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It's interesting for sure. It does eliminate dead draws like Dream Stalker/Arctic Merfolk, however I suspect it will surely durdle worse than a regular Shardless BUG deck. For that reason I'd rather keep the 2 card combo of Recruiter/Aluren
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Both Recruiters force you to run 4 colors, which translates to a mana base weaker to nonbasic hate. They also promote the inclusion of Deathrite Shaman, which allows graveyard hate (including opposing Deathrite Shamans) to nullify a mana accelerator and fixer. They force you to run Dream Stalker or Arctic Merfolk, both terribly bad creatures. Both Recruiters are mere 1/1s for 3 mana in a world of Goyfs, Delvers, Pyromancers, Nemesis, etc. which makes them rather underwhelming. Both are tutors that can't find Aluren, Cabal Therapy, Force of Will, Abrupt Decay, or most of the typical sideboard cards.
Both Recruiters basically suck, especially without Aluren, for all the reasons above. But ever since Portal Three Kingdoms became legal in Legacy, people have only wanted to see the "it's a 2-card combo" part. It's been like this for years, and now that Recruiter of the Guard has eliminated the money issues, people are more convinced than ever that Aluren isn't viable without Recruiters. As you have surely guessed by now, I disagree wholeheartedly. But the good thing is that Aluren may get more popular now, which could lead to new lists, or at least help people realize Recruiters aren't as hot as they look on paper. For now, every time I've discussed them with friends or known players in my area and explained my points above, the closest answer ressembling a rebuttal has always been "but it's a 2-card combo!".
It's super strange to me that your argument boils down to:
1) Recruiters are bad because they are clunky
2) Recruiters are bad because they make you another colour, thus weaker to non-basic hate
3) Recruiters make you play Dream Stalker or Arctic Merfolk
Then you play 4 Cavern Harpy (which are far clunkier and worse without Aluren than Recruiters or Dream Stalkers are), 4 Coiling Oracles which are as "Useless" as the Recruiters are, and play the same number of basics as other lists leaving you just as vulnerable (since if you cast Recruiters generally you find it the turn you cast it).
Cavern harpy & coiling/shardless/baleful are a draw engine, harpy can still kill delvers and easily block-bounce tarmogoyfs and is immune to removal. It is not that clunky.Quote:
Originally Posted by yoshipwnz
I am not saying that recruiterless lists are better in the actual metagame (I do not know), but there is some points at saying that recruiterless can be interesting.
It is noteworthy that a number of lists have played without recruiter, including the ones which have started this very thread, while globally the options were not that dissimilar (I would even say that imperial could have seem better then, as the three aforementioned creature which create CA with harpy were not available then, and raven familiar is probably much more clunky).
manabasewise, only comparing the number of basics is wrong, as if you play one less colour, you do not need to fetch dual that often.
after playing the bug opposition deck for 17 matches in paper, i think the massive amount of consistency brought from all the cantrip guys will provide a lot of stability for the aluren deck. i think cartesius' version merits a lot of exploration before changing it.
Cavern Harpy is clunky, yes. In fact, Cavern Harpy is the main reason Recruiters are bad. Imagine if it was green and returned any creature without color restrictions. Oh boy. I've been waiting for something to replace it for years, but nothing so far has been released.Quote:
Originally Posted by yoshipwnz
Anyway, the reason you can (but don't have to) run 3-4 Harpies is if all or most creatures in your deck are blue or black. That means you can hardcast them and always have something to return. In the old Extended lists most creatures were green, so Harpy was way more useless. Also, I'd take an unkillable flying 2/1 (which I can't leave out anyway) over a 1/5 every time.
Coiling Oracle is not useless at all. I don't see how a cantrip creature can be. This one even has an added synergy with library manipulation to accelerate you. I'm not saying it's the second coming of Jesus, because it obviously isn't, but it has pretty good value.
I'm not judging Recruiters from a theoretical standpoint. I bought 4 Imperial Recruiters around 8 years ago and played them extensively in Aluren and other decks. I tried every list I could think of, with 4 Recruiters and 2 Arctic Merfolk, with just 2 Recruiters, with 4 and 0 Merfolks, with Tinder Wall, with Veteran Explorer, with and without Chain of Vapor, with and without Taiga, with Living Wish... The cost of putting Recruiters in the deck (color, Stalkers/Merfolks, tempo) is too much. Being unparalleled with Aluren resolved never compensated for me.
Then again, I've never been a pro player - maybe it's me who sucks. But please, take into account that Recruiters do have disadvantages, and that being a 2-card combo may not blow them out of the water.
EDIT: I just realized you might have mistaken me for the guy from that link - I'm not. I personally never played Aluren with less than 6 basics, Veteran Explorers or not, and I don't see the point of running more than 1 Parasitic Strix.
Question for experts!
I looked at the 1st page but its outdated.
With recruiter + aluren how can you conbo off and how many spot removal cards can you play around?
I know you can play around some buy how many is this and how you do it?
Thanks
I am no expert but can easily answer that. One removal does nothing if you hold only one recruiter, two wrecks you if catches you unaware and you play one harpy and two bounce creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
You start by chaining recruiters. Then, while having 3 on board, you fetch a bounce creature. You play it, it does not target so spot removal does nothing, bounce a recruiter, play it for a second bounce creature, bounce recruiter, fetch harpy. Then as an answer to harpy on the stack, if there is two removals for both your blue bounces creatures, you're wrecked. If you play a third bounce creature, you are fine to play against two removals.
Later on, you play your strix only with all your bounce creatures in hand and the harpy bounce on the stack.
A third bounce creature on SB can be useful against decks that play StP-SCM and REBs, as SCM is made free by aluren.
You're mostly correct up to here. What you want to do at this point is:Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
1. Play Cavern Harpy, if they pass, goto 2. If they target(1) Stalker 1 in response to casting Harpy, allow the removal to resolve.
2. With the gating trigger on the stack, you play the second Stalker. If they target(2) Harpy in response to you casting Stalker 2, or the gating trigger, pay a life to return Harpy. If they target either Stalker, just bounce the other one. Allow the trigger of Stalker 2 to resolve. If they target it with the trigger on the stack, re-cast Harpy. If they then have the third(3) removal for Stalker in response to you casting Harpy again you're done unless you have a 3rd effect somewhere. You then just use the Stalker 2 trigger after it dies to Recruiter it up. Usually E. Witness. Otherwise, you return Stalker, re-cast Harpy, and again with the gating trigger on the stack, re-cast Stalker. This time, get Recruiter for Strix. Pay a life. Rinse. Repeat.
So they have to be able to play 3 instant speed removal effects on 3 separate targets in one phase. And sweepers at best still count as one. And even that's no good if you have a Witness available unless all 3 are Plow.
I do not get it. If they have two removals, they play it at your two stalkers, responding to the ETB effect of the second one, and you are screwed before having access to cavern harpy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
We agree that you start by chaining recruiters, then the two stalkers before grabbing the harpy, right? Otherwise they will need only one removal.
So two removals are enough if you start with only 1 recruiter in hand and only two stalkers in the deck.
Or did I miss something?
You play the Stalker 2 after Harpy has resolved, but with it's gating trigger unresolved. If they target either Stalker at that time, with Harpy's gating trigger still on the stack you pay a life to return Harpy. Then with their removal on the stack you replay Harpy, putting another gating trigger on the stack, which will resolve before their removal.
How do you grab harpy before playing stalker 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
If you:
1) chain recruiters
2) play stalker 1, bounce rec, play rec
3) fetch and play harpy with stalker 2 in your library
You just lose to one removal (played on stalker as an answer to harpy on the stack). I cannot see how to beat one removal if not by grabbing harpy after the 2 stalkers.
Can you elaborate your exact sequence, starting with only aluren on play and one recruiter in hand? I probably fail to see something here.
You're right in that you have to have either one Stalker, Harpy, or Witness in hand already for this to work. Sorry for the confusion.
Always good to try to figure out other sequences, even when none exists :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
So, I guess the global answer to Togores's question is that they need as much removal as you have stalkers, plus one if you have either rec, harpy, stalker, witness in hand additional to the one that started the combo.
Right. I missed the "only Recruiter' part of the question. And it's plus one for each of those in your opening hand, since you can respond with any of them once you have the first Stalker.
That's why you chain recruiters first - so that you can get the hard-combo into your hand. If you can get it to the point where you have two blur gating triggers on the stack, they have to have play their removal on all three of your gatings in response ot all of the triggers. If they do not, you can chain your combo again for nothing, as none of your triggers target.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Someone should probably make a flowchart image of how to combo off with the deck and just post it every so often when people ask how it works.
That is a good idea, also maybe update the first post with a new primer that reflects what the deck is now not was like 5+ years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
I'm cross-posting this to the Food Chain thread to see more opinions.
I've viewed recent incarnations of Aluren and Food Chain as being quite similar for the past few years and I've always considered giving them a try but never pulled the trigger. I'd like to take one of them for a spin at my weekly soon, but I'm having trouble deciding between them. What are the major pros and cons to Aluren from your perspectives?
Opponent can still respond to the Harpy cast by removing the two bouncers, which is what was being said earlier. The combo is always at it's most vulnerable while Harpy is on the stack. You can only play around as many removal spells as you have bouncers unless you started with more than a single Recruiter in hand. That's typically enough, given that you're also running countermagic/discard to disrupt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
I had some time to kill. Fair warning, it's intentionally pretty dry and the number of steps means it's fairly large. I went for the most removal resistant path. It obviously doesn't take everything that could be going on (interaction from your opponent, needing to find EWit, having a low life total/playing around burn, etc) into consideration, but it should give anyone interested at least some idea of how the combo kill works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
Posting a link rather than an image out of consideration for the thread: http://i.imgur.com/6vJalPt.png