My list is below in my sig, I play the discardless MD as well. Essentially, your deck is already very well set up for the miracles matchup- resist the urge to over sideboard. I usually do:
- -3 Liliana
- +1 Golgari Charm
- +1 Null Rod
- +1 Pithing Needle
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My list is below in my sig, I play the discardless MD as well. Essentially, your deck is already very well set up for the miracles matchup- resist the urge to over sideboard. I usually do:
- -3 Liliana
- +1 Golgari Charm
- +1 Null Rod
- +1 Pithing Needle
I also cut both deluges and a DRS for needle/rod and 4 discard. If you want -1/-1 effects (vs legends-miracles etc) then NoSB is better I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeff
EDIT: But of course, always adapt.
Why do people bring in Golgari Charm? I'm not a fan of it in the 75 anyway as it's a reactive card, not something you want when playing Shardless Agent. It's not an answer to CB and the regen mode is almost irrelevant. I guess it kills Cliques/Snaps? As LarsLeif says, NosB does that better.
Spot on SBing advice from Mr Leif too, listen to him!
As he says, games will go long, FoW is very important for the late game to stop a Jace or Entreat. Good reasoning for why Liliana isn't as good as people think either, getting caught by an Entreat with your pants down is GG. A good approach for the matchup I find is basically 'connecting the dots'. Decay answers CB (if they leave them in)/RiP, needle/rod answers SDT, not overextending 'answers' Terminus (it's quite easy to play through all four in long games, just be patient). But these cards do require an answer though so don't burn Brainstorms early to curve out.
This is all good advice for the Miracles matchup. Exactly how good/bad Liliana is depends a lot on how you're both configured, with Liliana tending to get worse the more creatures they're running postboard because they all either have Flash (Clique, Snapcaster, Venser) or make extra bodies to sac (Mentor). With the Stoneforge version of Miracles basically dead Liliana usually doesn't pull her weight unless they're on the Reid Duke creatureless version. While her ultimate is great, the other two abilities are only ok, and ticking her up is usually so slow that it ultimately becomes not worth it - you have too many cards that are worth more than +1 loyalty in the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
As for Golgari Charm, I don't think it's a reactive card at all and while it's no substitute for NoSB, it is useful as a bridge to NoSB in matchups where the gap between 2 and 4 mana can be yawning like Elves, D&T, and Infect. Even when it's just an untargeted Doom Blade in those matchups it often pulls its weight by taking out something like Mother of Runes or Inkmoth Nexus that can't be Abrupt Decayed. The fact that it has a Demystify mode is relevant against Show and Tell decks both because it destroys Sneak Attack and serves as a hedge against Leyline of Sanctity. I'm not a huge fan of it against Miracles unless you expect them to be heavy on enchantments like Rest in Peace and Blood Moon postboard (which invariably means that they're leaving Counterbalance in) but running a copy in the board isn't crazy.
Keep the sideboard advice coming! I've been away from the deck for awhile, so I'm still in the process of tweaking my deck/sideboarding strategy to current trends. In other news, two Shardless decks in the top 16 of Atlanta this past weekend:
- 12th - C. Mullins
- 16th - M. Mahaffer
Pretty standard stuff for the most part, although Mullins runs 4 Hymns MD along with 2 Thoughtseize, trimming some walkers, force, and a visions. I'm seeing this trend more and more- decks going down to a 2/1 Lili/Jace split and adding more discard main. I very much like the feel of the discardless main so I'll probably stick to that, but how do people feel about trimming down the walkers? 2 Jace has always felt good to me, it's a huge bomb if you can stick it in addition to a wincon. Lili I'm never unhappy to see, although it seems like it's losing a bit of its luster recently- maybe cutting it down to 2 would be okay for an additional Deluge, but that's probably pretty meta-dependent. It's still a house against combo and even delver, to an extent. Anyone have thoughts?
There are a lot of successful ways to play Shardless right now and I think most are represented in this thread, though I think you're moving in the direction of my list. The MD discard builds are clearly more popular in the US though I think you really don't lose that much against combo by cutting the discard, and tend to gain a lot against fair decks by having everything you draw play to the board in game 1.
This is the 75 I'm currently on:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ponder
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Disfigure
2 Leyline of the Void/Nihil Spellbomb - I go back and forth a lot on these
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Null Rod
The 2/2 Planeswalker split has treated me very well. Liliana isn't quite as good as she was when we could beat up on against Stoneforge Mystic decks frequently, but she still takes over games against Delver and in midrange mirrors while being a good top end against combo. I'm torn between the 23rd land and the second Strix - the mirror is popular enough here that I want the board-relevant 2-for-1, 22 feels a right on the land count. At the same time, I've considered cutting Strix entirely for the fourth Wasteland and either a second MD Deluge, a second Ponder, or another creature - Courser of Kruphix and TNN are a bit too slow for what they do, Clique is a bit too fragile, and I'd rather not run Angler or Tombstalker right now since having Goyf be big enough to eat Anglers is relevant. On the sideboard - I've alluded to being picky about what I can hit off of Cascades before, and that's the main factor behind the Leyline/Spellbomb uncertainty. If I could get a third graveyard hate slot I'd run 3 Leylines, but on 2 I increasingly want to have something that isn't middling when I topdeck it midgame and didn't have it in my opener. Leyline being bypassed by Agent is huge in a lot of matchups where you want both though, and likely wins out for that. Finally, I'm running Phyrexian Revoker in the slots where most people run Meddling Mage. I've tested Mage a bunch and keep coming back to finding it to be no better than Revoker in the grand scheme of things and Revoker doesn't make you run a white fetch in the main and spend a sideboard slot on a land. Mage is very slightly better against various forms of Storm combo since you aren't locked into naming LED, Petal, or Top but Revoker is much better against Sneak and Show because it forces them to go off either through Through the Breach or Show and Tell and both of those are easier to disrupt than Sneak Attack. I also bring Revoker in against Miracles, where it's consistently great. It's a creature, but unlike Meddling Mage it stops their whole engine rather than a single card that they haven't played yet. The one deck where I think Meddling Mage is much better than Revoker is Elves, but that has more to do with Revoker being easier for them to kill than Mage because they can GSZ for Reclamation Sage.
Hi Guys,
I found your sideboarding discussion against Miracles very interesting and would like to debate my SB-Plan, because I now think it could be better. This is the List I am currently running:
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Scrubland
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
Currently my boarding Plan against Miracles is (Let's assume they run something like 2 Mentors and 2-3 Snap, because this seems to be the most common Build):
- 2 Strix - 1 Wasteland - 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Hymn +1 Thief +1 Sylvan +1 Needle
I don't think Wasteland does very much at any point and I'm not in fear of getting screwed. The Strix is free Cardwise, but doesn't put much pressure on the board. The thoughtseize is debateble but often I found that they could just hide their high impact cards with BS and the rest is very redundant, so it doen't do much then. Now taking out Liliana is interesting, I found her to be good midgame, If you empty your Hand and this way try to empty theirs. But it is true that Top and a late Topdeck of Jace/Entreat is really bad then...
Whats your opinon on sideboeading here? Are Meddling mages interesting? It seems hard what to name though, Terminus would be my first guess, because then they have to kill it first before they sweep, but with StP, Snap, Blats it seems that it will likely die quick after boarding.
Doesn't revoker nonbo with night of souls betrayal and golgari charm pretty seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Also taking out a wasteland seems like it makes your manabase even worse at 21 lands... Am I wrong?
Elves is the only matchup where you definitely want both, and Night is all but game-ending there. You're fine with killing a Revoker to Wrath them and make most of their draws blanks. Night is ok against Miracles, but it's pretty narrow and Revoker turning off Top is more important than killing X/1s.Quote:
Originally Posted by minyafriend
I'm considering cutting one Strix for the 4th Wasteland (which makes 23 Lands), not going to 2 Wastelands. 22 Lands have been fine though.Quote:
Originally Posted by minyafriend
Revoker is a fine card but I struggle to see how it's overall better than Mage. It is better in the miracle matchup yes, but it's not that exciting even there. Also, being worse against both Elves, lands and reanimator seems pretty rough. And finally it doesn't increase the blue-count like cutting Tarmos for mages does. I'm not convinced.
I am courios why you feel the need for a MD Ponder. I like Sylvan sure but why Ponder, it is another bad flip from a blind shardless and it is not like BS where you can put back cards from your Hand to cascade into.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Plus your list seems like you are pretty much conceding G1 against Storm. I see exactly 4 FoW as interaction game 1 and no good storm player should be stopped by that. I think even though we bring in a lot of hate it is tought to win 2 games in a row especially the one where we are on the play.
Sorry dude I was referencing morphberlins listQuote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I've been finding that night of souls betrayal has been very good against miracles. Mentor can just win the game very very quickly and it is one of their only win cons (and there's a couple in the deck) so negating that seems pretty important. A good miracle player is probably not going to play a mentor without a way to get some sort of value immediately from it so even if you're able to abrupt decay it theyll probably leave a prowessing 1/1 behind... This week I've been having better success against miracles thanks to yalls advice. Take it slow grind them down one creature at a time, prepare your agents make sure you're getting as many two for ones as possible. I've been playing it super safe around successfully sticking pithing needle/ null rod/ NoS'B and saving forces also for entreat and jace. The match up is alot better for me now thanks. One thing I'm worried about is in person the games can go so long what are some tactics to play faster so you don't get a draw? Online I'm usually faster but its a chess clock so it doesn't matter...Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
These are both cribbing the Accart/Polzl maindeck and the merits of going to 0 discard MD have been discussed at length in this thread. I don't think it moves the needle appreciably in either case, and was against cutting the discard until I tested it myself. You're absolutely conceding game 1 to most combo decks, but it's not like you had this fantastic game 1 plan unless you were packing a lot of discard, and that weakens you more against fair decks than it strengthens you against unfair ones. Conversely, going to more generically good cards game 1 means that your fair matchups - which make up the majority of matches you're going to play in most events - are stronger since your Cascades are going to generate value no matter what in most cases. The worst blind hit is Decay when your opponent has no legal targets for it, and if your opponent has no legal Decay targets and they're playing a fair deck, you're probably winning. Ponder is a card that Lejay has argued is needed in 22 land lists like his. I think it definitely helps those lists get mana screwed less often but that it isn't necessary, but what ultimately pushed me to include Ponder is that I wanted another Sorcery in the deck that could be cast early so I could be sure my Goyfs were always maximum size. It was almost Thoughtseize, but I cut Dimir Charm to free up the slot so I wanted to keep the blue count unchanged for Force of Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Blue count isn't something I'm terribly concerned with - I have 21 blue spells preboard and 1-2 come out; if I were concerned about it I'd go for Clique rather than add Meddling Mage. Revoker works as a reasonable mana denial piece against Lands, but I'll admit to basically conceding that matchup. From my testing it's still a wretched matchup even with Meddling Mage (which is admittedly the best card against them), so going from 35/65 to 40/60 dogs doesn't convince me at all. As for Storm and Elves - GSZ for Rec. Sage is the only thing that makes Revoker worse than Meddling Mage in the matchup, and you're priced in to stopping most GSZs anyway assuming the first Mage is on Natural Order. The increasing number of people I see cutting to 2 Meddling Mage in the board suggests that at least some of them share my concern that dedicating a third of the sideboard just to combo, including running only 14 actual SB cards, is a real cost. And having MD cards that explicitly divulge your sideboard plan has small costs both to your manabase and in how your opponent will board against you. I haven't found Meddling Mage to be particularly effective against Reanimator, especially the lists that incorporate MD Izzet Charms on top of their SB Decays. They're already slowing down to fight DRS postboard, and while Revoker isn't particularly good, additional graveyard hate and Duresses or Cliques are better than Meddling Mage. Against Storm, Mage's abillty to name Tendrils rather than Petal or LED is, in my experience, not worth as much as simply having more cards to bring in against them. Revoker naming LED hurts both Past in Flames lines as well as natural Storm lines by reducing the effective number of tutors in their deck and their ability to float mana through their big spells and again, more is more in this matchup. In an amusing addendum, I recently beat a storm player who had simply assumed that I'd be on Meddling Mage and brought in Massacre to answer them, and then ended up with a 4 mana sorcery in his hand that didn't do anything. Ultimately though, I've convinced myself through testing that Revokers pull their weight over the Mages. Revoker is a little less powerful, but the full cost-benefit tradeoff for Revoker is more favorable than it is for Mage in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsLeif
NoSB is really good against them if they're on the most common configuration, which is 2/2/2 Mentor/Snap/Clique postboard and 0-1 Entreats. Maybe it's just me, but I haven't found that version to be extremely threatening. I'm usually fine slogging through Mentor + a few tokens so long as they don't have access to their Tops, though I usually swap Night in for Deluge against them. If this is alluding to the unfavorable interaction between Revoker and NoSB, that's true, but in comparing deck construction I'm essentially free rolling the Revokers in the matchup and am fine killing one to shut down their offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by minyafriend
so talking to a miracles player today who was on mentor, venser, clique miracles was under the impression that liliana was really good against him because he didnt have many ways to deal with lili and thought that the ultimate was really backbreaking against them. he thought it was wrong to side her out. ive heard other pros say liliana is good against miracles but am starting to really wonder! i have been siding +null rod +pithing needle +night of souls betrayal and +duress -2 liliana -baleful strix -1 tarmogoyf does this make sense to everyone? would it make less sense to keep lili and say side, null needle NoSB duress and take out strix -3 goyf?
hi,
how do you guys beat Sneak Show?
I mean seriously, I play 3 FoW and 6 Main Discard Spells (3Hymn, 3 Thoughtseize). Preboard as well as postboard it just feels utterly bad. Preboard no need to say its tough and Postboard the Discard does close to nothing, they either have leyline or Misdirection, which feels especially great when you try to hymn them. The Force of Will competes with their Forces, Spell Pierces, Pyroblasts.... more or less senseless. Any suggestions?
PS: I dont run meddling mage, but anyway meddling mage feels bad against them too because they have too many options how they can go off + pyroblast to get rid of it EoT.
What's in your sideboard?Quote:
Originally Posted by janchu88
pretty much average stuff,Quote:
Originally Posted by minyafriend
Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction, Grafdiggers Cage, NoSB, Disfigure, the 4th FoW and so on.... nothing that really shines in this matchup. Still tinkering with the SB - I bring in Pithing Needle, 4th FoW and Surgical - in Case my discard should ever hit. But still no way.
I was wondering what do you guys think of jace vryns prodigy in the maindeck. I have been considering cutting one ancestral vision and was thinking on him as a replacement.