. The Mindcensors in the board....I dunno. I brought them in vs Imperial Painter, and they didn't do anything because he never drew his Recruiters. I also brought them in vs Bant, but I never saw them, and I didn't really need them in general. My thought process when putting them in is that they are something that can help vs both Maverick and combo. I'm not sure if I want to leave them in for another test, or try out something else. For now, I'm considering my list as having two open sideboard spots, but am leaning towards giving them another test. Also, Kokusho won me a game when I was locked out by an Ensnaring Bridge. Granted I could have waited for a Deed, Pulse, or Vindicate, but odds are I would have lost if he had that much time to go off.
I'm going to go most recent -> back up, since it's easier for me as I'm scrolling down.
@Kung Fu -- You might need to add a 2nd Baneslayer. That's the number I've run for a considerable amount of time now, and they're always just amazing. Unless I'm horrifically mana-screwed, or my opponent has like an Iona on white or something, I'm never unhappy to draw a Baneslayer.
Towards that end, you might want to add in a little bit more ramp, since you don't have Rector and Moat as additional stall tactics. If the Garruk-Master-Tracker engine isn't working for you, it might be that Garruk is really just that bad now. There's a lot of things you could do with 4 slots....2nd Baneslayer, 1x Wood Elves, open slot x2 is pretty awesome. I've had the idea kicking around of [cards]Wren's Run Packmaster[/card] for a while to reinvigorate the Master of the Wild Hunt engine, but we don't run any[where near enough] elves to make her work, due to the Champion mechanic, and I don't think that the interaction is strong enough to be worth building around specifically.
@Qweerios -- Seems like Thragtusk was MVP for you.
I noticed that you boarded out Garruk a lot...just the matchups, or hasn't he been doing much for you in that version?
Lol, Negate ftw. Sucks that he ripped like a greek god =( Too bad you didn't have Shriekmaw in hand when he Showed Emrakul -- that would have been all kinds of amusing.
You should put in a Wood Elves =P I'm so high on that card right now, haha.
@Claymore -- Thrun isn't as good as many people think. He's okay, but he suffers from two very serious problems:
1) he's a 4/4. That means he's smaller than most green creatures in legacy, with the basically sole exception of Monguise. Knight, Goyf, and Qasali are all going to be at least 4/4 most of the time.
2) Control has Terminus now, which means it can laugh at him. Some of them were running some number of Wrath of Gods postboard a few months ago, which also dealt with the problem....and a lot of control decks (and non-control, for that matter) are running Perish as a means of combating Maverick, which deals us some splash damage.
You're pretty much spot on RE Stoneblade. Unless they go nutty, odds are we'll have the edge, but it will take approximately 9 years to actually win. This is one matchup where Kokusho+Nightmare really, really shines, because it's an atomic-level win condition that Stoneblade can't really interact with. At the point at which it happens, they'll be so far out of resources that it isn't even funny. Rector builds are favored vs Stoneblade due to Phyrexian Arena. At the peak of Stoneblade a few months ago, I was actually running 3x Arena in my deck. That may have been a little excessive, but it sure got the job done. Stoneblade just kind of crumpled....they're an attrition deck, like us, but they're focused almost entirely on 1-for-1s and using superior card quality to grind matches out. By contrast, our deck is built around the concept of [at least] 2-for-1s. Everything generates value, and Stoneblade just can't keep up. They need to have one of their aggro-tastic hands and play basically closer to RUG than control, or they'll get drowned out.
@Greenpoe -- been a while since I've seen you in here. Good to see all these people coming back to the thread now that we've got some quality discussion going :P I guess all I had to do was start writing massive dreadnought posts every day, haha.
You missed a way to get rid of Jace -- you Therapy them on turn 3. Also, Cranial Extraction/Memoricide are excellent weapons against Jace decks, because they tend to lean on Jace really hard for their primary win condition. If all you have to worry about from Stoneblade is their dudes, and not their walkers, you're pretty well set.
@Megadeus -- I'm just going to copy/paste the relevant section that Claymore linked to, but I'm going to make some revisions:
(Scale: poor -> decent -> good -> pretty good -> astonishing)
Note: fair includes decks like RUG, Miracles, Stoneblade, Rock, Deadguy, etc. Aggro includes tribal and Maverick, although Maverick is kind of a fair/aggro hybrid, to be honest. I guess it's basically tribal humans, kind of, lol. I also added a category of Sneak, which also includes Reanimator, Post, and all of the other stupid ERMAGAHD EMRAKUL decks.
White - pretty good vs fair, pretty good vs aggro, decent-good vs combo, decent vs Sneak
Red - pretty good-astonishing vs fair, astonishing vs aggro, decent vs combo, poor-decent vs Sneak
Blue - astonishing vs fair, decent vs aggro [Note: rapes Maverick, tribal is poor], good vs combo, good vs Sneak
G/B - good vs fair, good vs aggro, good vs combo, good vs Sneak
Again, these are a little questionable, but as a rough way of saying what's good vs what, it's decent. Note that I'm operating under the shameless assumption of my personal lists (using Qweerios base for G/B). I don't know the Rock variant's matchups as well as I know the Rector variant, for example. Same with Scapeshift vs PFire...so assume White = Rector, Red = Scapeshift, Blue = Fact or Fiction, G/B = Qweerios, and remember that those are guidelines, not strict truths.
Also: don't make the mistake of assuming that Deed is the end-all and be-all. It's not. If you think that you smash aggro just because of Deed, you're going to die. It's a hell of a workhorse, but Merfolk can counter it. Goblins can have dudes with too-high of a CMC and kill you before you can actually wrath everything (stupid Ringleader...). Either of them can and sometimes do run Pithing Needle/Revoker. Leaning entirely on one card is the single fastest way to lose good matchups where you don't draw it/that one card gets shut down.
@Worldslayer -- welcome to the thread/deck!
See my matchup analysis above.
Speaking personally, I would take Rector to an unknown meta, but that's first and foremost because Rector is my "favored" build -- it was my first build, and it's still my favorite. As a result, I have a lot of experience with it, and experience counts like you wouldn't believe with this deck. Sure, sometimes you hurp (Veteran) into durp (Therapy) and go shlurp (Deed or 5/6-drop). But for every one of those situations, there's five more where things don't work out quite how you want them to, and you need to improvise. This is a HARD deck to play correctly, let alone optimally, which is one reason why it doesn't get as much press as it really deserves. The playskill of your average Nic Fit player if you walk around a good sized legacy event is decidedly awful. I'd proxy up both Scapeshift and Rector (if those are your desired points of entry) and see which one feels better to you....then just stick with that one with extreme prejudice. These decks are capable of more tricks than most legacy players know exist, and taking the time to learn one version inside and out will serve you much better than switching it up every time the meta shifts. Rector and Scapeshift are both powerful enough that you shouldn't have to worry about meta shifts anyway....they can both be tweaked for almost any meta.
Blue is still in the experimental stage. It's one of those things where we know there's a deck there somewhere, but actually pinning it down is challenging. It'll get there eventually, I'm sure. For now, though, unless you want to do a lot of R&D, I'd advise staying away from it. I mean, if you want to get down and dirty with it, then by all means be my guest...but I'm guessing that's not what you're looking for, from the tone of your post.
@Megadeus again - Thornling is atrocious. If you want to play MooMooPlowCow, play Kodama/North instead. He's vastly better. Also, you're in red. If you work in enough lifegain to still be able to use your Top how you want to, keep in mind that Burning-Tree Shaman exists. It's a hell of a card...it just requires you to be careful with Top, which is one reason that he doesn't see much play. And before you suggest Sylvan Library, remember that Sylvan dies to Deed.
@TheArchitect -- you make a very good point regarding Lily in that we will probably get the card back later. However, that does slow down our rate of winning a lot, which is something that the deck can have issues with as it is. I'd rather not see the deck turn into something like lands.dec, where you win g1 and then try to stall out.
I'm not saying that there aren't good arguments on behalf of Liliana, because there definitely are. Hell, the fact that she's a blowout vs both stack-based combo and Show and Tell is a huge deal, since those are traditionally weaker matchups for the deck as a whole archetype. Also Metalworker. But I just really don't prefer the kind of playstyle that she forces you into....even in the Rector White, which I regarded as the most prison-ish of the various builds, I don't want to have to play that way. I'd much rather actually win the game than strip my opponent totally of resources -- it's a matter of balance. The rest of the deck does that well enough that I don't see taking EVERYTHING as necessary or desired.
Maybe I'll try one of her in place of Wood Elves and maybe a second in the board for my event on Saturday and see if my opinion changes from when I last played with her.
Is it fair to say that Liliana could be seen as a "playstyle card" rather than a "staple?" It seems like the deck overall has enough quality options that she isn't mandatory, even if she is good. Is personal preference the best way to settle the Liliana dispute?
@Qweerios, how is that Ooze mainboard working for you? The rest of the list seems good, though I have my personal qualms about Liliana
I agree that Thrun isn't great all around, but against blue-based control decks in particular he can be a great asset. His anti-counter clause alone has won me several tournament matches against blue decks with or without Jace and got me one hilarious scoop-phase against Pox (T2 Nether Void? Here's my Thrun).
Otherwise, in a more aggro or combo meta Thrun isn't the best choice for the deck.
I think that is a fair assumption, that she is a playstyle choice. Especially when running 3-4 of them like I do, she turns the deck's strategy into "get your opponent into top deck mode, and with a clear board before you die, and then win with prime titan and lands". And I do have a lot of games where I draw out which is undoubtable because the GB list I usually run is more controlling. That said, she controls the board/hand better than jace (not counting spells you find with jaces BS) and is a definitely worthy of inclusion if you are looking for a more "control" deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I wouldn't be against running 2 baneslayers. I am kind of in the camp of wanting some extra redundancy rather than all the 1 ofs. I'd think of going back to 2 oozes md too but idk.Quote:
@Kung Fu -- You might need to add a 2nd Baneslayer. That's the number I've run for a considerable amount of time now, and they're always just amazing. Unless I'm horrifically mana-screwed, or my opponent has like an Iona on white or something, I'm never unhappy to draw a Baneslayer.
Towards that end, you might want to add in a little bit more ramp, since you don't have Rector and Moat as additional stall tactics. If the Garruk-Master-Tracker engine isn't working for you, it might be that Garruk is really just that bad now. There's a lot of things you could do with 4 slots....2nd Baneslayer, 1x Wood Elves, open slot x2 is pretty awesome. I've had the idea kicking around of [cards]Wren's Run Packmaster[/card] for a while to reinvigorate the Master of the Wild Hunt engine, but we don't run any[where near enough] elves to make her work, due to the Champion mechanic, and I don't think that the interaction is strong enough to be worth building around specifically.
Was considering grave Titan vs kokusho as well. No moat means its not an easy decision, as kokusho is weak to have and swords but I like the non combat oriented win con be presents. Thoughts?
About the wolves. I do like the master as a form of repeatable spot removal for the deck. I think he is ok on his own though since he keeps making guys. And if you dont need to kill dudes he creates a lot of power from a 4 drop over tome Tracker is +/- but probably shines against creature decks ESP if you are fighting with Baneslayer or death touch wolves. Garruk I just never wanted when I was playing. However I only played against sneak and show and esper stone blade, matchups you don't need that repeated removal against.
Something about looking at my list and seeing all the 1 ofs bothered me today though.
Also I should say overall I'm a fan of liliana but maybe sb is better?
@Arianrhod,
As I mentioned, Primal Hunter and Gifts overlap in their purpose. Garruk is one of those expensive bombs that turn the attrition matches in your favor. I think Gifts is superior to Garruk at that and I intend on cutting him entirely from tricolored lists.
I wouldn't play Wood Elves at all when I have access to Oracles. The Oracles are just better. I would be more enclined to play a Viridian Emissary than a Wood Elves simply because ramp and Therapy bodies are things I want ASAP.
@Amazingxkcd
Ooze MD is what I cling to G1 against RUG, UR Delver, Burn/Sligh, Reanimator, and Dredge. It is a silver bullet at best and rarely a bad card to have in hand. I can't always rush Thragtusk against RUG and UR Delver because I don't have a lot of GSZ and I need to play around Daze and Pierce. Definitely a staple for a GSZ package in my book, no matter how incomplete said package may appear.
As for Liliana, my opinion about her is really back and forth. I think Liliana is really good at what she does, but she does a thing of her own. Do we really need what she does or should we play more synergistic cards instead - Thoughtseize/IoK and Innocent Blood being the most blatant ones we often lack. I find it odd that such great cards are often missing from a deck revolving around Explorer and Therapy... Passively ramping is fine against fair decks but oh so wasteful against unfair decks (AKA: Legacy format).
On another note, I don't believe in the "playstyle" argument. I think there is a right and a wrong way to play a deck and that accepting "playstyle" as an argument for a card choice is debilitating.