Interesting build. Did you feel like the inclusion of Mox Diamonds didnt really advance your deck?
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Interesting build. Did you feel like the inclusion of Mox Diamonds didnt really advance your deck?
I'm interested in this as well. I enjoy the idea of going all in on smallpox and removing the DD combo. As someone once told me: 'if you're going to do somethng with your deck, you should be the best deck doing that thing.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjaulnir
In other words:
We can't possibly be a faster DD combo deck than turbo depths. Nor can we be a better DD control deck (rg combo lands).
What we can be, I'm pretty sure, is the best resource denial deck.
I'm particular intrigued by the idea of collective brutality and maximixing our graveyard happy cards. I think, if someone slams a rest in peace, we proceed by playing a comparitvely fair game until we find an Abrupt decay. If Surgical is the greater concern, maybe we pack more Crop rotations so we can Bojuka Bog ourselves in respose (a la r/g combo lands).
Keep me posted with some match by match results.
Biggest question I have about your build is do you have a particular reason for not having cabal pit and (to a lesser extent) tabernacle? It feels to me like, if you're going to cast loam, you should at least consider the ability to recursively keep creatures in check, and I'm interested in your view on that.
I'm sorry, but this is just downright horrible logic. The opportunity cost of adding an oops I win combo (or alternatively, a way to close out the game without needing 8-9 turns for bloodghast / mishra beats) is so low, especially in loam pox, that it would be foolish not to run it. This "rule" is not a rule, and it has many violations throughout legacy, because thats not worthwhile advice in many scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Fair enough. We certainly are not the best dark depths deck though, that's for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Anyway, it's worth considering that if we intend on building a deck around the card smallpox, we should be facilitating that card and enhancing that card as much as possible. A loam package, and therefore dark depths, was a really great idea; however, other than Kennen Haas, we rarely ever have major success. Sure you can point to an event once every 6 months to a year, but at that rate, it could just be fortunate spiking of an event.
Anyway, I do find the idea of a second smallpox-like card, such as collective brutality, being added to the deck and going more all-in withe graveyard happy cards.
I think his build could be strong with cabal pit, darkblast and Tabernacle. Perhaps, replacing the bloodghast with 2/2 stage and depths is a stronger build. In that case you fit in a Nether Spirit.
What do you think?
Actually, the opportunity cost isn't as low as you'd think. For every 'bonus' one adds to Pox decks, you remove disruption. When people suggest the DD combo, I'm reminded of another old school control/combo shell. High Tide.
Combo decks utilize a setup which includes cantrips, hard draw engines, tutors, and lastly anti-disruption like Cabal Therapy or Duress. When you get the combo, you have less black producing mana in the deck [stage depths]. I was a fan of the Vampire Sexmage setup with Dark Depths but the newer Stage Depths setup is obviously harder to disrupt.
Oops I win detracts from the control side of Pox which as was already discussed isn't very strong. What Legacy really lacks is a mega huge semi-creature that can dodge symmetrical effects and doesn't cost anything to punch your enemy's face with. Best of which was Chimeric Idol but 3 damage a turn doesn't seem to impress anyone. (unless you Pox+Smallpox someone, then your 7 turn clock becomes a 4 turn horror)
At the end of the day, play what works for you. I'll admit, I suck with combo bonuses in my Pox deck. Even had some fun time with Helm of Obedience Leyline combos. I also don't want to color splash cause I definitely spend more time durdling when doing so. My Golgari flavored Pox attempts weren't very tasty. There is some logic staying mono color. Tom [the Boss] Ross did so with his Rack Pox last year and Reid Duke's older article stated, "However, Pox is able to operate on very little land (a reason for staying monocolor)".
Think of it this way, what deck is capable of functioning under the worst case scenario (little-no resources)? Combo decks least likely and control decks most likely. Hence why I build my Pox to be as controlling as possible. Sadly, we can't compete with the consistency of Miracles but I keep fighting against it as it's probably my worst matchup. One tidbit, my rival who pilots Miracles specifically (Monastery Mentor tri-color version) says that Chimeric is probably the most annoying threat as it's the only one 'buff' enough to to kill Jace. Scrolls, factories, and spirits, at 2 power alone won't do it. I still say Jace is broken... +2 for that Fateseal really?! :eek:
A lot of your reasoning is why I'm trying mono black next. Fatal Push is brand new and could deal with those awkward death and taxes matchups where targeted and instant speed removal is absolutely necessary. I truly believe that lost legacy could be very helpful out of the board in dark ritual builds. If you are running trinisphere and lost legacy, there's many lines of play to severely hamper your combo opponent on turn one.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
1. Dark ritual into Thoughtseize /hymn
2. Dark Ritual into Trinisphere (vs storm type decks )
3. Dark Ritual into lost legacy vs any deck with limited win cons.
Also worth noting, I think Pithing needle and ratchet Bomb both need to be at least 2 x in the 75. The problem permanent top decks can be anticipated and answered by these cards (jace tms, for example).
Seems like you and I have reached similar deck philosophies...although I do like the opps I win Stage/Depths combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Have you ever thought of running 2x Cabal Therapy in place of 2x Raven's Crime? I'm running them myself and quite pleased...trying to find room for the 4th Bloodghast and 2x Fatal Push...
I like Mox Diamond, and I use it in my Chalice Loam Pox build, but here I don't because I'm running the Pernicious Deeds. It could be that going all in and replacing the Deeds with them could make it even tighter a build. I'll do some test runs to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjaulnir
It's true that Lands is the best lands and Turbo Depths gets Marit Lage out fastest, but I like the disruption and pressure of Pox style. I've played Turbo Depths, and I just came back to keeping the opponent disrupted and on their heels enough that they have no time or resources to worry what I'm doing until their board and hand is a mess and they are staring down a 20/20. For this I've always liked my old Chalice Loam Pox build, that some old timers on this board may remember from a couple of years ago. I've tweaked it a little bit over the past couple of years but mostly it is what it is for the moment. I had some decent success with it, as did a couple of guys I collaborated on it with on another board. That was even being competitive back in Treasure Cruise days. I still trot it out every now and then and it is still a vicious punch to the face. I encourage you to try it if you like using Dark Depths in a Loam Pox shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Trinisphere
2 Sylvan Library
1 The Abyss
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
3 Smallpox
3 Sinkhole
4 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg,* Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tombstalker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Maze of Ith
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
That's pretty much the way you have to play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
The other thing you can do, and I've done this before in Loam Pox builds that really need the Loam is to use a Sensei's Divining Top or two, and tap it to draw and dredge back up your Loam and top deck the top. Works pretty well, but only enough room for so much stuff in a deck.
You are right , and I've moved Cabal Pit in and out of the deck, mostly in order to have a second Swamp. But maybe the other person was right in that with Mox Diamonds you could stabilize Mana against Blood Moon and back to Basics. That makes me wonder if Cabal Pit, especially without a lot of Crop Rotation to tutor it might be better than Maze, though blocking a Goyf or other large creature till they sac it is nice, though hey I'm not running Nether Spirit either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quitrex
I don't own Tabernacle but I tell myself consolingly, even if I did, I wouldn't want to pay for all those Bloodghasts I entombed and Loam ed up, but if I had a Tabernacle I would probably suck it up and aim to Loam up a couple more lands to pay for them, and Bloodghasts get haste under 10 life anyway .
My problem with it was getting people down to 9 life or so with traditional Pox stuff and Factories, and then a combo for 20pts. to win. Great, you won, I guess that worked efficiently. Having Factories and Depths in same deck ,one mus become the plan B option.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Yeah, Cabal Therapy could be very good too, though it is harder to see the hand as well with only Collective Brutality instead of Thoughtseize or G Probe. I think replacing a Raven's Crime or two with them might be a good move.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
True enough. At some point you'd be better off sleeving up Lands or Turbo Depths. I made sure in my Depths Pox games to ensure they had no hand for any surprises to disrupt my combo, or no white land to cast a Swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Piling up the cards when building my deck I figured this is the core:
4 Bloodghast
3 shrieking affliction
1 The Rack
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
12 Swamp
4 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
That's 37 cards. Now, following the motto for Pox builds I should find 23 cards that either disrupt, does damage or provide mana. Any ideas?
Just curious what your reasoning is on playing 3 Shrieking Affliction over 3 The Rack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
While the damage can't be prevented and it may be harder to remove, I think the advantage that The Rack deals damage even at two cards and that it can redirect its damage to planeswalkers seems to be more convincing, don't you agree? Also if you're playing non-black lands it may be easier to cast.
With these Loam Pox builds, I think a Ghost Quarter or two is essential. I'd consider cutting the Sinkholes for them. In playtesting with the Bloodghast build posted above yesterday, something like Miracles can easily wiggle out of a depleted board state with a few basics and a Top and come back to win. Meanwhile, you're either sitting there with a bunch of Wastelands or Loaming into absolutely nothing. Miracles only runs 2 plains generally, not to mention screwing up Ponder and Top stacks.
I don't see much reason to run Loam if you don't have either Waste+GQ or Depths package. This deck doesn't really abuse it well enough from what I've seen, unless you start putting in cycle lands.
If you cut the Depths package, consider using Noetic Scales in the side. Lands can't beat it at all unless they get their Krosan Grips, past that beat the punishing fires/vortex and they can't win at all. Miracles similarly can't win with a Scales on the board outside of Jace...although you would end up giving them endless Snapcasters.
I think I would prefer ensnaring bridge to now tic scales, mostly because it does the same basic thing for one less mana, but also has very relevant text against elves/D&T, and sneak and show variants.
Played a 4 round weekly with this list:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
=4
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sinkhole
1 Crucible of Worlds
=12
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
=12
4 Innocent Blood
3 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Diabolic Edict*
=11
10 Swamps
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
=21
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needles
2 Duress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
1 The Abyss
I went 2-2
Rd 1 vs Aluren.
G1, I soft locked him out early with a dark ritual into Liliana of the Veil. He chained together quite a few creatures in a row, including 2 coiling oracle which hit creatures, thankfull. He eventually drew Abrupt decay and clocked me for many turns with a single coiling oracle. I killed it, and destroyed every many source he had in his deck and he scooped.
G2
He played Tropical and passed. I had one one black mana source but two wastelands and a mishras factory which I thought might be decent and I hoped I'd draw a black mana source to cast the rest of my hand. I Wasteland him and he brainstormed and found one more land but was basically mana screwed out of the game. I clocked him with Nether Spirit and had a Liliana in play as well. Near the end of the game I played a night of Souls betrayal to slow my clock but remove some outs. I don't know it was necessary, I think it would have been better to just stop ticking up Liliana or to discard the night.
Rd 2 vs jund. Lose 0-2
G1 I mulled to 5. My 5 card hand was 2 Swamps, hymn, liliana, ob nixilis. Ob Nixilis feels a little like progenitus in your opening hand. Or maybe it's a better comparison to call it batterskull. It's a card that you on my want to draw later when you're ready for it. More of that later, though. G1, I very nearly pulled. It came down to dueling lilianas. He eventually had a set of top decks that was fairly ideal (something like Abrupt decay, bloodbraid elf, creatures off of bloodbraid) and won. However, in typical pox fashion, had my top deck been kind to me over a couple of turns prior to this sequence, I think I would have come out as the winner, despite the mulls. I think I drew land, land, Thoughtseize Thoughtseize hymn hymn or something, during a critical juncture of the game.
G2, I responded to his first turn Deathrite Shaman on my turn with Innocent blood, wasteland. He proceeded to play his next land and pass. On my turn, I thoughtseized and saw life from the loam and sylvan library and some other stuff. I took the library, I think. Regardless, he ripped a land and won the game with loam.
Rd 3 vs bug leovold splash white. 0-2
G1, I had my opponent soft locked with liliana and mana hate. He drew land and Abrupt decay and took out Liliana and some point. I proceeded to draw 5 straight lands and 3 discard spells while he drew 3 or 4 creatures and won.
G2, I kept a hand with a single black mana source and a wasteland and never drew the second black mana source.
Rd 4 vs punishing maverick 2-0
G1 I won with a dark ritual into Liliana and plenty of relevant creature hate and mana hate. I think I killed every knight of the reliquary in the deck.
G2, I won with the tandem of Liliana and Ob Nixilis. The 5/5 flier killed his Garruk and I picked off two 2/2 wolf tokens on hehe same turn. Using his remaining knight, he killed ob nixilis because Liliana was at 1 counter. I drew a removal spell and won.
Notes:
- Ratchet Bomb is very good, I could see running 2 main deck.
- my list needed more lands. I was running 20 true mana producing lands, and 12 real black sources. I think it should be upped to 22 and 14. Dark ritual was impressive at times, but also was the first thing I sided out in fair matchups, maybe some room could be made there and I could approach the combo matchups differently?
- ob nixilis of the Black Oath seems like it should be much better than ob nixilis reignited. It's second ability is a really excellent clock and it's ultimate seems pretty outrageous and not too far fetched considering we are a resource denial deck. However, I think either version probably suffers the same fate of sitting in our hand and often getting discarded to Liliana. Should it just be in the sideboard for use against grindy matchups? (Miracles/Shardless ?)
- Sea Gate Wreckage was really cool. It was really nice cycling through poor draws to dig to relevant spells. This deck needs more cards that fit well into the deck that can do this.
- per usual, losing when you have an opponent soft locked, is still the bane of the deck. Maybe a color splash fixes it, but I feel like I really relied on being somewhat Wasteland proof.
Thoughts?
4 Dark RitualQuote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
For something different: I'd suggest Collective Brutality or Warping Wail.
I've used Ghost Quarter from time to time in the wishboard in my Chalice build to take care of a basic Plains that escaped the Smallpox or Sinkholes if I was worried about a Swords before tapping out for Marit Lage. But though useful, it doesn't always make it into the sideboard of that build depending on what I need to fight or tutor with Living Wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
As for the Bloodghast/Collective Brutality Build it is more about disruption and keeping them on heels a bit than controlling the lands completely, without Sinkholes , or worrying about a creature or two getting Swords or Terminus. Against Miracles, which can't counter Bloodghast or Factories (8 threats) they do have RIP and sometimes Blood Moon. Tough, but with siding out some of the Loam Package and Innocent Blood for +2 Krosan Grip and +1 Maelstrom Pulse to add to the 4 Abrupt Decay and existing Pernicious Deed , and +3 Duress to existing discard while they try to Top against 1 cmc for most of it (Collective Brutality is 2) It becomes a bit harder for them to dial up the three cmc counterbalance on defence. So for a Pox build Miracles isn't as bad a matchup as it could be.
Someone once said on some thread or another here on The Source that if your deck has no game or plan against Miracles, it's probably not going to work out in the long run. Honestly mono red burn is one of the tougher matches, so the Chalice helps in the Chalice/Depths build and Collective Brutality is a good card against Burn (which also doesn't care about Loam wastelock-so side out some Loam) . Still a tough ask even with Bloodghasts pecking away. Rack heavy mono black builds can sometimes race burn.
Are you going to try Fatal Push?Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
I could see how it works vs Innocent Blood, which one is most useful in most situations encountered. I like the idea of targeting Deathrite Shaman above all. The second clause would probably only get occasional use. Instant is always good. I can see Loam Pox being able to use the permanent clause more efficiently than most decks having black.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
Remember Innocent Blood can take care of Batterskull and True-name Nemesis, and avoids Mother of Runes.
Yea, but so does Smallpox and Liliana of the Veil, but like you said I really like Fatal Push against Deathrite Shaman.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Also like fetch, kill a Thought-Knot Seer...
I like keeping Innocent Blood around in the side for Reanimator, SnT etc...
Does creature kill count as disruption?Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
I have sinkhole which disrupt, but am thinking it is timewalk unless paired with something like ankh of Mishra or surgical Extraction.
Any card that disrupts your directly disrupts your opponent's game plan is disruption. Creatures tend to either mana-dork you or punch you in the face to kill you. Both of which furthers your opponent's game plan. Crucible and Sign in Blood do nothing to your opponent directly. They help you recover but while you're recovering, so is your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Sinkhole is a timewalk on your opponent since they now waste a turn getting another land out. That and if you're on the play, you'll have 3 lands on turn 3 while they're at 1 land. Is that not the same as taking an extra turn board-wise? On the Draw it costs them a turn and let's you 'catch up' at worst.
Land Destruction favors more aggressive strategies as you want to kill them before they can recover using bigger/more numerous threats. I'm going to bring back Chimeric Idol and Epochrasite and figure out a more LD focused build but thanks to Liliana being an auto-staple for my personal preferences, I can't use the now un-banned black vise. I would like to see an enemy's face where I'd go Dark Ritual, 3x Black Vice, and then slam them for 9 damage on their upkeep. :laugh:
I suppose sinkhole help bring liliana out since I get one more land in play the next turn.
If ckill is disruption then I see room for 3-4 darkblasts.
Brb
Sinkhole forces some awkward early game plays depending on their land tapped state. If your enemy has 2-3 untapped lands, you Sinkhole them to force them to play their flash creature or instant at a weird time. Then use Liliana to sac their creature. If they're tapped out, have Liliana discard their card in hand first to possibly prevent Force of Wills and then blow up their land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
One of the reasons I fell for Liliana Pox was that I was mesmerized by an old, nigh, ancient R/B precon from Urza's block called Ground Breaker. After much discussion with my old friend and magic coach, he said if you want to go after mana, Pox in legacy is your only real choice. The rest is history.
Also, having cheap / free threats like Bloodghast that rush your opponent's death is good when going the LD route. I've upped my threat count and power a bit to compensate.
Has anyone ever tested Prized Amalgam in the deck? I'm going to be testing that out soon. Seems like with the amount of self discard effects e.g. Lili/Pox/Smallpox I'm always dumping useful cards that if were Amalgams would at least be able to recur off Blooghasts.
Here's the tentative list:
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Hymn
4 Small Pox
4 Innocent Blood
2 Darkblast
4 Sink Hole
4 Waste Land
4 Liliana
4 Dark Ritual
2 Dakmor Salvage
20 Swamps
Sinkhole is better than wasteland in this deck. GravecrawlerQuote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
I will test this deck tomorrow.
4 Bloodghast
1 nether spirit
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 liliana of the veil
4 sinkhole
4 ankh of Mishra
3 darkblast
1 the rack
3 shrieking affliction
4 dark ritual
13 Swamp
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland
1 dakmor salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Interested to hear how it works out!
Especially would like to hear about what you experienced running 4 big Pox and the Ankhs.
Big Pox is probably the single most powerful spell that we have access to in this deck, so it makes sense to try to maximize it and build around it.
Liliana and Smallpox can supplement big Pox, but as mentioned before, neither one provides the key thing that this deck actually struggles with the most: winning the game. Since big Pox can take huge swaths of life out of the opponent, I believe it should be a stronger presence in our lists.
Also, after some more thought and reading some of the other responses on this thread, I'm starting to think that Bloodghast could be essential piece of this deck.
In fact, I think it may actually do the things that we were wanting Mishra's Factory to do, but better. For example:
Points of parity:
- They both attack for 2
- They both "dodge" our symmetrical effects to a degree
Points for Bloodghast
- You actually WANT to discard it
- it's one of the few threats in the entire game that we can get for zero mana invested -- and that can recur multiple times
- We are fine drawing and discarding multiples
- pairs well with Cabal Therapy or other sac effects if needed
- it doesn't interfere with our manabase
- we can realistically attack with multiple Bloodghast in the same turn, whereas with factories it's usually 1 or maybe 2 max
- attacking with it doesn't cause us to expend mana
- has haste when we need it most - toward the end of the game when we are looking to close the game
- if we get the board to a low resource state, any land drop could potentially become a hasty alpha strike of between 2-8 damage
- the only removal that truly gets rid of it is swords to Plowshares, but it's an unappealing target for that because it's a small creature -- and may even be tempo disadvantage if we got the Bloodghast for free
- we generally don't care if it dies
- sometimes we want it to die to enable revolt
- when revolt is a factor, we can create awkward blocks for the opponent where we attack not caring if the ghast dies, and they either take the damage or block and kill it, allowing us to set up fatal push
- cannot be killed with wasteland
- pairs well with big Pox, since even a single pox will bring opponent quite close to 10 life haste range
Points against Bloodghast
- can't block
- might have to pay to cast it if no discard or landfall
- only one toughness means it pairs badly with Night of Souls Betrayal
- against D&T, mother of runes could give pro-black whereas Factory is colorless
- makes us weaker to graveyard hate
I'm sure I missed some points there on both sides, but I think bloodghast does enough things well in this deck, including apply some early pressure if need be, that I'm going to give it some extensive testing.
Would like to hear thoughts from others who have been using Bloodghast, especially in how it compares to Factory.
Just pointing this out, the majority of these posts are essentially rehashing small number tweaks to the same list. There's only so many ways to build Mono-Black Pox, and since it has had basically zero success there doesn't seem to be much reason to keep kicking that dead horse. Anyone thinking they are gonna find some perfect configuration of redundant effects to dominate is delusional, mono-black is garbage and if you want to consistently be competitive you need to move towards something else. Not meaning this to discourage people, but anyone playing Mono-Black Pox is the equivalent of someone playing RUG Delver with Werebear over Tarmogoyf.
I'm still having reasonable success with my BU list. Overly grindy decks are proving to be an issue, I'm still looking for a solution as devoting sideboard slots to become the beatdown deck seems counter-intuitive but trying to out card advantage decks like Shardless BUG has not proved very successful. I'm currently debating on using 3 Sphere of Resistance or Standstill or Thing in the Ice in the board. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be grateful.
The BG decks have plenty of exploration remaining and at some point I will build and test with it. As a passing thought, if you are going to play the Depths combo I would think it important to find a use for at least one of those parts outside of the combo. That to me seems to be an issue, they are both quite dead without the other. Although, the 5-0 deck link post a page or two back seemed like a reasonable direction with the tutoring effects. The tutors have several targets for various board states but provide the added benefit of tutoring up a win-con. I would imagine playing more Depths and Stages is definitely wrong as at that point you're playing a crummy Lands deck.
I would say a BW version with Lingering Souls and Collective Brutality has a lot of potential. Magic Christmas Land of T2 having Urborg and Flagstones in play and casting Smallpox while discarding Blooghast or Lingering Souls would be the best. Beyond that sequence, Collective Brutality with useful cards to discard or delve away could be good. White also has some pretty powerful sideboard options and planeswalkers.
Oh the irony. This post feels kind of familiar. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by sppabin
I disagree. Since Pox cannot be built to lock the game or combo win, in the more inevitable way of typical decks, it is all over the spectrum.
There's also too many cards to choose from and too many interactions to consider when building.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjohnsexton
Some points for mishra,
Blocks as a 3/3, multiple mishra can handle alot of threats. Easilly killing small goyf's at least with 2.
Can be immune to nonwasteland/draw with top removal in combination with discard (raven's crime most common example)
Obviously in loam pox it's searchable with crop roation and recurable with loam.
Actually helps to cast spells
May be some more things Mishra gives, but just a few that could be considered.
What's your UB list look like and how are you sideboarding against Shardless?Quote:
Originally Posted by sppabin
So the irony of saying that mono b should be dropped like a bad habit and then commenting on having issues with shardless makes me want to laugh, since I have yet to lose a long game to shardless with mono b or splashing g for having abrupt decay as my point and click removal spell. There are so many ways to build the deck and be (effectively) mono b that it makes my head hurt, as you need to decide how agressive you want to be (bloodghast vs factories vs scrolls) how much you want to focus on one shot effects vs staying effects (nether void/abyss vs pox/brutality) how much acceleration you want (0-6, diamonds, Rits or both?) and then you get to the impact of how your removal choices play out, how risqué is your mana base, (fetches for push any top vs dust bowl/drownyard temple vs swamps, wasteland, urborg) and that's without touching the sideboard. That being said, one of the common strengths that the basically mono b lists has always had is being very strong against non-top brainstorm decks. We regularly point and laugh at delver, and I think I've lost two sanctioned matches to shardless, both of which were due to my foolishness. My biggest piece of advice for anyone wanting to be able to slaughter a particular deck, you should proxy it or build it and play it for a month. You'll figure out all the points that you, as a pilot of that deck, don't want to interact with. It's how I figured out that shardless literally cannot beat us if we have the abyss out. It's how I figured out what to thoughtseize out of storm hands. It's how I learned where to push and how hard vs miracles (if you can force their fetches, do so, and do everything in your power to keep them off of double white. They basically can't win if big pox resolves, and Liliana plus nether void is basically game over, but they don't care much about chains unless they play mentor.)
I agree on the head hurting. There are many cards that are possible to play in Pox, and it is difficult to choose which and in what combinations.
Yesterday's Ankh-pox, for example, worked reasonable well for being untested. (I defeated 12post and lost to sneak attack and Jund running jitte)
The result was of course dependent on the composition of the whole deck. Any changes will have a cascade effect which is hard to predict. Next time I run ankh it will be without sinkhole and darkblast. That will have an effect in the decks performance, so will the substitutes.