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What's up with everybody naming ToA with meddling mage? What's there to prevent them from just getting a bounce after going wild with AN and casting tendrils after?
I'd rather put it on duress, followed by chant followed by sandbagging all my counters while curbstomping him with 2/2 mages.
I tend to name their tutors, like Infernal Tutor, Mystical Tutor or Burning Wish. Shutting down tutors works well in 2 ways. First, it prevents them from using the tutor to combo, making it harder to go off. Second, it defeats the purpose for them to use a tutor to find a bounce/removal spell for it. It's just another annoyance to their combo'ing, which buys you time, until you can establish more control, or simply win the game with aggro beats.
That's just how I play it, though. I have both MM and CBT postboard vs combo, so I'm already at overkill.
Hanni, have you considered Jace as carddraw? With 4 Top, 4 BS and 8 fetchlands he should be better than Fact or Fiction. In addition his manacosts of 3 are not too bad for Counterbalance (you said the cc of Fact or Fiction were a reason not to play this card in your build). I played him for a long time in Landstill and against some decks he was a very good win condition (against AngelStax for example) which saved me many games. Or is that additional card draw really not needed?
I ran 4x MM, 2x runed halo and 3x ethersworn canonist for a while which was fun :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I did consider running Jace in my sideboad a while back, to bring in to replace Standstill against decks like Dreadstill and Merfolk. In the end, I just didn't feel it was worth it. You don't really wanna lower your 2cc curve against Dreadstill, so your typically bringing in Meddling Mage in place of Standstill. Still decent against Merfolk, but that makes it so narrow that there are better sideboard options (like Path to Exile).Quote:
Hanni, have you considered Jace as carddraw? With 4 Top, 4 BS and 8 fetchlands he should be better than Fact or Fiction. In addition his manacosts of 3 are not too bad for Counterbalance (you said the cc of Fact or Fiction were a reason not to play this card in your build). I played him for a long time in Landstill and against some decks he was a very good win condition (against AngelStax for example) which saved me many games. Or is that additional card draw really not needed?
With so few 3cc spells in the deck, adding 1 more doesn't give the deck a consistent enough 3 drop slot for Counterbalance, so it's not even worth it as far as the Counterbalance curve goes.
I suppose you could drop 1 Standstill for 1 Jace in the maindeck, especially if you plan on playing Vial heavy metagames, so I suppose it's worth testing. Typically though, Counterbalance already generates enough card advantage alonside everything else that it's not really needed.
That just seems like redundant/narrow overkill though. With CBT/Mage, you've got versatile answers to more than just combo. Runed Halo is versatile too, but I couldn't see myself bringing in Ethersworn for any other matchup besides combo.Quote:
I ran 4x MM, 2x runed halo and 3x ethersworn canonist for a while which was fun :)
That's why I don't run it anymore, but it was fun whenever it faced combo :D
I dont think that we will have to devote too much sb to combo here in the near future. With the rule changes in m10 and mindbreak trap in zen. It seems to me that wizards has just hosed combo.
Thats not true and The track is only TRULY usefull if you already have the answer for chant and or duress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
I do this for several reasons when I'm playing against TES:
- Naming Tendrils means they will almost always have to answer it before going off. If you name a tutor, they still will have six other ways to find Tendrils, and they could also cantrip into it or draw into it. I can't counter Tendrils, but I can stop the tutors. I have eight counters main, and after sideboard I have ten that can counter Burning Wish, (Blue Blasts) and nine that can counter Mystical Tutor (Extirpate). I'd rather not take my chances and name a card they might not have in hand and not necessarily need to win instead of naming their win-condition.
- I feel naming Ad Nauseum is unnecessary, since and early Meddling Mage and just a single Mishra's Factory can weaken it tremendously. This plus counter-magic and Wastelands can put them under a lot of pressure and force them to go off before they want to. Also, since Mage attacking weakens ADN it decreases the chances of them drawing enough cards to make Grapeshot lethal.
I don't think game one is very good against TES, but if you mulligan aggressively games two and three it's very winnable.
Updated list:
Code:// Lands
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [GUR] Island
3 [GUR] Plains
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Spells
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Wrath of God
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FNM] Counterspell
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
Only 2 black producing lands and only 2 ways to fetch them? What about 3-2-1 strand/flats/delta? Less randomness.
I'm using 3-2-1 at least and I run 2 black duals and a basic swamp.
Are you aware that Strand gets Sea and Scrubland? I agree on Moss' colored manabase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
Moss, did you test with 3 Elspeths? You should try it, so far it has been great for me. (I run 3 Elspeth and 1 Decree, netto gaining 1 slot).
Since Elspeth rarely(read:never) dies, is three really necessary?
I only have 2 signed-simchin, please donīt go up to three :D
I have been good with running 2. Not sure what the new Hexmage will do to Planeswalkers (and other related counter-based permanents) though.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
I won't be worried about that 'till Zoo stops being played. Hexmage requires a very devoted black manabase and aggro-control shell, which means a bye for zoo every time it gets played. Goblins is getting a power boost, so Zoo will gain popularity in order to combat it. Black disruption.dec loses to both of these options, and even the next deck in the cycle (combo gaining popularity to combat aggro) isn't an easy matchup for decks like that. if it does, run a list with 4x spell snare and maybe divert in the SB. Alongside SDT, this deck is brutal against black aggro-control. We might lose one or two elspeths in the random match we should win anyway, but I really don't see it being a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
Still, I'll never change the 2/2 els./DoJ split. It's been too consistantly amazing.
Of course :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
Guess I got a bit confused by the lack of a basic swamp there even though I even noted it :rolleyes:
Yes I tested 3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I am choosing to run he 3rd Decree of Justice for a multitude of reasons. Not only is it superior to virtually every other card in the mirror (outside of direct hate IE: Telemin's performance, which I obviously wouldn't do under the current metagame.) While I agree that the 3rd Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a good choice I think a variety of match ups come down to using Decree in the mid-game.
As far as my Land is concerned this is probobly the most refined and safe I've fealt in a long time. After testing Marsh Flats and picking up a copy IRL I feel like if your not running equal portions with Delta you should consider it in white heavy versions.
Most recent list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
From all the 2-colour stuff ive seen so far this semms like the most solid.
Whats the reason for no Eternal Dragon, you just don't like him or is it something more in-depht?
Did you ever feel like you have too much counter?
8 Hardcounter + 4 Balance seem a lot to me, I didn't test (I guess you did) but at first glance I'd cut 1 or two counterspells for something else.
The list seems to be really straightforward, I actually like it, but did you miss some tech cards at some point?
€dit:
1 more question:
I have no experience with the MU, how does this deck against Dragon Stompy and Chalice Aggro?
Pray to draw your 2 of O Ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
Speaking from a dragon stompy player's angle, the matchup is probably slightly in your favor. The more colors you play, the worse it gets (obv). Just remember that our primary goal is to moon your face.
The real threats in this MU are the Chalices. When you play seven basic lands you don't need to care about Bloodmoon (sometimes you have to counter the Magus because you cannot block him with a factory). And even if they can resolve a Chalice at 1 they need to play a beater quickly too (which they can't do consistently because the deck ist inconsistent as hell). But you can use your Wrath for one creature and still gain some cardadvantage. After a few turns they don't have any cards in their hand and when you reach this point it is hard to loose. I played this MU a dozen times before Elspeth were tournament legal and she mades the MU even better. Even if Hanni's version plays no Engineered Explosives which are very good against Dragonstompy (kill their moxen and Chalices) I think it's a better MU for you than for the DS-player.
I can't imagine how they could beat you without Chalice 1. And they don't play any carddraw to find their Chalices.
Just so everybody knows, Dragon Stompy tends to win if it has an ultra-explosive opening, otherwise it just loses. If it doesnt fuck you over or present efficient problems to you in the first 2-3 Turns, Dragon Stompy just loses. Also, in order for DS is able to do this is fan open a good grip or mull into oblivion. Giving Landstill 1-2 Turns is awful, because they'll get enough cards to wail on you. Also, now that Landstill is running Spell Snare, if they're on the Play, you're extra screwed when you play Chalice. If you play anything else, they can probably find ways to work around it. Also, your match up here gets better with Moon effects if they dont run Eternal Dragon. Just remember that the best openings for this deck is def Blood Moon or something bat shit insane.
To sum up: You rarely will loose more than 1 game (due to nutzdraw) per match. On top of that, DS is merely played => Absolutely no reason to be afraid:smile:
Why are we talking about dragon stompy?
Let's continue on with matchups that are actually relivent to the meta-game at hand. Heck i'd even settle for a question on testing against dream halls. :)
Anyways after some extensive testing and My team-mate Gustah:
sb:
-2 Relic
-1 Path
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Blue Elemental blast
So the side should look like this
1 Pulse
1 Path
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crucible of worlds
4 Counterbalance
4 Engineered Plague
No GY hate at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Is Ray of Distortion really that effective?
No GY hate, you're right.
We wanted to follow Hanni's and Citrus-God's suggestion that GY hate is really not needed when you have the combination of the cb top engine, 6 to 8 stp effects, and possibily some meddling mage :tongue:
@ray of distortion: is always good to have a disenchant effect ready-to-use. Evades cb? Check. Reusable? Check. Don't think it needs more explanations. Not running wish nor vindicate in the list below, I prefer a d. blow MD.
Here's what I'm going to play sunday. Don't blame me, I've been busy with exams and I've got 0 or near testing, I just wanted to go straight UW-x control. I post the entire list only to look at the sideboard (some choices are not auto-explanatory), just because it is more or less a wish version without wish and wishboard (and so some considerations on the sb are close to those of moss). Let's jump to the sb:
// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Spells
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [4E] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 jace: maybe it's just overkill against dreadstill and landstill (3 elspeth 2 jace md, 1 crucible 4 counterbalance sb, + mage in the mirror match). Don't really know.
2 path: having a total of 8 stp effects post-sb amuses me!
4 counterbalance: want to try this out (@Hanni/Citrus/Wasteland: I put down some considerations on the MU's I bring cb in but I feel I need more insights. Any other considerations on this topic would be appreciated, feel free to PM me :smile: ). 4 is the right number, even in the mirror match (the more snareable things, the more probability to resolve at least one of them).
3 Engineered plague: I can consider the 4th, but 8 stp + 2 humility +3 EE should be enough, considering that snare is quite good against merfolks, and will probably become good against goblins due to insitigator costing 2. 3 is fine atm.
4 Meddling mage: good to pair with cb in lots of Mu, from combo to burn to the mirror, to ichorid, to aggroloam, to stax...Welcome back after long, MM.
1 Crucible: again, not sure on this, I just feel it's more a dead card than not.
I certainly miss vindicate, but I think i'll have no time to complain in straight 8 swiss rounds (I hope!) :smile:
What you name against loam and in mirror? Against loam if we get countertop online, and 2cc top of deck that is almost gg. Do we name Burning wish or Lftl if we don't have countertop going?Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
It obviously depend on the game situation. Against the mirror we can name crucible, elspeth or wincons (assumed we have already them in play), EE or other ways they have to get rid of a resolved counterbalance. Much more useful to stall o steal a counter, though. Against Loam it buys some time to get countertop online. I name seismic assault, krosan grip or worm harvest if they had the time to wish for it, sometimes maesltrom pulse. The rest should be managed by countertop and stp. Loam only if I don't see countertop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
Thanks for clarification. Do you side out standstills in mirror or leave some in? Just thought if you side in 4x MM and crucible(?), do you side out wraths and standstill or couple?Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Makes good sense. Thanks for clearing things up, gustha. I figured Ray was for that, but whether it was practical for the :4::w::w: cost was more or less my question, haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Your sideboard doesnt need Meddling Mages. I think you should replace the MMs with better cards that combat other match ups. Perhaps Negate? Negate would hypothetically do a lot more against decks like Aggro Loam or Landstill, compared to that of MM.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
I also suggest you run Wastelands in the maindeck, in place of a Factory, Bowl and a Dismantling Blow. Definitely an underrated card. Especially in the mirror and against Dreadstill. I think that this card is what helps you most under Standstill. Also, against Merfolk, this is the card that keeps you alive in the midgame when Mutavaults start getting nutty.
I also question Humilities and Disks too... Like, chances are, you will board these cards out often. Why not bring WoG back? You will definitely keep them in maindeck more often than not. How about
-2 Humility
-1 Disk
-1 EE
+2 WoG
+2 Vindicate
Two Jace is more than enough. Against Dreadstill and Landstill, you're better off running other cards, like say, more CoWs.... however, CoWs are only good if you run maindeck Wastelands.Quote:
1 jace: maybe it's just overkill against dreadstill and landstill (3 elspeth 2 jace md, 1 crucible 4 counterbalance sb, + mage in the mirror match). Don't really know.
4Dropping these bad boys in the mirror is brutal. You have no idea how butt hurt the opponent gets trying to remove these. Casting EE is slightly harder for them is harder too.Quote:
counterbalance: want to try this out (@Hanni/Citrus/Wasteland: I put down some considerations on the MU's I bring cb in but I feel I need more insights. Any other considerations on this topic would be appreciated, feel free to PM me :smile: ). 4 is the right number, even in the mirror match (the more snareable things, the more probability to resolve at least one of them).
You know, now that I think about it, with Counterbalance, Runed Halo is a lot better than MM in almost all scenarios against those decks you want to work on. Runed Halos keep you protected from Therapies and Ichorids, keeps you protected from Vores and keeps you protected from PoP and other Zoo goodies. Also, you can board Halos in against Tempo Thresh.Quote:
4 Meddling mage: good to pair with cb in lots of Mu, from combo to burn to the mirror, to ichorid, to aggroloam, to stax...Welcome back after long, MM.
Yes, and no. CoWs are really good against Merfolk (if you run Wasteland and they run mana denial).Quote:
1 Crucible: again, not sure on this, I just feel it's more a dead card than not.
I've been playing runed halo instead of cop:red since its too narrow and runed halo has helped me considerably against my sligh and tempo thresh matchup. Do you guys think there's anything i should tweak in my sb to make our more difficult matchups stronger?
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nevinyrral’s Disk
3 Standstill
3 Vindicate
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Decree of Justice
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 negate
3 path to exile
2 Blue elemental blast
2 spell snare
2 runed halo
To whoever I said I run into problems against Chalice @ 1:
I run 12 1cc spells. That's not a little bit. Against the decks that run Chalice, 1cc spells rarely matter. Dragon Stompy is a solid matchup.
Postboard, 4 Oblivion Rings easily answer what they need to answer.
Honestly, Counterbalance has a use in just about every matchup. Some matchups it has less uses (like Goblins), but it's never a dead card. That's why I play CounterTop maindeck.Quote:
4 counterbalance: want to try this out (@Hanni/Citrus/Wasteland: I put down some considerations on the MU's I bring cb in but I feel I need more insights. Any other considerations on this topic would be appreciated, feel free to PM me ). 4 is the right number, even in the mirror match (the more snareable things, the more probability to resolve at least one of them).
However, as far as the matchups it's best against:
Goyf Sligh
Burn
Combo (almost all forms)
Zoo
Aggro Loam
Threshold variants
Mirror
Control variants
Plenty more, but those are some basics. Like I said, it's never dead against anything, highly effective against most decks, mediocre against a few, and bad against... nothing?
If you want more info about it, just PM me. I'd love to help you playtest so you can understand why I believe Counterbalance maindeck is beyond amazing.
Meddling Mage is a great sideboard card. It answers alot of different shit and provides a 2cc 2/2 clock. It's blue so it pitches to FoW and maintains the 2cc curve for Counterbalance. Why do you think Meddling Mage isn't needed?Quote:
Your sideboard doesnt need Meddling Mages.
Countertop > Runed Halo. CounterTop > CoP: Red. Seriously.Quote:
I've been playing runed halo instead of cop:red since its too narrow and runed halo has helped me considerably against my sligh and tempo thresh matchup. Do you guys think there's anything i should tweak in my sb to make our more difficult matchups stronger?
"You know, now that I think about it, with Counterbalance, Runed Halo is a lot better than MM in almost all scenarios against those decks you want to work on. Runed Halos keep you protected from Therapies and Ichorids, keeps you protected from Vores and keeps you protected from PoP and other Zoo goodies. Also, you can board Halos in against Tempo Thresh."
Why do you think so? Now that we can finally protect him and therefor arenīt forced to first name the removalspell, why is halo better NOW?
I hate how this thread has degraded from healthy discussion to people trying to prove their deck is the best :(
Without any intention of flame (seriously), but sincerely, I think what degrades threads in advanced sections are mono-line posts with nothing to say about the discussions that are already running, or have something new to point out.
That said, I think no one wants to use the thread as a way to prove its version of landstill is the best: those who are already famous or skilled pilots/deckbuilders don't give a shit about more credit (and are happy if no one at tournaments plays their same list, if that's so strong); those who are not are just trying to improve. As far as Hanni or counterbalance landstill is concerned (I intended that your critic was headed to that), I don't think he's trying to prove his list is far superior to everybody's, he's just trying to answer the critics that has been moved towards his approach, and he is completely justified to do it, even more as he doesn't seem to do it in an arrogant way.
As for counterbalance, it's not the first time I pay it in the sb, but last time I tested it (4 cb +3 mm +2 halo) was not at all satisfied, but maybe there was an overall problem of deckbuilding (that was before path to exile being printed). I have always considered it a sb card and, while I see that hanni's approach have some good points to spend, I still think EE is the best removal suite I can use (EE conflicts with cb, I prefer md EE, so follows sb cb). After the tournamente I'd surely have some testing with md cb, and I'm waiting for the primer :tongue: Cb top is one of the strongest control suits in legacy, and I don't see a reason to inhibit its accesibility to one of the best control decks in legacy (which, incidentally, is able to generate CA on its own which is instead the weak point of decks like, e.g., dreadstill).
As far as it concerns runed halo, I express the same doubts as NQN and Hanni. I think MM is better than halo in this sb, just because counterbalance is good at protecting MM from removals, so it provides him a longer life than usual. Sure, Halo protects me from progenitus (as far as I can save halo from grip, ofc), and ichorids, while mage can chant therapies as well and stp's deal with ichorid. I don't know if tomorrow i'm going to play the 4/3/2 split again, it seems to me that the runed halo slot is pretty much covered by MM on one hand, and path to exile on the other. Still the room of jace to fill...
It's not blue to pitch to Force of Will, and it's not a 2/2 to provide a clock. That's why Meddling Mage is a better option, IMO.Quote:
"You know, now that I think about it, with Counterbalance, Runed Halo is a lot better than MM in almost all scenarios against those decks you want to work on.
Meddling Mage vs Ichorid names Cabal Therapy first and foremost, thenDread Return, to keep them off of sac outlets. 8 StP effects keep them off of Imps, so they have 0 sac outlets. Then, you start hitting Ichorid's, so they have no beats, and no sac outlets. Then, Narcomoeba's are a 1/1 flyer, which are easily raced by Elspeth and/or 2/2 beats.
I'm not trying to prove a damn thing. If people don't like the hard work I put in to making Counterbalance work in Landstill, and making it a beast, then do what you do. If you do actually get around to testing the decklist I posted (U/W Counterbalace Landstill), then maybe you'd understand why I'm so adamant about it. I truly believe that U/W Counterbalance Landstill is the best deck in the format.Quote:
I hate how this thread has degraded from healthy discussion to people trying to prove their deck is the best :(
@ Gustha
I very much appreciate the kind words you have for me. When I first started posting my radical idea, I was black sheeped by the majority of the Landstill community. Now, people are starting to come around, an are slowly accepting it by adding it to their sideboards. I project that it will be maindecked by a large majority within the next 6 months. It just takes time for these kind of radical ideas to actually become reality.
Allright, Iīll give them a try in my SB and tell you what I`m thinking ab out them. Until now, Im everything but convinced, but maybe...
If I'd play C/B Landstill, I would consider running a maindeck mini tutorboard with 2-3 enlightened tutors.
You can grab top for cc1, standstill for cc2, crucible/o-ring for cc3, moat/humility for cc4, and future sight for cc5 (is nuts with top). Makes C/B worthwhile even if you don't have a top out yet.
And as you start running that and C/B, Predict becomes no worse than Standstill itself. If you drop Standstill, then its logical to drop Mishra's aswell, lower land count somewhat and play it like U/W Countertop Elspeth Control.
P.S. Just pondering, it is not by any means tested, although I've seen Enlightened Tutor + C/B + Landstill shell on deckcheck somewhere and PV & Zwi played that as well.
hey guys, what would you consider to be landstill's most difficult matchups? apart from dredge