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I run Forest (over your 4th Wasteland) and Strix, and have no problems. Other than that, my list is yours -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Liliana, +2 Dimir Charm in the main (and +1 Misty, -1 Marsh Flats). Our boards are quite different since I'm not running Meddling Mage, though.
I really like the 4x wasteland plan, I'm very hesitant to cut it to three for a basic forest. I see the need to have one to Decay a Blood Moon, but I'd rather cut a Trop for it instead, doesn't hurt as much since we don't run Daze. Thoughts?
I run 1 Sylvan Library and 2 Jace, and I personally love both of them, especially Library! Sets up your cascades (and Bob triggers if you're running them), lets you shuffle away useless stuff, it's like a little Top except it doesn't make judges mad. You have to time it right to make your opponent use up all their counters on your Deathrites & Lilianas and other threats, but the look on your opponent's face when it lands is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by NipyN
I made the room by cutting the Hymn to Tourachs from the maindeck. Hymn is too swingy between great in some matchups and terrible in others, and it's rarely a spell I would want to cascade into. I think it fits better with a Delver-style plan where you stick a Delver or Goyf and then counter & discard them down to an empty hand. In my experience, that's rarely how this deck plays.
I'm always scared to go down to just 4 blue sources, though I definitely see the appeal in 4 Wastelands. I think this is a personal preference thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeff
100% With you on Library. The card is fantastic. I'm not a fan of Bob in this deck - he hurts our velocity and is often just a 1-for-1 by eating removal. That's fine, but I'd rather have stronger lategame cards and fewer low-impact hits off of Agent.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
I'll make my obligatory plug for Dimir Charm main again. It counters most business spells out of combo (and people don't play around non-Force countermagic out of Shardless preboard, which has netted me more than one Show and Tell and a Past in Flames) and is removal in fair matchups, including being able to kill things like Inkmoth Nexus and Mishra's Factory that Decay can't touch. And I won't even start on relevant sorceries out of fair decks. It feels like cheating in the mirror.
My only problem with Dimir Charm is it requires holding mana open, whereas Shardless tends to be a "tap out" control deck. The only time I leave mana open is for a DRS activation or if I'm trying to hard cast FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Also, because I tend to blind cascade more often than I probably should, I don't like being forced to use the third mode if there are no creature targets. Or waste a cascade by not casting it. Just my two cents
The thing that takes some practice with Charm is realizing that it's almost never something you want to hold up intentionally as a counter. 99% of the time it's removal, and you're fine tapping out for it on your turn to keep your velocity up. I'm essentially on the "wreck fair decks and lose to combo game 1" plan, but with two basically free ways to interact with combo that have additional value in fair matchups even if they can't kill things. I also think that setting Agent up is overrated. The game state dictates when you should just jam him and when you should be spending cards to set it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeff
On a totally unrelated note, has anyone playtested against Aluren or Food Chain? The former seems completely unwinnable to me, while the latter seems to be basically doing what we're doing, but better.
I've never played against Aluren but I've found the Food Chain matchup to be pretty awful. Misthollow Griffin is basically impossible to deal with in longer games. The games I've won have involved a pretty quick Goyf/DRS beatdown while keeping opposing DRS and Food Chain off the table. Obviously that's easier said than done since shardless isn't a deck set up to kill fast, and they can outgrind you pretty well. Just be thankful it's not a popular deck haha.
Once you realize food chain is a misthollow Griffin deck and not a food chain deck, and play accordingly, it will go much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
This is the list I'm currently running -
Creature: 14
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
Instants: 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
Sorceries: 6
2 Thought seize
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Hymn to Tourach
Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifact/Enchantment: 3
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Land: 22
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Sideboard: (still playing with the sideboard, these are the definites)
1 Baleful Strix
1 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Meddling Mage
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
What do you think? Yes, I know I'm not playing wastelands. The deck doesn't want them or need them to be effective. Wasteland ultimately slows down this mana hungry deck. Jitte was added as it can be hit off shardless and can give that extra power or to stabilize stabilize. Top and Library were added as one ofs because they both can be hit off shardless and interact very well to make sure your shardless hits what you want. The basics allow you to abrupt decay around things like blood moon. Thanks in advance for the input. Hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, and Lili are the best way to combat combo. T1 thoughtseize, t2 hymn, and t3 lili pretty much wins, which is why I left one hymn in the main. I think wasteland in the deck does help but it isn't that useful against enough things.
Hey,
Just posting your list without any other information doesn't do a lot. It doesn't really incentivice people to reply, nor does it give points of further discussion. Why don't you try to give us a couple of explanations of why you play this deck the way you do? (You already mention Wasteland, but why don't you go in depth here - why doesn't Shardless need Wasteland? What about your 1ofs or the basic lands? What are you currently working on in your sideboard? What makes your list better than others? What are you having troubles with?)
Generally speaking, the more time you invest in your post the more likely other players are to respond. This in turn might cultivate a good climate of discussion, which is what we ultimately want. (especially in the DtB section)
So do yourself and others a favor and extend and upgrade your post.
Thank you.
Greetings
Wasteland is too good to not play. Yes, the deck is mana hungry, but it also runs Deathrite Shaman to assist with casting spells. Additionally since the games tend to go long, you want Wasteland to help keep you ahead of your opponent's curve. Finally, there are mana problematic utility lands in Legacy that can be dealt with via Wasteland and *can't* be hit by your alternative removal spells (e.g. man-lands such as inkmoth nexus). Not running Wasteland is simply inferior, and it's a necessary component of this deck in the current metagame.
Wasteland is absolutely essential in the current meta. You can't really beat Lands without it, and it does so much to help in other matchups. I don't like Top or MD Jitte at all. They're low impact hits off of Shardless Agent and neither does anything immediately other than consume mana, and in the case of Top you're already running Sylvan Library which is just better when you aren't running non-Force counterspells. The first Hymn just seems like it introduces variance and is worse than the fourth Force of Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPTyson
Does anyone have any thoughts on Scavenging Ooze as a sideboard card? A friend suggested it to me last night as he was bludgeoning me with his burn deck and I kinda liked the idea. Now I don't think a single Ooze in the board would really make too much of a difference in a match but it got me thinking on the value of the card overall to the deck.
Pros are it can be cascasded into and is a reasonable graveyard hate card that plays nice with Goyf while still being versatile. I can envision a lot of matches where an Ooze might be better than your worst card (it seems fine in grindier matchups and as a way to mess with opposing Snapcaster mages and Deathrite Shamans)
Cons are that it's kinda a jack of all trades, master of none. Also maybe a potential lack of green mana sources (I play with 2 Trop, 2 Bayou, 1 Forest as G producing lands).
I think I'm gonna at least give it a spin for a couple weeks in my playgroup but I was wondering what kind of experiences others have had with it.
I really don't like additional creatures as something that can be cascaded into. I'm also not aure what Ooze accomplishes against Burn, as it's very slow. If Burn is a problem in your meta, I'd say to just run Nourish or Feed the Clan in the board. They get your life total into a safe range much more quickly than Scavenging Ooze, have a smaller green mana requirement. I'm alao not sure how often it'd better in Deathrite standoffs than Disfigure or even Go for the Throat. If you want another beater then I think Tombstalker is the best option, and if you want another lifegain or value creature there's always Courser of Kruphix.
hi all, first post but ive followed this thread for a while now trying to learn as much about this deck as possible but still i have so many questions.
first off heres my list, its inspired by bahra with some tweaks of my own.
1 bayou
1 tropical island
4 underground sea
1 forest
1 swamp
4 wasteland
1 marsh flats
1 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
4 ancestral vision
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
2 hymn to tourach
4 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
4 force of will
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
1 baleful strix
4 shardless agents
1 sylvan library
2 liliana of the veil
1 jace the mind sculptor
sideboard
pithing needle
null rod
grafdigger's cage
disfigure
golgari charm (have been trying this recently in place of night of souls' betrayal and have been liking its modal qualities! and its not the worst to cascade into really since you dont have to cast it...)
duress
3 thoughtseize
scrubland
ethersworn canonist
3 meddling mage
my flex spot in sideboard has been: nihil spell bomb, vendilion clique, life from the loam
what do you guys think about those three cards? ive been happy with nihil spellbomb against rug delver, the mirror, dredge and storm but sometimes nonbos with null rod so have been playing around without it because null rod is obviously a lock in board.
so far ive tried versions without md discard and i loved it but recently have been trying the two hymns main to shore up game one combo win percentage and also i love hymn to tourach so why not play it yknow!? i was tired of fighting my love for the card, although i basically am removing my 3rd liliana and 2nd jace to do so.
also sylvan library is amazing obviously.
sideboard plans
miracles
+1 golgari charm, +1 pithing needle (usually on top or jace but can shut them down off of fetches if necessary), +1 null rod, +1 vendilion clique, +1 duress.
-2 liliana of the veil, -1 baleful strix, -1 ancestral vision, -1 force of will.
agressively try to keep them off top whether it mean force it or abrupt decay top in response to a fetch. although resource heavy sometimes you can force them to fetch in response to tops activated draw: if they have unpopped fetch and you have waste and abrupt decay up, abrupt top they will try to tuck top waste fetch in response either they lose their land or their top. neither is good for them if you maintain a resource advantage it seems to go in your favor. any more advice?
storm combo
+1 scrubland, +3 meddling mage, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 duress, +3 thoughtseize, +1 null rod, +1 pithing needle, +1 grafdigger's cage
-4 abrupt decay, -4 tarmogoyf, -1 sylvan library, -2 liliana of the veil, -1 swamp
usually name infernal tutor with mm first then tendrils, but if ethersworn canonist is out you can name abrupt decay and sometimes ride it out, but its safer to just name tutor and their win con. pithing needle can name fetch or top i can go either way on this one. remember to eat tutors then rituals with deathrite.
death and taxes
+1 golgari charm, +1 disfigure, +1 pithing needle, +1 null rod, +3 thoughtseize
-4 force of will, -2 hymn to tourach, -1 baleful strix
pithing needle on vial, equipment, stoneforge, wasteland, or port are my usual targets. the first 3 being in an emergency since we have so many other answers to vial swords of x and stoneforge. even though needling a wasteland will stop yours, you have less targets than they do to waste.
grixis tempo
+1 golgari charm, +1 disfigure, +1 life from the loam
-2 hymn to tourach -1 force of will (if on the play will sometimes bring +3 thoughtseize and -2 force of will and -1 vision, not sure if this is correct though)
try to survive into late game, play around stifle and daze always play your uncounterable spells last. gurmag is bad but not unstoppable with pulse lili or jace.
elves
+1 golgari charm, +1 disfigure, +1 scrubland, +3 meddling mage, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 pithing needle, +1 grafdigger's cage, +3 thoughtseize, +1 duress basically all your cards haha
-1 jace the mind sculptor, -2 liliana of the veil, - 4 ancestral vision, -1 swamp, -4 tarmogoyf, -1 sylvan library
mm names natural order then glimpse of nature then gsz unless you have more info. dont force early glimpses when it seems like they wont be able to go off with what they have but if it seems like they could possibly then yea force the glimpse but usually save fow for natural order. kill all creatures, especially wirewood, unless pithing needle has shut it off, dont get into deathrite battles with them they will untap you into oblivion and almost always win. also save wastes for cradle unless theres no way they can save their dryad. elves have so many shenanigans that you might not notice. pay attention to the board. quirion untaps things and saves "forests" very easily, wirewood saves elves, crop rotation nulls your wastes. watch out for choke after sideboard. its a difficult matchup but golgari and toxic deluge will win you the game, gl though getting through nettle sentinel with your shardless and meddling mages haha. dont forget charm can regenerate creatures to null their abrupt decays.
dredge
+1 grafdiggers cage, +1 pithing needle (on cephalid coliseum), +1 scrubland, +3 meddling mage, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 null rod (if you see leds), +1 nihil (if ya got it) +3 thoughtseize, +1 duress
-2 liliana of the veil, -4 abrupt decay, -2 hymn to tourach, -1 sylvan library, -4 tarmogoyf
meddling mage names cabal therapy first, then dread return. watch out for the 2 mana imp that allows them to discard, also breakthrough is breakbroken in their deck, otherwise force dread returns. deathrite is your allstar, eat ichorid and narcomebas in response to their triggers to enter the battlefield. if nothing else eat the nephilim or the flayer of the hatebound.
burn
i hate this matchup and have never won a game.
+1 disfigure +1 scrubland, +3 meddling mage, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 pithing needle (on lavamancer or barbarian ring), +1 duress, +3 thoughtseize +1 golgari charm
-1 jace the mindsculptor, -1 sylvan library, -4 tarmogoyf, -1 baleful strix, - 2 liliana of the veil, -1 wasteland, -2 ancestral vision
stay off non basics if possible or keep wastelands open to waste your own non basic in response to price of progress. mm names price of progress. remember to get value off of brainstorms by stacking land on top if theres a goblin guide out. protect your deathrites, they will win you the game.
lets talk other matchups some other time let me know if you have any other troublesome matchups!
recently ive been trying something new. if im searching for something important ill brainstorm with a fetch backup to shuffle away nonsense. but if im just sitting pretty ill fetch first then brainstorm to set up shardless. wether or not i have a shardless this has been working fairly well. by running 10 fetches i almost never get brainstorm locked. any feedback there?
what do you guys think about hymn to tourach? when does it stay in when does it come out?
what matchups is jace necessary in? miracles for sure but what else i feel like he comes out alot.
what about liliana i love her to death but i lose alot of games where i fire her ultimate off.
usually i try to establish board presence with deathrite, then goyf then shardless. then get planeswalkers out and then modify my hand or theirs and set up shardless. do you think its better if given the choice to fire off hymn turn 2 before playing goyf? you have the chance that goyf sticks then your grow goyf with hymn and attack for a million.
ok hopefully this is a nice place to start thanks for any feedback you have for me! :cool:
I'll share my thoughts on some of your questions in no particular order:
- I dig Nihil Spellbomb. In addition to being solid graveyard hate, the fact that it cantrips means it can never be that bad, and being an artifact that can just sit around until you find a good spot for it means it's a reasonable cascade. I've also been coming around to Clique - it's solid against combo and Stoneforge Mystic decks and isn't the worst against Delver just to see their hand and trade with a delver. Haven't tried Loam but in your deck with so many Wastelands I can see it being good as another way to grind people out while helping you from getting wasteland locked out of the game.
- Burn is an awful matchup and unless you're willing to donate SB slots to incredibly narrow cards like Chill, I think the best thing is just to accept that you'll probably lose and hope to dodge it. If Burn is big in your meta then Chill could be fine, especially if there's also other mono red decks like Imperial Painter and Blood Moon/Chalice Stompy.
- In general I find the D&T matchup to be super fun and extremely interactive. Definitely bring in Disfigure in that matchup, and I wouldn't cut Strix since they've got a good deal of flyers in Serra Avenger, Flickerwhisp, and Vryn Wingmare
- Hymn is a great card overall and one of my favorites. It's obviously great against most combo (not Reanimator or Dredge tho). I've found it's not at it's best against Delver decks though, especially on the draw where it's just too slow.
- It obviously depends on the matchup (are they a spell pierce deck and have a blue open?) but I'd probably rather play Hymn before Goyf, especially if Goyf is just gonna be puny when you play him. Turn 2 Hymn also gives you a better chance to mana screw your opponent if you happen to get their lands. Shardless isn't gonna win any games quickly so give your Hymn the chance to do the maximum amount of damage.
- Pithing Needle is not good against Storm, I wouldn't even bother.
- Liliana is great against Miracles, please don't sideboard her out. She's very hard for them to get off the board (especially post board when they usually cut FoW).
Liliana isn't that good against Miracles actually. Usually a good miracles pilot will just let you throw away your hand (while they throw blanks they find with top) and then before the ultimate they will play a snapcaster/clique and attack her down to non-ultimate range, continue the game and slam something you will struggle to beat like Jace/entreat/mentor. If you think about it, Top is a very good card against Liliana and that makes keeping her in against a deck designed to abuse (and find) that card a poor strategy. Yes, sometimes she just runs away with the game but you don't have to go for that all-in approach. Just play conservatively and keep your counters for the few key spells that matter (don't force top).
So what spells matter other than entreat, jace, mentor and terminus? Do you mean like counter only the spells you can't get rid of otherwise like we can deal with top with decay, null rod, pithing needle but entreat and terminus must be countered? What about rest in peace how much do we care about this card is it a card worth fighting over? It seems pretty bad shutting off goyf and deathrite but should we just try to get it with decay/ golgari/ maelstrom? Thought seize seems pretty bad against miracles is that true? Clique, Duress, and hymn seem good though, does that make sense? I've heard of us described as the beatdown in this match up but it seems as if I do better if i just play as another controlish deck. Has anyone tried bringing meddling mage in naming terminus? I have and it ended up becoming a huge lightning rod, I couldn't tell if it was worth it... Pretty sure Liliana isn't good in this match up.
We are sort of the beat-down, but not in the traditional sense that we need to aggro them out our just lose after they stabilize. Usually the games go long and are extremely interactive but because we have more CA we can win longer games a lot of the time anyway. That means we don't have to force Top, play a fast Liliana and go for her ultimate, we can drag the game out and just grind them down.Quote:
Originally Posted by minyafriend
What exactly you force depends very much on how the game is going and what's in play/in your hand. If you can't beat RiP, then yes, force it. But usually you can just decay RiP and move on with the game. If you can't beat a terminus (because you have overextended, which you should not) then yes, force terminus. But usually the only cards that you really want to force are Jace and Entreat, those cards are very tough to deal with otherwise, although Jace is sometimes possible to just beat down.
Thoughtseize is pretty poor game 1, but if they bring in a lot of reactive spells like REB/Pyroblast post-board (they will), discard becomes more potent as they will allow you to push trough visions/Jace more easily. Usually they also bring in Cliques and mentors, which also makes seize a better card than Liliana. Always evaluate sideboard-cards based on how the opponent will sideboard against you, the impact of certain cards can really change from pre- to postboard.
Meddling Mage is really poor, they have StP, Terminus, REB, Pyroblast and maybe EE/Verdict which makes it impossible to make the right decision in naming.
So a modified sb would beQuote:
Originally Posted by minyafriend
+Golgari, null rod, pithing needle, duress, thoughtseize and clique
-2 Liliana, baleful strix, toxic deluge(good against mentor and the x/1s but doesn't seem as good as my other cards?) 1 ancestral and 1 force? Taking an ancestral out feels wrong I'm struggling here haha.