[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

Personally, I like the 1st Mox Diamond over the 2nd Chrome Mox mainly due to pre-combo issues with Chrome Mox. I usually find that I rarely have dead cards in my hand, and I hate pitching cards that I want either as disruption or combo pieces (looking at you specifically Therapy/Thoughtseize) to yet ANOTHER Chrome Mox to make more mana. Mox Diamond is a more versatile mana piece, but has a slimmer selection of cards to pitch to it... however if I'm pitching 1 land for another mana source, then I don't feel as bad as needing to pitch disruption or business. The deck can function off of very few lands in play, so trading a land for a mox diamond doesn't seem to bad. Furthermore, Mox Diamond can't be wastelanded and can cast every spell in the deck, including Children.

The reason why I like the 1st Chrome Mox over the 1st Mox Diamond really just comes down to the amount of cards in the deck to pitch to them. Chrome Mox can actually do something pre-combo more often than Mox Diamond.

But, YMMV, and I can see why my argument for the 1st Chrome Mox can apply to the second one as well too. Test and find out your own preference. :)

Chrome Mox is already the worst card to draw prior to going off with Griselbrand. Adding Mox Diamond increases the amount of useless draws. While flooding with lands is basically the same thing, and Brainstorm is a helluva card to help alleviate those situations, it sucks when you need the permanent mana source of a land and instead topdeck a Mox. I'm ambivalent to the first Mox, but the second makes the odds that much higher of missing something useful instead.

Consider the odds of drawing in your opening hand a singleton in your deck is 11.67%. Roughly 1 in 9 games, you will fan open a hand containing Chrome Mox. Bumping up to 2 Mox increases that odds to 20.96%, or 1 in 5 games. Roughly translated to matches, that's 1 in 4 matches for running 1 Mox, and once in every other match with 2 Mox. Sometimes you'll win because you have the access to additional fast mana. Other times, you won't be able to play the Mox and it will be a dead card. It's hard to quantify just how useful Mox is outside the combo phase.

Either and both Moxen are useful cards once you've got Griselbrand in play. There's no denying that. The question thus becomes, how much of a nuisance are Moxen prior to Griselbrand?

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Originally Posted by Koby

Either and both Moxen are useful cards once you've got Griselbrand in play. There's no denying that. The question thus becomes, how much of a nuisance are Moxen prior to Griselbrand?

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And, what is the right balance between nuisance pre-combo, and a lower percentage of fizzling mid-combo. I guess you summarized my post in terms of nuisance - if I were to run 2 moxen (which I honestly have no idea - haven't sleeved the deck up in a long while), I have found (anecdotal) the split to be less of a nuisance than 2 Chrome Mox.

Stupid phone app not posting my message.

Anyway, I've been noticing more that I need that 1 extra non land mana source to continue comboing off, and 5 artifact mana sources aren't cutting it. Adding a 6th will help that problem, but are the gains worth any potential losses pre combo?

I have no testing one way or another due to a lack of play group, and while we can theory craft the numbers, some actual testing should be done. I do agree that the first Diamond should come before the 2nd Chrome, since picking a card to Imprint is sometimes very hard, but I always have dead lands in hand mid combo.

The other idea that I had would be to add a 5th ritual to the deck. If we can start our combo with an extra ritual, then we are in good shape. The problem is, what rituals do we want?

1) Culling the Weak is right out
2) Cabal Ritual costs 2, but we can hit threshold fairly easily.
3) Rain of Filth costs 1, but is only good if we have 2+ lands out and hurts us if we aren't winning that turn.
4) Bubbling Muck isn't a ritual, but I do know I fetch out Swamps primarily, so it could give us that extra 1 mana boost we need from 2 lands.


Anyway, those are just my initial thoughts on the matter, based off of my observations with the deck.

I personally play one Mox Diam over the one-off Chrome mox. Most of the time I found myself not wanting to give away a card on Chrome Mox. So I find it quite useless before comboing-off. In testing I have more situations when I've got one extra land and can discard it to Mox Diamond than wanting to imprint a card on Chrome Mox. And after comboing-off, Mox Diam is way better as it can give us the white mana we always need, all the more when we don't draw into our Lotus Petal. Plus, the opening hands with 2 lands, one of wchich is a Fetch, Mox Diam and a BS are magic. I'm not considering changing it for Chrome Mox anymore.

My humble 2cents.

Thanks for the feedback. It's a good account of how Mox Diamond is working out in these lists. I often burn a turn 1 Lotus Petal to have a kick-ass Brainstorm on turn 1; and this makes those hands much better.

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

Comparing it with the ANT manabase:

ANT:
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Tin-Fins:
1 Scrubland
1 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

Greetings Chris

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I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

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I don't think a mana base like ANT's is good for us though. ANT needs to achieve a critical mass of mana in order to chain 10 spells together, with the highest costing card being 5, and has to be able to hit 4 mana at minimum for Tendrils.

On the other hand, we need 3 mana to Entomb+Reanimate, and then another 3 mana to do it again for Emrakul. Each segment is easily cast off of a Dark Ritual, so any Rits that we draw reduce our mana requirements by 2 per ritual. In an ideal world, we Rit>Entomb>Grave, draw 7, Petal>Rit>Entomb>Grave swing and win, needing only 2 mana sources to combo.

When it comes to mana bottle necks for the deck, it usually comes down to missing one of two parts: a Dark Ritual or a mana rock. Sometimes it is correct to wait a turn to combo so we have the spare mana going into our combo (such as waiting for t3 to have a land drop and a spare land in play already). Sometimes it's correct to Rit>Entomb>Grave at the opponent's endstep so we untap with full mana. But those situations are based on game state and can't be dependable.

I think that if you are 15 lands, you tend to play the deck as more of a t3 combo deck, and having 6 mana rocks can be a bit much, since you are now down 2 business/cantrips/protection slots over the 14 land lists.

14 and under lands, you are sprinting to go off on turn 1.5 and having 6 rocks helps toward that end, and the current config of 5 does work very well.


Either way, I'm curious as to what your testing brings you.

Wishing you luck!

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

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Thanks for pointing that out. I was under the impression that the manabase is the permanent mana configuration, while IMS and rituals count towards fast mana.

Thats why I asked whats wrong with the mana base.

I am well aware that ANT plays more rituals and rocks ;)

Good luck for your tournament.

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

I don't think a mana base like ANT's is good for us though. ANT needs to achieve a critical mass of mana in order to chain 10 spells together, with the highest costing card being 5, and has to be able to hit 4 mana at minimum for Tendrils.

On the other hand, we need 3 mana to Entomb+Reanimate, and then another 3 mana to do it again for Emrakul. Each segment is easily cast off of a Dark Ritual, so any Rits that we draw reduce our mana requirements by 2 per ritual. In an ideal world, we Rit>Entomb>Grave, draw 7, Petal>Rit>Entomb>Grave swing and win, needing only 2 mana sources to combo.

When it comes to mana bottle necks for the deck, it usually comes down to missing one of two parts: a Dark Ritual or a mana rock. Sometimes it is correct to wait a turn to combo so we have the spare mana going into our combo (such as waiting for t3 to have a land drop and a spare land in play already). Sometimes it's correct to Rit>Entomb>Grave at the opponent's endstep so we untap with full mana. But those situations are based on game state and can't be dependable.

I think that if you are 15 lands, you tend to play the deck as more of a t3 combo deck, and having 6 mana rocks can be a bit much, since you are now down 2 business/cantrips/protection slots over the 14 land lists.

14 and under lands, you are sprinting to go off on turn 1.5 and having 6 rocks helps toward that end, and the current config of 5 does work very well.


Either way, I'm curious as to what your testing brings you.

Wishing you luck!

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Agreed. Extremely low mana requirements are one of the advantages of TinFins over other storm decks. We really start needing to generate mana mid-combo rather than hitting some critical threshold before going off (especially if circumstances dictate that you need to use your attack step), which is why I emphasize IMSs over lands. I'll give Diamond a try over the second Chrome and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Agreed. Extremely low mana requirements are one of the advantages of TinFins over other storm decks. We really start needing to generate mana mid-combo rather than hitting some critical threshold before going off (especially if circumstances dictate that you need to use your attack step), which is why I emphasize IMSs over lands. I'll give Diamond a try over the second Chrome and see how it goes.

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there's a good chance i'm going to audible to this on Sunday at #SCGSEA, so i'm going to try the 1/1 Chrome/Diamond build in a round of testing tonight. i most often fizzle with the deck (i.e. can't add emrakul to a hasty griselbrand OR make children) because i didn't hit an additional IMS. time to #yoloswag

OK so let's assume we're playing a 61 card list with 2 Moxen (1 Chrome, 1 Diamond) -- based on Logan/Koby's list, which card do we cut to fit the 2nd Mox?

Gitaxian Probe?
Silence?
Land?

What about cutting Silence? Currently not playing this deck, but I played Koby's list (your BOM list) a lot in MTGO. Always felt that one-of silence at main was too random. Great when it was good, but the worst when was bad.

Forgot I also ran -1 lim dul's because I'm a maniac who only can play 60 cards decks.

I'm against cutting land 14 in a list running diamond. Cut probe down to 3.

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I would be cutting the Silence/3rd Thoughtseize slot for this.

6 pieces of protection is plenty, Probe does a lot of work, and shaving a land in a 14 land base for a card that requires you to pitch a land doesn't seem like a good idea.

i'm gonna run 61/14 with no silence main, 1 LDV, and 1 Mox Diamond.

Can someone explain to me, why you ever would want more than 60 cards in a deck which always wants to have an Entomb in (starting) hand ? Where is the logic ...? Because some statistics tells you will just lose 1 out of 61 games because of that or what...?

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Originally Posted by Koby

OK so let's assume we're playing a 61 card list with 2 Moxen (1 Chrome, 1 Diamond) -- based on Logan/Koby's list, which card do we cut to fit the 2nd Mox?

Gitaxian Probe?
Silence?
Land?

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Cutting a land for Mox Diamond ? o_O Isn't Chrome Mox just better or equally good before and after combo except you are flooded with lands...? Is it because of the Children... ?

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Originally Posted by Joe Eigo

Cutting a land for Mox Diamond ? o_O Isn't Chrome Mox just better or equally good before and after combo except you are flooded with lands...? Is it because of the Children... ?

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Post combo it's actually way better. Since you only get one land drop per turn and we're generally trying to go off as fast as possible, a lot of times you've already used your land drop before you start to draw off Grizzlebees. Chrome and Diamond are equally good in this situation, because you need another mana source to keep going, but you have plenty of fodder to pitch.