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I'm not sure what Miracles decks you've been playing or which pilots you follow but Shardless and Eldrazi are def not unfavorable for Miracles, though Eldrazi might be a little ahead. Shardless is absolutely unfavored against Miracles and has been for awhile now.
Maybe Shardless has become softer to Miracles.
Are you actually claiming that Miracles is 50/50 or better vs every tier one deck, or are you just nit-picking?
Some poeple might tell you Miracles is slightly unfavourable vs D&D and/or Lands. Depending on the build, they'd be right.
What I'm arguing is that Miracles has MUs vs tier one decks which are worse than 50/50.
Everyone has their MB and SB targeted at Miracles as the clear top dog of the format and yet no one of the other DtB is able to claim Miracles as their favorable matchups.
That fact should ring some bells
First, Miracles has been a problem for, depending on when exactly you think it became a problem, between 6 months and 2 years (either from the release of Treasure Cruise or GP Columbus) any point before Cruise is almost indefensible if you look at the data.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Let's not forget that I'm broadly in agreement with you here. Something really should be done about Miracles, I'm just of the opinion that it should be nerfed rather than killed in the interest of preserving strategic diversity. Where I disagree with you (and, it seems, Megadeus) is that I don't think Miracles is what's driving other control decks out of the format - most Landstill variants have great Miracles matchups - it's that the answers other control decks have can't cover the range of threats the format presents.
This is total nonsense. My win rate with Shardless has gone up perceptibly (~5-10%) since people started switching to Mentor.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
I think Miracles used to be worse against Shardless and Eldrazi, but the inclusion of Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Moat* has tipped the balance. That's my biggest issue with the deck: its shell is so flexible that it can adapt to whatever the field's doing and still come out on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
*Disclaimer: I have no idea if this is true for Shardless, but it's certainly whacked Eldrazi and other Chalice decks.
Predict helps.
Also the MU was never that positive for Shardless in my experience. It had the hands that overwhelmed miracles but Miracles can grind the game out well and the deck has several bombs built into the deck (Mentor, Jace, and Entreat) that are pretty good against shardless
As for other control decks existing, the big problem is why would I play a non-miracles control deck? Miracles can handle most anything and does it better than most any other control deck.
The Predict/Entreat builds are by far the scariest from my testing. I agree that the matchup was never a blowout; I don't think it was ever much better than 55/45. The Predict/Entreat builds seem to be about even with Shardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
Thank you.Quote:
As for other control decks existing, the big problem is why would I play a non-miracles control deck? Miracles can handle most anything and does it better than most any other control deck.
Again, I have no idea who other people play against or what builds they're using, but the Predict version makes Shardless feel pretty comfortable. It's a grind, but Miracles will easily outgrind that match up now.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I agree with this. Basically any time I see a control deck I think, is this better than miracles? And it's always no. Sure landstill is favored against miracles themselves, but they are much worse against much of the field. And yes I understand that pure aggro was pushed out before miracles, but miracles existing keeps it from ever even attempting a comeback. Terminus is the problem card other than the obvious Brainstorm. It gives miracles that catch all creature sweeper that is cheap and instant speed, and due to the nature of the card also forces you into the miracles shell. If there was reason to believe that maybe on a given day that EE, or pyroclasm, or supreme verdict were the best sweeper to play you could consider different control shells, but when you play those cards and you're essentially wrong because they aren't terminus, that's when it's an issue to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
We have been on this treadmill before. Start from this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I forgot about blade decks. When was the last time a blue blade deck was a DTB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
August last year.
This is not a valid argument. There's clearly a place in a varied metagame for an archetype that beats the Tier 1 and loses to enough Tier 2+ strategies to stay near 55-45 overall. You can't seriously be arguing that every Tier 1 deck must have an abysmal matchup with some other Tier 1 deck despite perfect play, otherwise it deserves a ban?Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I can see the logic behind the "ban Top because it makes long tournaments miserable" argument. I can't see the logic behind the "ban top because it enables a control deck that isn't awful" argument. If you ban all the control decks you end up with a crap format like Modern where rounds either last 15 minutes or 55 because the only viable archetypes are aggro-combo and prison.
When people stopped copying them off the internet and started copying Miracles off the internet instead. Maybe they could print control cards that were really good against Miracles and weren't awful against other internet decks, then people could sleeve them, and cast them. <looks to the sky for guidance>Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
It doesn't lose to Tier 1.5/2 strategies as this thread just mentioned when pointing to B2B and Bloodmoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meekrab
I can't see the logic behind both arguments. An inexperienced player will take a considerable amount of time spinning the top. However, you can always ask the player to play faster or call a judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meekrab
Is clear at this stage that SDT is not an incredibly overpowered card, otherwise it would be played in more than 2 archetypes - Miracles/Nic Fit. SDT is a card that rewards decision making at fast speed. Any player that is slow on big tournaments would end up in the drawing bracket facing other slow players, which would likely mean they are not going to do great anyway. There are plenty of players that love Miracles and playing full control in legacy. Do we really want to end up with a crap format like Modern by banning the good control stuff?
Also, its more than time we get Survival of the Fittest in the format back!! By the time the card was banned there was no Deathrite Shaman, no Rest in Peace and no Abrupt Decay...
Stop talking sense, this is the b/r thread. We have to be mean and condescending to each other for having even the slightest of difference in opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by warai
No, it would be simply nice to be able to combat these strategies with sideboard cards which do not get conceptionally fucked over by the enemy deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Trying to dodge Chalice by running 2cc/3cc removal, if Chalice is ran alongside Wasteland and Thorn, is as successful as battling Belcher with Sanctum Prelate.
Dont have me quote the Judge from Julians article on the matterQuote:
Originally Posted by warai
I am going to guess you have not played against Painter then. Also Doomsday and Storm run it. Doomsday all the time, Storm off and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by warai
The thing about Top is how synergistic it is with a whole bunch of other cards. If your argument that Top on its own is not a problem, then as someone who spent over a year on Painter, I agree. If your argument is that Top in Miracles is not a problem, I disagree.
Top with the Miracle mechanic, Counterbalance and Fetches is a real time sink. Watching someone with a set of three or more open Fetches try and abuse Counterbalance is not quick. Watching someone spin to counter a spell, spin again to counter another and then spin again to draw eats up time.
Top is an engine in Miracles, not just a card selection tool. That's why it's so promptly positioned in that deck. The reason it sees less play elsewhere is due to the decks being built in different ways that let them abuse other cards. For example, Elves would not play Top, it has a plan of tutor and draw, not selection. It will seek raw card advantage. Lands does the same. Delver is often Tempo based, choosing to run one mana cantrips over a repeatable two mana one.
Also, might be wrong, but doesn't Landstill play Top sometimes too?
While we are at it, can we have Yawgmoths Will? It SURE is now fair with DRS, RIP and Flusterstorm /sQuote:
Originally Posted by warai