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Sure, but Goyf requires no setup but you're playing Scours to support Angler.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMonster
I've not played the Scour version myself yet though, so I'm speaking with no experience. I just don't like the idea of cantrips that are drawing a random card. I will agree that Angler is situationally a lot better than goyf, I'm just not keen on the setup costs.
I liken Thought Scour to Gitaxian Probe. They each draw a random card and serve a function in their respective builds: Scour both fuels Angler and removes chaff from the top of the deck after Brainstorms, Delver checks, etc.; Probe fuels Pyromancer/Cabal Therapy and provides information at the expense of two life. It's not an exact parallel, of course, but they're similar. Successful Pyro lists run 3-4 Probes, so I don't necessarily see the harm in running 2-3 Scours if the Angler-over-Goyf payoff is worth it. That's what I'm still deciding on. Running Goyf allows you to play 2-3 extra spells instead of the Scours - seems like Stifle is the popular choice, and that sounds good. Given that Angler and Goyf each suck against Swords, maybe it comes down to how many Abrupt Decays one sees in his/her meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I agree that Scour is too high a cost to pay just to support (more) Anglers, but I don't know if a vanilla 4/5 is enough given the prevalence of both Eldrazi and opposing Anglers. If you're going to commit to making your Tarmogoyfs 5/6s, I think it's the better choice as it plays much better alongside the Stifle/Pierce plan. I don't think you need Thought Scour for the first three Anglers; playing the game should be enough as long as you aren't being too reactive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
4/5 Goyf is enough in the most scenarios. Grixis is such a good MatchUp for Delver with Goyf and Decay. You need just 2 answers post-board for the Angler. i play a Murderous Cut and an Edict in the Board for this. The same with the 5/5 Eldrazi. Or you can add Baleful Strixes aswell. They will block an Angler and grow your Goyf to 5/6
Ideally I'd love to eschew Thought Scour while still having a big enough graveyard for Anglers. The 5/5 body has been excellent in my testing against Eldrazi. Being able to consistently stymie Thought-Knot Seer and always trade with Smasher is big game. And (often) costing one mana and not being susceptible to Decay are big pluses, too, of course. The Pyro lists run 3-4 Gitaxian Probe alongside 2 Anglers, so logic would dictate that I'd need more than that to support a third (though I'd prefer to run a more impactful spell than Probe - maybe a couple Thoughtseize?). At least I wouldn't have Therapies that must stay in the graveyard, so that's more food for Angler. Gotta test a little more and see what I can get away with.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
And 5/6 Goyfs are tough to achieve, in my experience. When I played the Goyf/Stifle list a few weeks ago, for example, I noticed that the only maindeck sorceries were Ponders. How do we best beef up Goyf, then? Do we take a page out of Modern Jund Delirium's book and run, say, a Seal of Fire/Tarfire? Baleful Strix doesn't really jibe with the deck's game plan, so that doesn't seem good.
It depends on exactly how you're set up. Thoughtseize is a pretty reasonable card, and I don't mind Preordain, Forked Bolt, or Probe for more Sorceries. Because getting Goyf to 5/6 is only critical in creature matchups, the options you listed are all solid, as is Dead Weight if you're heavier black. Seal of Primordium is ok against Eldrazi to deal with Jittes and Chalice, though Seal of Doom is probably too slow to matter most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMonster
Hey guys. I want to discuss BUGoose, which is halfway between RUG and bUrg. I am very tempted to include red for Bolts, I got stuck a couple times in a tournament last week and felt that Decay was often better than Bolt, D&T being the glaring exception. I have success with Jim Davis' BUG Stifle, I wanted to slim down a bit, as Confidant and Goyf can often be clunky when holding up a U for Stifle/Pierce or to fake it. The only two sorcery speed 2CMC cards are a Winter Orb and Null Rod in the SB.
A podcast outlined "Miracle Killer" BUG Goose. Paul Michel T8'd the Baltimore Classic after the podcast was released: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/pod...slayer-delver/ The original list is there. I tweaked it a bit for my meta. D&T and Lands are my toughest matchups. Pithing Needle does a lot of work in both, in addition to Miracles and some others. I am big on Needle, I may be overvaluing it, but it's done work for me. The 0's are considerations.
Thoughts on the value of slimming down to Goose > Goyf and leaving the Bolts at home?
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendilion Clique
0 True-Name Nemesis
0 Tarmogoyf
0 Gurmag Angler
0 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
SB
2 Disfigure
1 Go for the Throat
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
3 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
0 Painful Truths
0 Darkblast
0 True-Name Nemesis
0 Sylvan Library
0 Baleful Strix
Hey guys,
went in 1st place with 5:1 at a 36 man turney today in Austria. Sadly I lost my first Top 8 Match and went in 5th place after Top 8.
Played the list from the last page just changed -1 Surgical + 1 Grafdigger's Cage in the SB.
Round 1: UB Faerys Won 2:0
Round 2: Burn Won 2:1
Round 3: Chalice Affinity Won 2:0
Round 4: Pod NicFit Lost 1:2
Round 5: Grixis Delver Won 2:1
Round 6: BUG Goodstuff/Midrange Won 2:1
Top 8 vs 4c Deathblade Lost 0:2 because of a poor mulligan to five with no lands & a close G2.
All in all the list performd well but Spell Pierce is still the weakest card in the MD especially if you dont face any combo deck, it was just good vs burn...
I had some problems vs zombie fish in the Grixis & BUG MU who outclased my 4/5 goyfs. Have to think about a solution for that, maybe a 1off Dismember in the MD, we will see.
The 2 Painful Truths from the SB were great! Brought me back a couple of times...
The 2 TNN felt also really good and closed many games, but I think zombie fishes would also have done they´re Job. I still prefer TNN over the fish just because of DnT & Miracles which I did not face the day.
Nicely done, but your meta looks janky. Mine is also...
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Jarvis took friedman's list to a top 8 at the last SCG: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/469545#online
Very close to the list in his article. I don't really see the reason to run four surgicals, tbh
Another user 5-0d a league with the same 75 as Jarvis. These beefy Delver decks seem to be doing well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
Has anyone piloted this list? Is 15 threats, five of them :3:+ drops, as clunky as it appears? Does Delver flip reliably with 26 spells? This configuration certainly seems powerful and resilient ... if you can cast the cards.
I agree, Jaytron, four Surgicals feels like overkill.
I'll give it a whirl this week if I don't play RUG for funsies.Quote:
Originally Posted by theMonster
I bet it'll feel slower but more powerful than other variants. TNN/SCM are slow cards.
I get that he wants 4 surgicals for lands, but I feel like there aren't many other MUs where you want THAT many. Unless you're brining some number in against somewhat unconventional MUs.
If you play 4 Surgical Extraction and 3 Snapcaster Mage, I feel like at some point you just eliminate any viable strategy a deck can use to win. Maybe that's not the intended use, but if you grab 12 cards out of their list, I am almost positive you are highly favored.
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i make 5-0 on mtgo league with this list of 4c delver..... http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13432&d=278829&f=LE
i think the right pick of 2 variable creatures are 2 TNN
Those 12 cards have to be highly relevant and irreplaceable for that to work, and that basically only happens against combo, where I'd much rather spend the slot(s) on additional countermagic or discard. Where other than Lands and Dredge would you even bring the fourth (and maybe even the third) copy in? I'd much rather have Invasive Surgery, Therapy, Thoughtseize, Flusterstorm, an additional Spell Pierce, or actual Counterspell even against Reanimator or a Storm variant. One or two Surgicals are fine, especially with Snapcaster Mage (though I'd supplement a 1-of Surgical with 1-2 additional pieces of graveyard hate). More than that and I think we're veering into running a lot of a very narrow effect on an axis where we already have 4 maindeck pieces of interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
No they don't, they only need to be important, not highly anything, and I would argue that in legacy, if it's in the deck, it's probably pretty important. Decay their goyfs and surgical it? Now nothing will contest your boardstate of Angler. Take their first fetch, take their Brainstorm.
Look, I think more Surgicals in a Snapcaster deck is better than fewer. 3 would probably be my number, but I can't really play this as 2 team members already do and we have to keep a little diversity. Also, overloading on specific hate is fine and even wise if you feel you only have a couple problem matchups in a known meta.
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This is a very old tactic, and it's been largely abandoned because it's ineffective. Do you really want to Shock and Duress yourself in a Delver mirror? How is Surgical any better an answer to Tarmogoyf than Dismember, Snuff Out, Submerge, or Decay? I guess it's kind of not absolute garbage against Miracles now that they've gone all in on Snapcaster Mage, but what else are you going to do with it even there? Surgical their second Terminus with the trigger on the stack? That seems way worse than Winter Orb, Painful Truths, Vendilion Clique, Pyroblast, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Flusterstorm, and Abrupt Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Overloading on hate if you expect a lot of opponents to be operating on a specific axis is fine, but wouldn't you rather overload with haymakers than things that are merely ok? Overloading on Surgicals for Lands + misc. graveyard decks is like running four Smelts when you expect lots of Tezzerator and Affinity.Quote:
Look, I think more Surgicals in a Snapcaster deck is better than fewer. 3 would probably be my number, but I can't really play this as 2 team members already do and we have to keep a little diversity. Also, overloading on specific hate is fine and even wise if you feel you only have a couple problem matchups in a known meta.
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It seems where we differ is where we believe Surgical's power level to be. I'm a very old player, coming up on decade number two in the game. Old doesn't mean bad. Also, how something seems and how something actually is are generally different things. That's why testing is important, and you can argue until you are blue in the face, but a 5-0 is a 5-0, and that's not really something you can really have an argument against. I feel like Surgical is a haymaker. I've never resolved one and said "well, that sucked." And perhaps you don't see it make a difference so maybe that's why you feel as you do.
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Have to agree here with BTM10. In my personal experience surgical is only good in the following Scenarios:
A. You face a combo deck like ANT, S&T etc...
B. You face a deck which works with the GY or has a GY dependant engine like Lands, 4c Loam, Punishing Jund, Dredge, Reanimator etc...
C. You face a delver deck which has only one source to produce a single color of mana like RUG Delver with 3 Trop/3 Volc so you can cut them off one color completley.
In all other fair MU´s it´s strictly wrong in my opinion to bring it in just because it doesn´t affect the board or disrupt your oponent unless you get super lucky and he holds 2 bolts or whatever in his hand.
I have a buddy who boarded in the surgicals vs me a couple of times (He was on blade me on 4c Delver) and the surgicals did NOTHING. He had the same arguement like you but at the end of the day I will just draw a other card instead of the surgicaled one...
But I will not try to convince you here from the oposite, this is just my experience from the last 11 years of legacy.
I totally agree the last Manipulatio thoughts.
Surgical imho is a great card, obj, i like to bring 1x in every deck I play, sometimes 2x, but the right uses are right in the scenarios write by Manipulatio.
I can add only a thought:
- vs RUG, Surgical is situational.
If the RUG player have put a clock and are in "defense mode", Surgical do nothing.
Surgical is better in the first turn vs RUG, but many times only a dead card in mid game, because RUG is THE Tempo deck and remove the green is good if he don't have creature for make a clock.
This is my experience.