[Deck] Belcher

The long game with Belcher isn't long per se. But from my experience testing the grind plan in PSI, being able to still be very much in the game 10 turns into the game, even with Counterbalance, Top, Jace, Liliana, with an opponent holding several countermagic. I've won through that exact board position many times. I think its time we started porting some of this strategy over to Belcher. Carpet of Flowers... is absolutely nuts in the mid to long game. Belcher also needs a lot of time to rebuild so having a Carpet and forcing the blue player to sandbag you on lands allows you more time to rebuild, meaning you can land Empty the Warrens, or try to land a Belcher with some protection spell.

Go off or bust is a strategy that works when racing bears and other lock pieces. You need a contingency plan against blue. They don't often play lock pieces so you'll ideally have time to assemble multiple attempts or one solid attempt with Empty the Warrens, especially if they don't expect Carpet of Flowers, or sit on fetches as you acquire more IMS's and artifacts that you can land on the board and sculpt your hand. The long Belcher gets to sculpt its hand, the greater chance the U player has of running into Empty the Warrens instead of something they can counter.

There's always Flusterstorm, which is run quite frequently in the sideboard. Autumn's Veil plays around it rather nicely but Flusterstorm doesn't hit Belcher. This means if Veil is protecting Belcher rather than Empty the Warrens, then your opponent will have to choose wisely with their countermagic. Holding onto Flusterstorm in fear of Empty the Warrens could lead to a resolved Belcher. Keeping Probe in post-board would likely help facilitate this.

Consider i wanted to play a wishless list, could i get away with only 2 LEDs ?

Its probably easier to cut LED's when you don't run wish. Often you need that extra mana that way you can hit 6 for Empty the Warrens. Granted, with LED you are aiming to hit 4 to 5 mana rather than 4 to 7 so it should be easier. Throw a list onto Cockatrice and see which mana sources you can substitute for LED.

I find that when running a wish-less build (which I do) I typically find the belcher win condition more often than the EtW win condition (which is exact opposite of wish builds). What that means is that cutting the LEDs means you are actually hurting your chances of that turn 1 belch for lethal. Sure, the LED is much more useful in a wish build post casting a wish or what ever. But don't forget about belcher activations on turn 1. When running wishless, that turn 1 belcher activation IS the game. You'd be hard pressed to get there without LED.

Well given the actual number of win conditions after Reforge the Soul, its split between Belcher and Empty the Warrens so you aren't actually winning with Belcher more than EtW per se. Rather, you aren't finding it 7/11 times like you do in classic Belcher because you cut Wish for Reforge the Soul.

So I've been goldfishing the list with Reforge the Soul and it seems legit and is as explosive (if not more explosive) than the Wish build.

Now I'm no belcher expert, just got interested about a month ago, but I believe the deck's greatest strength against Force of Will.dec is them loosely keeping hands without force of will especially game 1. Now if we run a card that lets them basically get a free mulligan to 7 chances are they will get that force of will to screw with us. Given this I think that the Burning Wish variant is still superior.

Just my 2 cents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by karaxu

So I've been goldfishing the list with Reforge the Soul and it seems legit and is as explosive (if not more explosive) than the Wish build.

Now I'm no belcher expert, just got interested about a month ago, but I believe the deck's greatest strength against Force of Will.dec is them loosely keeping hands without force of will especially game 1. Now if we run a card that lets them basically get a free mulligan to 7 chances are they will get that force of will to screw with us. Given this I think that the Burning Wish variant is still superior.

Just my 2 cents.

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I see where you are going, but I'm not sure it's the right approach.

Full disclosure: I play PSI, not Belcher, but the decks have a lot in common. I run Summoners Pact in the main deck, so on game 1 against blue decks I have to hope they don't have the Force, or I will be killed by my own Pact trigger the turn after I fizzle. No second chances for me!

That doesn't bother me, though, because Pact is awesome against everything not blue. Against blue, however my Pacts come out and my 15 card anti-blue sideboard comes in. It's very, very good against blue.

I can only do that, though, because I actually have a sideboard. BW Belcher does not. So rather than just looking at game 1, think about games 2 and 3, where the blue player absolutely-positively-without-a-doubt has FoW. BW Belcher doesn't really have any new tricks for that. Wishless Belcher probably does.

If BW Belcher and Wishless Belcher goldfish equally well, why not try giving a real sideboard a try? It seems to me the only thing holding back Belcher is the poor matchup it has against blue in games 2 & 3. This could fix that issue.

Yeah I agree people really need to start experimenting with sideboards for this deck because the current plan is frankly shit; there's a good reason Belcher has been thrown to the way side. WotC has gotten stormhate happy over the past like every set since the we had a combo winter with TES and Belcher, and then there was a Mystical Tutor ban after Ad Nauseam got printed. Empty the Warrens isn't even a surefire kill anymore since Flusterstorm got printed. Then there's Maverick, which is almost ensured a turn 2 bear, putting a lot of pressure on the Belcher player to win or gain evitability on the first turn.

Reforge the Soul could be the way to go but from testing I've concluded that its a good variation but not necessarily strictly better in all matchups. I'd have to do way more testing to reach a final decision and frankly, I'm rather lazy when it comes to testing Belcher. The deck isn't really that much fun after you've played a solid 100 games with it.

I'd point anyone interested in running Reforge as a business spell towards don'tbiteitholmes Flames Belcher list. Its really fucking good; I've played it a lot on Cockatrice to try to come up with a better build but I just settled on his list after testing a bunch of variations. It goes off turn 1 one quite often or sets up a turn 2 kill consistently, and you can set up with protection and have way more multiple attempts than Classic Belcher lists ever could. Also, even when you are passing the turn the list has a lot of ways to bypass disruption. Personal Tutor --> Reforge is actually an excellent play because it opens up your initial mana sources and rituals to produce enough mana to pay for or bait Spell Pierces given that Reforge only costs 1R. Also, you can bait (at least in game 1) with Seething Song to draw out Force and then play Personal Tutor. Next turn you're going off for 1R after drawing out their countermagic and perhaps you have a LED or IMS(s) to play around Spell Pierce. Granted they might draw into a Force in the new 7 but this deck plays maindeck Autumn's Veil so sometimes you can set up a turn where Veil resolves in response to Force after you pay the Miracle cost. Then, the rest of your attempt is protected, even from Flusterstorm. The deck seems like a pretty powerful Belcher variant, especially when there isn't anything new really to expect out of Belcher lists because everyone has been playing practically the same Classic Belcher maindeck and sideboard since like 2007 when Empty the Warrens got printed (with a few exceptions of cyclers). Its time to switch it up and push players toward variations.

The only thing I think should become standardized is a microwishboard. Seriously you almost never have the opportunity to wish for something other than Empty the Warrens so its rather pointless to run a bunch of cards that only improve the match ups you are supposed to win anyway. Otherwise this deck has almost no game plan against blue. UW is setting up Terminus with Brainstorm or Etutor for EE while BUG is going to cantrip into Pulse or Deed. It happens... way too often. This deck has a better game plan against Tempo but they often run post-board Flusterstorm so that they don't lose to Empty the Warrens. And then there is always Snapcastered Flusterstorm... Its tough but with only 6 dedicated sideboard cards, your sideboard plan isn't going anywhere. Also, just think about it. This deck plays about 11 business spells, give or take one; its not going to often have the 2nd business spell to BW into an answer and follow it up with another business spell. Just test a microwishboard and see how you like having +7 cards against blue. You only need like 3 or 4 cards MAXIMUM for a wishboard in Belcher. Anything else is just give you overkill on resources you never use and you wind up just wasting space.

In general, I think these ideas should be explored.

Carpet of Flowers > Seething Song (POST BOARD)

Seething Song is a huge counter target. Itusually gets you to 4-6 storm for an otherwise uncounterable Empty the Warrens. The fact that you have to invest 3 mana means you probably aren't going to go off with anything else on that turn so it gives them time to cantrip into another counterspell and put a clock on you. Since Belcher has to invest most of its hand into a turn, its going to take a solid 3-5 turns to even have enough cards to do something (3 cards if you have perpetual resources). Carpet on the other hand can be used as a ritual mid spell chain provided you pass to 2nd main phase. If your opponent cracks fetches to counter something, you can play this, pass to 2nd mainphase, add a bunch of mana and perhaps play a 2nd business spell. It also helps you play a grind game if you can up your post-board business spells to at least 15 (otherwise you won't be able to play business spells fast enough and run them dry of countermagic). Its a solid one drop and allows you to build up to perhaps a double EtW or Autumn's Veil protected turn. To draw a comparison to PSI, Belcher has an easier time winning with IMS's than rituals in PSI so as long as you land perps, you can go for an EtW turn as they sand bag you on Islands (which isn't as effective considering the number of perps this deck has) until you can go for double business or double business + Veil ideally... or just try to draw into your Empty the Warrens. Its really underplayed in Belcher considering how powerful it is. For the investment, Seething Song adds RR while Carpet will often add as little as 1 per turn (blue usually needs at least one Island to play cantrips) to as much as 4-6 against slower control decks.. per... Carpet. Free business spells? Fuck yeah.

Protection spells > Cyclers (POST-BOARD)

Cyclers... make hands hard to keep. A hand with 2 cyclers might draw you into 2 business spells when you want mana sources, vice versa, or perhaps even 2 protection spells when you need a business spell. Having protection spells in place of your cyclers means you won't need to discover whats on top of your deck. It makes mulligans more consistent and you aren't taking out crucial cards from the deck. Gitaxian Probe is one of these cards. Finding out that your opponent isn't an idiot is the greatest feeling when you see that FoW you really should expect them to have, or Flusterstorm, Pierce, etc. It ought to come out for something that actually draws out a piece of Countermagic. Veil, for example, will almost always draw out a countermagic, sometimes even 2 if you pay for it because they don't know what else you have in hand. I've drawn out 2 Daze, Spell Pierce with it and then went off the next turn through Force. Its an awesome card and severely underplayed compared to Xantid Swarm which has to deal with UR Delver and RUG Tempo which play 8 maindeck burn spells to deal with Swarm; usually they will have an answer for it.

Bloodmoon (POST-BOARD or MAINDECK)
This card... is ridiculous. If you can power it out on turn 1 what are they gonna do? They counter your Burning Wish with Force, then you use the remaining 3 mana to play Bloodmoon. They play a fetch, and pass the turn. Followed by another fetch, and then a dual... It can straight up rape decks with greedy mana bases, especially if played early. Even played mid to late game it can really turn the tide, especially when its +X threats to be played off Carpet. Even if it shuts down the duals that Carpet was using to produce mana, a slower control player who hasn't yet established a clock is going to be hard pressed to get there while you rebuild under the Moon. Pulpfiction used to maindeck them in his list and I've only heard good things about them.

Tropical Island (POST-BOARD or MAINDECK)
I've talked with some oldschool Belcher players who used to play Brainstorm and Meditate in their lists facilitated via Tropical Island. Can't say I've tried it yet but I've seen a list play it before and it completely destroyed a Tempo deck (at a local event). Personal Tutor could potentially see play as well if Trop turns out to be good. don'tbiteitholmes Flames Belcher list plays one in the maindeck and I didn't find myself misfiring often at all.

Hey folks,
i´m new to Belcher and did read mostly the last 20 pages of the thread. I like the idea of dodging B. Wish and its Sb targets to make room for more efficient hate cards. In my opinion this could easily be reached by playing 2 land belcher with B for Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor. Resulting in a something like this:

1 Bayou
1 Taiga

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Desperate Ritual/Pyretic Ritual


Sideboard (15)
3-4 Carpet of Flowers
3-4 Defense Grid
3-4 Duress/Pyroblast/Autumn's Veil
0-3 Pyroclasm
0-3 Nature`s Claim
(0-4 Chain of Vapor?)

Sideboard is up for debate. You could spent minimal 10 Slots for the blue Matchups and maybe play a mix of Pyroclasm and Nature's Claim (or 3-4 Chain of Vapor?) to handle problematic creatures, artifacts, enchantments.
What do you guys think?

Belcher (Wishless-Sideboardless variant :laugh:) placed 2nd in the latest SCG Legacy Open.

Finally people are catching on.

What was the list? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by karaxu

Belcher (Wishless-Sideboardless variant :laugh:) placed 2nd in the latest SCG Legacy Open.

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Somewhere in the middle of the event that guy got a game loss because his brother told him he had to have a sideboard so he stuffed 15 Islands in his deck box and got deck checked.

The top 8 Merfolk kid was pretty funny too. He actually knocked me out of contention in round 7 and the whole time he kept drooling over my dual lands. Then I walked up after he won into top 8 and he was like, "Don't tell the other guys in top 8 I don't play Force" and I had to be the one to tell him the decklists go public, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Finally people are catching on.

What was the list? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

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Catching on? It was another list with no sideboard. He also played 1 LED, it looks more like a budget list more than anything. You can see the list on SCG.

I honestly don't think one list is strictly better than the other. Sure you don't use every card in your wishboard frequently but I think that even with a 12-15 anti blue sb you run the risk of diluting your deck too much and I still don't think it gives you a strong blue matchup. I'd rather not lose to hate bears and decks I should beat when neither deck has a good blue matchup. The current wishboard has 8 anti blue cards which I feel is a sufficient amount to bring in against blue decks. If you're uneasy playing Xantid Swarm you can always play Autumn's Veil instead.

After reading the top8 matches of SCG St. Louis Legacy Open, I noticed that the 48-card Belcher is more resilient to discard effects, this is evident as the pilot was always on the draw in game 1 and always face turn 1 Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize.

Thus making a keep of 2-3 cantrips with no business spell was somewhat good.

I'm referring to the Wishless builds not the sideboardless builds. Thats just lazy people getting lucky at the end of the day. Sometimes you draw the good matchups, and the good cards. The deck is kinda designed to do that anyway. Ultimately, I forsee this deck becoming much more difficult to contend with when it can actually develop a half decent sideboard plan. Frankly, I've been looking at Xantid Swarms again simply because they dodge Pierce and Daze (this deck has no trouble playing around Daze) and Spell Snare. The only thing that stops it is Force and spot removal. If you want to amplify the effectiveness of this plan, why not play Dark Confidants? Drawing 2 cards per turn means Belcher can actually use its life total as a resource to rebuild at twice speed, making a sideboard plan more effective because then you can draw Carpets, and actually have a higher business density since you can also board in business. I think going heavier creatures post-board means you can overload them on their removal spells. Perhaps even Welders. Just theory below:

SB
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Slot (for microwishboard)

4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Goblin Welder
2 Dark Confidant
2 Autumn's Veil

8 business is really pushing it but I guess a 48 card deck realistically means you'll be drawing a business spell every 6 cards. Seems good. The resilence to discard makes sense. I'd think that PiF would make a nice 9th or 10th business spell though. Even with cyclers, if you get the ones you can recast with PiF than 2-3 cyclers turns into 4-6 cards, which, with a 48 card deck means you have a good chance of drawing what you need. I managed to find the lists after all but I was too drunk initially.



Well I guess this answers claudio.r's question; yes you can top8 at an SCG with 2 LED; you can do it with 1 in fact.

hi guys,
and sorry if i ask some stupid things

i like to build this deck, because i like have not "famous " deck, not play many mirror,and i like have combo easy but strong

can help me, about match up ,and how sideboarding in this deck?

in general, is better try to win at start the game, or wait maybe 3-4 turn?

really i try to search in web for little guide about this deck, but i didn find

regards

Hi everyone,

So It's taken me a few days, but I've read through the majority of this thread.
Great read, cheers to all people to post here :smile:

I have a few questions.
Seeing as I'm looking for a budget deck to get into Legacy with, and seeing how LED and Taiga are only five big money cards in this deck, I'd like to give it a go.
I'm a long-time player, but left competitive play alone for quite some years.
I've decided to back on the bike although many of the older cards I (gave away to friends and fam) know and love don't quite work like they used to since the rules changed!

I've did some testing with both Burning Wish, and Wishless lists in a certain deckbuilder based on the net, and I have found wishless to be a little more consistent for a turn 1-2 kill, even though all the -2life cantrips do make your opponents'job easier to nail you. But then again Wish-lists are slightly more likely to go-off against discard and blue.
I did try a black splash for Dark Ritual, but I'm not sure I like it. It just seemed to be a dead card in hand a lot of the time. Thoughts on how to make it more consistent?
So after all that, I'm looking real hard at the Wishless list, and what the sideboard should look like.
As far as I can see, apart from counter - Discard can be tricky if they start using Extirpate/Surgical extraction style effects.

I saw [c]Goblin Bushwhacker[/c] being used somewhere. This seemed like a nice addition for haste - but is there any better options than this?
Would [c]Vexing Devil[/c] be worth an inclusion?
I suggest this mainly for those games where you have nothing to do on turn one (should be rare) or when you've just cast a nice EtW and still have a few mana left after Daze/Spell Pierce insurance. Thoughts?

Finally, what about more (free) cards with phyrexian mana?
[c]Surgical Extraction[/c] for once you've been forced?
Maybe [c]Noxious Revival[/c] to get back your win-con after first turn Thoughtsieze, Duress etc.?
[c]Gut Shot[/c] for more stormin' goblins?
Obviously Gut Shot makes more sense than the others so I favour that, but I'm not convinced any of these are going to be a worthy addition against many decks at all.
And even if I did include Gut SHot, I'd be seriously thinking about Needle Drop.
But really - I guess the main reason for running Surgical Extraction would be coupled with Reforge the Soul.
So you'd go as per normal, but if they counter you - you'd extract their Force/Pierce etc., and then reforge the soul for your win-con. ....I still can't see it being playable.....

Thoughts?

ANyways - just a question I've been wondering throughout this thread.
Since this deck is such a glass cannon;
Has anyone considered using Pact of Negation?
Of course they'd be a risky sideboard option - but if you had a quartet in the sideboard for blue opponents only, you may be able to protect your big bad belcher turn 1 kill from force.

I had another thought too - for the mirror match.
Insurrection / Twisted Allegiance
Can you imagine taking control of all those goblins and finishing someone off?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=48034

Another Top8 for belcher, but there is minimal discussion about it.

I think this deck has reached the point where the core cards are defined and not much innovation is left, still it is a good choice for a tournament cause you just win against those unprepared for it.

Belcher is on a tear and kicking dcks in the dirt left and right lately, it's even beating blue decks. Is this because players are getting better piloting it or is it luck?

Its definitely getting better but mostly because you have to play diverse sideboard hate that covers multiple matchups rather than hate that one-shots a specific deck. Like Mindbreak Trap? Great against Belcher; literally Belcher-pesticide. Leyline of Sanctity, which you can also use against Burn, ANT, TES, and discard, has the disadvantage of not stopping the more common win condition, Empty the Warrens. Then you have the bears, each of which does something relevant, but not til turn 2 and most of them are strong sideboard material against storm/Belcher, but not always in other places. Thalia is good against UR/RUG Tempo because it makes cantrips, burn, ie. everything cost +1.

Thalia is probably the strongest diverse hate that you can play next to Counterbalance. Given that most people need to devote sideboard space to beat the other combo decks like Sneak Show, Reanimator, Dredge.. the can only prepare for so many matchups and Belcher hate usually falls by the way side.


I wouldn't say its fucking people up left and right, but it sure is topping 8 more often.