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I'd always thought about Gut Shot in a deck with Pyromancer. Obviously in the examples above it was never an issue, but have you found that so many Phyrexian Spells were too taxing at any point? Also, what is the plan for a deck such as RUG/UWR/BUG Delver where they stick a threat that is difficult to overcome such as Tarm or TNN?
Manage your Lightning Bolts properly. Gut Shot can also finish the job in some instances. Gumming up the board with tokens can create intricate combat situations, forcing the player to break through your wall of tokens and possibly opening themselves up for a nice crack-back.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
Dismember is a thing, as well. The Phyrexian-mana spells can be hard cast if need be, so no they are definitely not taxing.
As far as TNN goes, it is what it is, and it's obviously difficult to stop. Some archetypes have more difficulty than others. Curfew is a major contender right now in my list to make the cut again. The combat tricks are limitless with Snapcaster Mage and Pyromancer, while inhibiting fast aggro or untargetable creatures like TNN and Emrakul.
Combine that with Snapcaster Mage and you're looking at value city.
That is not a card I've seen before. I really like that as an answer to Sneak and Show/Painter/Tempo/Tricks. It feels like a good fit in this deck in several different circumstances. I'll have to test it in my UR version.
It's actually insanely good in the deck, the only problem is identifying what slots to flex out in a given tournament. Curfew is a card that by itself is relatively innocuous. But when you start meshing it into the configuration with Snapcasters and Young Pyromancers, it gets extremely good. Assuming my opponent who was on Sneak and Show decided they wanted to run out Emrakul on turn two with the Show, Curfew would have been amazing. I actually had it in my other list, but after testing it for the last few weeks and seeing how good it can be it's very hard to not play one or two in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
The only downside is its counter-productivity with Delver, but that is highly unusual given the quantity of Curfews and the more likely advantageous interaction between eight (nine if you also count Clique) of your creatures. Curfew with Pyromancer is great, because you can resolve the trigger first and bounce your token while your opponent is stuck with possibly no dude in play. This gives you a turn to draw, attack, filter or burn out an opponent. It's also annoying against Goyf because a good amount of time folks whose decks play Goyf tend to sometimes not run them out on turn two in fear of counter-magic or removal (we're talking turn two here).
In this instance, Curfew is even better because it ships the Goyf back to their hand and buys you two turns before it can even attack - let alone resolve. The interaction with Clique is also awesome. Bouncing both your Clique and an opponent's creature to their hand only to watch it get shipped to the bottom of their deck is incredible. All the while, you have a 3/1 flyer and they have zilch.
I like its application at two - three max - but definitely not four.
If u Play Curfew which Card did u Cut in your Last List?
Do you swap out the TNN for Clique at 3cc depending on matchup, or are there cases where you may have both in, though a bit expensive?
Curfew is a card i would only play in certain metas, and even in that instance I could see it only being sideboarded as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flojo82
Clique comes in against combo-esque decks, while TNN stays for the control mirror and other aggro strategies as an unstoppable threat. You can keep both in if you want under certain circumstances; it's not hard to find three mana in the deck with as much draw and filter that exists. You basically grind out the attrition war early and go to town during the mid to late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
did a little digging but couldn't find an answer to this, looking at Michael keller's list, why the love for Preordain over Ponder?
I was initially split on running Ponder over Preordain, but in testing - and especially with Preordain's ability to grant card quality over quantity - I felt the advantages were weighted in favor of it over Ponder. I was finding scenarios in testing where I didn't like seeing one card I liked and the other two being less than stellar in a given scenario. This has never occurred since playing Preordain, which not only ensures I'm getting quality, but shifting unneeded cards to the bottom of my deck where they won't show up again like they could in a Ponder shuffle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelteg
I'm not saying Ponder is better than Preordain - both are amazing at what they do. However, in a Young Pyromancer deck, I think Preordain shines more. At least in my build it has and does.
Perhaps this should fill a thread that's more to do with U/R Pyromancer and opposed to U/R Delver - even though Delver is a featured weapon in the deck.
I'll be happy to oblige. Here is my UR Delver Deck Tech/Primer that features Young Pyromancer:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing
The article also has a tournament report of my 11th place finish at the SCGO in Columbus two weeks ago with the deck.
Continued the streak with my new Pyromancer list. Won the local event tonight, going 6-1 in the process.
Here was what I played, for reference:
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Gut Shot
1 Fire / Ice
5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Meltdown
1 Vendilion Clique
Here were the match-ups I faced:
Round [1]: vs. Zoo [W 2-0]
Round [2]: vs. T.E.S. [Bryant] [L 1-2]
Round [3]: vs. Death and Taxes [W 2-0]
Round [4]: vs. Manaless Dredge [W 2-1]
Round [5]: vs. U/R Pyromancer [W 2-0]
Top Four: vs. R/W/U Delver Patriot [W 2-0]
Finals: vs. T.E.S. [Bryant] [W 2-1]
At any rate, the list performed solidly as usual. The sideboard is currently tailored to combat the local meta, but that will likely change outside that venue. The addition of a few more Chain Lightning and the subtraction of Lavamancer and Nemesis felt comfortable. I liked having the additional means to remove troublesome threats, as generally Delver or Pyromancer do enough on their own to seal games down with counter backup.
Other things noted:
a.) I am really enjoying the graveyard hate out of the board the way it's setup. Snapcaster not only gives Surgical redundancy, but it completely washes decks reliant on not only reanimation strategies, but alternate strategies such as Punishing Fire, Loam, etc. I've found them to be invaluable in the combo match-up as well against niche archetypes, so they'll likely stay at four.
b.) Gut Shot was awesome as usual. It completely owns the Delver mirror and finishes off planeswalkers for that critical last point of damage. Tie that in with the amazing synergy with Young Pyromancer and you've got a deadly package. I can't say how many times I've loved seeing this card.
c.) The move from Pierces main and Flusterstorms side was an obviously correct call as their general application is much more diverse against other decks.
d.) I cut a Blue Blast and stuck with the one out of the board, as red decks don't really dominate my local meta. Ironically, it proved to be the game winner in game three of the finals against Bryant and T.E.S.
I'll keep tinkering around with it some more, but up to this point I don't see how much more I can change in the interim with the way the deck has performed. I'm sure some cards will rotate in and out from tournament to tournament, but up to this point I'm very happy with this list.
Thanks, Hollywood. Love the list. I guess the singleton Spell Snare and Fire/Ice are doing the work. Can't wait to try it soon, though I may try to work a Lavamancer back in there to sweep up a bit.
Went 4-0 at Eudemonia in Berkeley the other week. I meant to post earlier but got distracted. Walking into an unknown meta, I figured it’d be good to kill Deathrite Shaman on sight and also frequently steal games from men at six life. Hence a decision to play eight Bolts, a big three copies of Price of Progress and 4x Snapcaster Mage.
It looked like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Mountain
SB:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Gilded Drake
2 Flusterstorm
R1: Beat a brew involving Deathrite Shaman, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Bob and Batterskull. My opponent got land-screwed when his Brainstorm revealed no land and no shuffle, locking him for two turns. Plus I killed his Deathrite. Sorry dude, I’m lame.
R2: Went to game three against Death & Taxes. Grim Lavamancer did work, keeping Mom down, and I drew my singleton Sulfur Elemental both post-board games—having that guy makes me feel like a jerk.
Anyway, G3 against D&T my opponent gets out Batterskull at 13 life. I have Grim Lavamancer, and after drawing I'm holding Price of Progress for 8, plus Chain Lightning in my hand.
Theoretically I have the potential here to shoot Batterskull with Lavamancer and finish the germ off with Chain, but in my head, I'm thinking fuck it, I'll just go to the dome and kill him this turn—meanwhile I’m neglecting that I only have two red sources on the board. So I Price him to 5, realize I botched and only have one red source left, do a little more damage to his face and say go, thinking I've just thrown away the match as he crashes in with Batterskull.
But! Next turn I just get fiendishly lucky, topdeck Snapcaster Mage, and flashback Price to finish the job and salvage the match. Well played, sir.
R3: I’m against Painter’s Servant/Grindstone. The R/W version with Enlightened Tutor. As I remember this, I lost the first game really quickly, but took over post-board, bringing in Smash to Smithereens and, on a lark, Pyroblast. This works for me once or twice because he’s naming Blue with Painter’s Servant. I think he also gets flooded one of these games, for rub-ins.
R4: We agree to split the prize and play for bragging rights. I’m against Storm Combo, which my opponent says he’s not very experienced with, and I remember just astonishingly little about this match other than managing to draw Flusterstorm a lot and having to be smart about using Brainstorm to skirt his hand-hate, and still ultimately only winning because I got some damage in quick and his Ad Nauseum wasn’t exactly what he needed in time.
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Overall I was really happy with the mainboard. It’s tempting to imagine the sideboard dropping Sulfur Elemental and Gilded Drake for some broader options like Electrickery and Vendilion Clique, but I don’t have my mind made up.
I am curious about the builds on this thread that drop Grim Lavamancer and replace Goblin Guide with Young Pyromancer, and also switch from Price of Progress to a Wasteland plan. Young Pyro seems temptingly fun and is cooler than Goblin Guide, but also seems sometimes grindy and slower, and susceptible to such stiff breezes as Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution and so on.
And while of course Wasteland is good, I think being resilient to it is better, alongside exploiting all the Legacy decks that jam the down payment on a house into their manabase. Thoughts?
Nice list, i will try it myself. I love the 4 surgicals!Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I am however failing to understand why you would non-bo the snapcasters with the grafdiggers? Dont you feel the dissynergy? With no Lavamancers, could the grafdiggers be replaced by Relics of Prog.?
If Grafdigger's Cage sticks against the decks where it's most effective, at worst Snapcaster is a 2/1 beater at instant speed. They're in there to drop the hammer on decks that have a hard time recovering from it, and Delver decks tend to by their very nature have a hard time dealing with graveyard-based strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
It's too good to pass up, unless I find something else that works better in its place. It also hoses Elves, don't forget.
Is surgical plus snap caster not enough vs GY strategy? I know cage doubles as being good vs elves, but Idk. I feel like cage is redundant if it is just for the GY hate aspect
Thats what i'm thinkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
with counters, 4 surgicals and 4 snaps, i think that should suffice.
I wonder if Electrickery is worth a look out of the board? That's a card I've been looking at closely. Very solid against Empty the Warrens and serves dual purpose against Elves and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Here is my updated list, for reference:
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Gut Shot
1 Fire / Ice
1 Noxious Revival
5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
//Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Electrickery
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
2 Extract
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Meltdown
So, I sat down and looked at some issues the deck was having that needed addressing, in addition to taking some of your suggestions under advisement. Let's start from the top:
Gitaxian Probe
After having play-tested this card top to bottom, in addition to the recent success I've been having at the local venue, Gitaxian Probe has underwhelmed much more than I thought it would. You see, this iteration runs eighteen lands so it poses incredibly difficult decisions on hands necessitating mana and action spells. It just hasn't done anything useful other than make a token here and there, and Snapcaster Mage with it is a waste. The information and cantrip is great, don't get me wrong, but in a battle of attrition early on the ambiguity the card presents doesn't win out over removal or counter-magic, so I preferred to cut it. Information is invaluable, but honestly there are so many other good business spells in such a tight list I would be hard pressed to keep these in the deck at this point.
I'm on the borderline with this card right now. I understand it's great, but it has been more of a liability than a weapon at this point. I just hated mulliganing hands where this card found its way into the starting six or five, because it didn't really offer me anything except for an unknown replacement and a Peek. I also disliked having to wait to cast a Pyromancer first and hold this in order to create a token; the information is clearly more valuable before casting Pyromancer, which again creates ambiguity in the timing of the spell and delayed information.
Probe may very well find its way back into the deck, but time will tell on that one. Until I see it operate successfully in this deck to maximum value, I'll hold off in the mean time.
Noxious Revival
I love this card in this deck. Not only is it an excellent redundant spell that can retrieve anything in your graveyard, it also acts as a defensive measure against Reanimator and other graveyard-based strategies where you can screw with their highly anticipated spells. It does have application against Miracles, as well. A splash here as a one-of is excellent with four Snapcasters to milk the most out of its use, and honestly I've fallen in love with it. I like the card for its utility and ability to interact in more complex situations, something Gitaxian Probe doesn't really offer in a deck like this.
Beautiful for recurring a Wasteland, as well. A free spell that makes a creature with Y.P., too.
Grim Lavamancer
I fit this guy back into the main for his application to mop up against aggro strategies, quick critters or finishers to planeswalkers. Seeing him hit the table turn one can create issues for some decks ill-prepared to fight through his ability.
Chain Lightning
I still like this card here as another way of doing damage to kill planeswalkers or other troublesome creatures. And to damage players, as well. I like the balance it brings to the deck as it functions more in the control aspect as opposed to straight-up "burn you out" line of play, even though that option is readily handy with redundancy in Mage.
Electrickery
Speaks for itself. Keeps your creatures on board while waxing theirs. Highly applicable against Storm and Elves, in addition to D&T and other similar strategies. My previous iteration had issues in dealing with Empty the Warrens, which I wanted to address. This works beautifully in shoring that problem up, in addition to possibly netting you a creature with some card advantage.
True-Name Nemesis
I'd like to fit this guy back into the deck at some point, but right now I'm trying to see what works and what doesn't. He's nice as a definitive finisher, but honestly I'm not too sure. He'll probably make a return at some point, though.
Extract
After perusing some lists and testing throughly against decks that gave this list natural fits, one thing I took notes on was how difficult it was to devote resources early to attacking certain areas of the board. The deck can in some ways play the role of tempo-beast with Daze and Wasteland, but without Stifle all can at times not be lost for the opponent with additional resources. This is notable against 12-Post and other similar rogue-ish strategies that backed me into a corner by worming their way out of denial and winning out of nowhere when I couldn't keep up. I don't like that. A good portion of Legacy decks right now are predicated on running semi-linear strategies with high-impact finishers, such as a singleton Emrakul, Ad Nauseam, Batterskull, Life from the Loam, Dark Depths, Punishing Fire (to a lesser extent), etc. This deck clearly has a hard time battling through those threats, so Extract as an early proactive means to gain information of an opponent's deck and cutting off their primary tunnel to victory is absolutely huge.
Surgical Extraction functions as more of a way to battle dedicated graveyard strategies, where as Extract isn't as situational and gives you that flexibility. Snapcaster Mage maxed out with a pair of these in the board can also do some serious damage. The key thing to note here is the proactive way in which the card operates. These other decks durdle with Tops and cantrips setting up for the big turn, so we turn the tables on them by stripping them of those options early on and nullify cards that improve their hands post-cantrip.
So far the list has played tight with a solid balance of control and aggression, which I love. If anyone has any thoughts, please feel free to comment.