FailQuote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Also, from what I understand, 4 groves is amazing as it turns off grip for the most part, and allows tutorage to a deck that sorely needs it sometimes.
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FailQuote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Also, from what I understand, 4 groves is amazing as it turns off grip for the most part, and allows tutorage to a deck that sorely needs it sometimes.
If your metagame is infested with Reanimator, play 4 maindeck Ground Seals and Lignifys with a set of Chrome Moxes to power them out ASAP. Otherwise, reworking the entire deck to deal with one situation presented by a tier two deck isn't interesting or useful. Now can we please just stop giving a damn about Iona? If they dump her face into play on turn two we probably lose. We also lose to ANT and Belcher, so it's one more underplayed deck that we can't beat, stop getting worked up about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otter
This.
It's weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
It's almost like there's an odd correlation between people playing boatloads of expensive secondary color enchantments in this deck, and the deck falling completely off the radar.
Huh.
What a weird coincidence.
freak - What a well thought out and constructive post.
Sevryn - If you had been paying attention, any list not lucky enough to have 1x O. Ring in their hand turn 2 loses when they name green. If anything, this is the problem that needs addressing.
I've been keeping my mouth shut so far, as I really don't agree with naming white with stuff like Iona, but I do agree with using cards such as Moat. If you consider Moat so bad, what (if any) removal spells are you presently playing? Lignify? I'd really like to know. Also, I think its a little harsh to say that Enchantress has fallen off the map, as not only was it not really "on the map" much to begin with, but people are (as shown in this thread) placing well with builds that use Sigil, Moat, and Ring. People who play these cards are doing well (about as well as Enchantress can do), so how is your build doing? What is your build?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meister_Kai
I don't know if that' still his list but from what I know Spautla advocates a much more tempo-based list as you can see in his post from page 64. Recent enchantress lists (I've seen much more on deckcheck during the last 2 months than any time before) are much slower than his. This leads to my question: Is that due to lists like Spatula's not being played as much or are slower versions really that better? I honestly don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
My timeline is a bit longer than most people's, specifically with reference to this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meister_Kai
Enchantress was, in my opinion, tier 1 at the time that it was basically just me and Jesse Hatfield playing it, back around the time the banned lists split and for about 6 months after.
It's pretty much been on a downward incline since then; once in a while someone does well with it, but considering that basically every tournament has at least 1 or 2 lists present, it's safe to say that the deck is tier 2.5 at best.
This is due to a couple related reasons;
A. They banned Replenish, which lead to
B. People taking the deck in a more controllish, less combo oriented direction. This sort of made sense without Replenish, since our options were pretty few at the time. It sort of didn't make sense, because at the time it was just a pretty bad deck choice.
Now that we have Replenish back, people continue to play the mediocre cards that were filling those slots, PLUS Replenish. This has led to an ungodly disgusting mana curve that just cripples the deck's explosive capabilities. In exchange, you get crappy control cards. Cards like Moat and O. Ring aren't played in tier 1 decks for a reason, they're slow and unreliable.
Lately I've been tinkering with Living Wish builds; I'd previously thought the card too slow, but this might be a good meta-game for it.
The Threats:
4x Enchantress' Presence
3x Argothian Enchantress
4x Living Wish
1x Sylvan Library
3x Sterling Grove
2x Replenish
The Accel:
4x Utopia Sprawl
1x Wild Growth
2x Exploration
3x Lotus Petal
D-Fense
3x Solitary Confinement
4x Elephant Grass
Other stuff
4x Ground Seal
1x Seal of Primordium
1x Aura of Silence
1x Words of War
Manabase:
4x Savannah
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
1x Taiga
1x Serra's Sanctum
8x Forest
SB:
2x Choke
Wish Targets
1x Squee
1x Argothian Enchantress
1x Serra's Sanctum
1x Wasteland
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Children of Korliss
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Jotun Grunt
1x Molder Slug
1x Mold Shambler
3x Baneslayer Angel
The wishlist is highly experimental at this stage;in addition to the obvious plays, the deck is capable of having a limited "Troll and Nail" strategy vs. control; you bring in fatties(Angels, Slug, Grunt, Shambler) and side out Confinements, Explorations and a couple Grasses.
If by "fallen of the map" you mean "made a ton of top 8's recently considering how many people are playing this", I might agree. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Enchantress is more on the radar in the past 4 months than it has been for something like 2 years. And I suspect its quite correlated with the fact that O-ring gives removal and Sigil is a fantastic win-con that doesn't require you to be fully online and winning.
The deck was Tier 1 when a tiny minority of people were playing it. Makes sense. :confused: I suspect your definition of "Tier 1" is rather... odd.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
In what Bizarro World does "basically every tournament" have 1 or 2 Enchantress?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
"A ton".Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
Really? Are you prepared to defend your hyperbole or do you want to revise?
A) That's not true. It's AS on the radar as it's been in the past 2 years, which is, not at all. Except perhaps in the minds of a few.Quote:
Enchantress is more on the radar in the past 4 months than it has been for something like 2 years. And I suspect its quite correlated with the fact that O-ring gives removal and Sigil is a fantastic win-con that doesn't require you to be fully online and winning.
B) O. Ring has been out for more than 2 years.
You learned your sarcasm skills from Hot Topic t-shirts, didn't you?Quote:
The deck was Tier 1 when a tiny minority of people were playing it. Makes sense. :confused: I suspect your definition of "Tier 1" is rather... odd.
Tiers aren't a function of popularity, they're a function of tournament success and power.
In the one where virtually every tournament you can find with a metagame breakdown has at least one enchantress list. Probably as a consequence of the cards in the deck being kind of narrow.Quote:
In what Bizarro World does "basically every tournament" have 1 or 2 Enchantress?
There are enough people playing it that if the lists being played were any good, they'd have caught on/started doing better/both.
Since the current lists are neither successful nor popular, it puts people defending these lists in a fairly tough spot.
Let's break this stall by providing some numbers. It's up to you to interpret them.
# of Enchtress making Top8 during the last month according to deckcheck.net:
January: 1
February: 4
March: 6
April: 4
May: 1
June: 3
July: 5
August: 4
September: 4
October: 9
November: 5
To get the full picture, we would also need the numbers of how many tournaments Enchantress was played in vs. how many top 8's it got. That would require Stephen M. level work and while I'm not up to it, hopefully someone is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
EDIT: While we are all on-board with posting decklists, I'll go ahead and post what I've been using to some success at my local 10-18 person tournies:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Ground Seal
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Sterling Grove
3 Replenish
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Exploration
2 Gaea's Touch
2 Lignify
1 Sylvan Library
1 Words of War
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savanna
1 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy
SB: Largely depends, but staples have been:
x3 Choke
x3 Sphere of Law
x2 Seal of Primordium
I still go back and forth from Lignify and Oblivion Ring, the 3rd Confinement and Moat. However, I now believe that you want to use the least amount of secondary color cards possible. It really helps your consistency.
I also am not really planning on dragging up the data. I think most people would agree that Enchantress is NOT a serious consideration for anybody's testing gauntlet. I don't say that happily, but it is what it is.
That said, I do rather like Lignify; A) It's green, B) It's only two mana. In my non-Wish list it's one of the top contenders for my two open slots.
I would also think you'd need to compare these results with other decks like Thresh and the like to see how popular it truly is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I think a lot of people try to make Enchantress a control deck, which it doesn't do as efficiently as other control decks. Its core is a combo; the more cards and focus put on executing the combo quickly the more successful the deck will be.
At first I tried providing numbers for other decks because you will need comparison. Once I looked up some of them I realized it wouldnt be worth the work as the numbers are much larger..Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoojo
:laugh: You got me!Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
No, its both. And pardon me if I take your claims with a grain of salt... about how the deck was really tier 1 when it was your pet child, and now that standard deck lists do something else, its started to suck. Even though apparently quality and Tier status has nothing to do with popularity, so I'm not sure how you measured it and declared that it sucks in its current incarnation. What criteria are you using? Care to clarify that one?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
I was definitely exaggerating for effect when I said "a ton", and I think you'll find you're doing the same here. Every tournament has 1-2 Enchantress decks, right :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Also you have this weird idea that the deck is popular enough to be in every tournament (that makes for quite a popular deck) and then you say its neither popular nor successful. Back to the drawing board...
There 2 missing from the recent months (these 2 were not listed because they didn't share the decklists).Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...omcairo+Trophy
^That event.
I would say that's not bad at all considering I hardly see the deck represented in terms of players.
@Balrog: You are right on some aspects, but wrong on others. While it is true that tiers (according to this sites DTB philosophy) are a function of both popularity and power, just because deck is popular doesn't mean its necessarily good. For instance, Bloodghast dredge sucks, but people are buying Undiscovered Paradise like it was gold.
Also, around the time this was Spatula's "pet" deck, the deck was tier one. Think about it, the other decks that were considered "tier one" were mono red goblins, angel stompy, and other similar decks. Enchantress eats decks like those alive. There really wasn't much combo to keep the deck down. It's bane was anything that ran a lot of black disruption, something thats not insurmountable to get around.
As for popularity today, you have to remember, Legacy isn't Standard, there are more than 4 viable decks. There is a good chance that in any given 20 person Legacy tournament there is a good chance there will be up to 10 completely different archetypes represented. A lot of legacy's decks are popular, which is why I emphasized how important the quality part of tier one status is, which Enchantress is sadly not anymore.
As for a more combo build (as I and Spatula, perhaps others go for) vs a more control-ish build (that you and others obviously support) all I have to say is that it appears what people are attempting to do is make Enchantress into a deck that resembles a worse Landstill with a slightly better or worse clock. Your deck is not designed to support WoW at all (when you are going for the kill, you don't want to be drawing multiple 2W etc enchantments), instead going for Sigil. If your goal is just laying down the control then eventually going for Sigil, why even bother using the Enchantress engine? Wouldn't you rather be playing cards like brainstorm and Words of Wind to bounce enchantments to get more angels? Perhaps this is a good deck idea, Landstill with Sigil that is.
In conclusion, Enchantress is a combo deck inherently. Spatula is right when he says people changed the deck once Replenish was banned out of necessity, and that they have yet to change back. I believe what most people consider Enchantress today to be a bad version of Landstill. Just because a deck is popular doesn't mean it deserves tier one status.
Hi folks!
It's my first post here, I'm brazilian so plz forgive my bad english!!
I agree that Enchantress is not a tier1 deck and it fails in being a combo or control deck, but i still loving this deck and I've been making some good results with it (2nd in a 36 man tournament, only losing to ANT, and 3rd in a 42 man tournament, losing to 2 Countertop Bant (mulligan to 5 all the matches =/))
This is the list I'm running:
4xArgothian Enchantress
4xEnchantress Presence
1xMoat
3xElephant Grass
3xSolitary Confinement
1xGround Seal
1xAura of Silence
1xKarmic Justice
3xOblivion Ring
3xSigil of The Empty Throne
2xGaea's Touch
4xUtopia Sprawl
3xWild Growth
3xSterling Grove
2xEnlightened Tutor
2xReplenish
4xWindswepth Heath
2xSerra's Sanctum
1xTree of Tales
1xHorizon Canopy
2xSavannah
XxForest/Plains
SB
2xSacred Ground
2xRuned Halo
2xCity of Solitude
3xChoke
1xWheel of Sun and Moon
1xBood Moon
1xKarmic Justice
2x Seal of Primordium
1xReplenish
I'm not feeling OK about this SB... what would you guys suggest to use against Countertop? I thought about Multani's Presence, but I'm not sure about it...
And how to sideboard against it? I never know what goes out =/
Tks for the help!!!
I'd definitely cut them Enlightened Tutors for anything against counterbalance (well, I'd actually cut them at all.). Even if you get it let's say turn 1 this means you wont be able to play whatever anti-tech (which usually costs 3) you fetched on turn 2 because you're missing the turn 1 acceleration. Once CB comes down Enlightened Tutor becomes even worse so it would be the first card I'd switch for some Cities of Solitude.
Besides that, get rid of that Artifact land. Especially with Gaea's Touch you want to maximize on the Forest you play. Judging from my experience, although Enchantress usually got a manabase less vulnerable to Wasteland and friends having nonbasics in your starting 7 can lose you games. Sometimes you're forced to go Turn 1 Savannah, Utopia Sprawl but whenever I do that it really causes me a lot of headaches. Usually only playing about 20 lands and depending on your tempo/acceleration a single Wasteland can set you behind real hard.
Regarding the sideboard I guess it won't get any better than Choke/City of Solitude with an additional copy of Replenish. If you're REALLY worried about cb you might try Krosan Grip but I can't provide any information on how that works out. I recently toyed around with Guttural Response, because it provides a certain element of surprise while usually avoiding Daze. And because I got a foil playset. Actually its meant to defend an Enchantress from Force of Will which would be hilarious.
Last night as an experiment vs. Countertop I sided 2 Choke, +1 City of Solitude and +2 Runed Halo (naming Goyf, Predator & Progentitus), and -4 Elephant Grass, -1 Holistic Wisdom. (MD already contains 1x each Aura of Silence, City & Halo).
I was hesitant at first, but I wanted to see how the runed halos would work to shut down big threats compared to SBing Seals for disenchanting the counterbalances. I was quite pleased and went 3-0 after this SB, and was able to bait out counters with the Chokes instead of the Enchantress effects. When the Goyfs hit, the Halo kept me going without the upkeep cost. All in all, Im pleased so far with 1x MD Runed Halo, in addition to the 3x Solitary Confinement.
But back to the point 2x City, 2x Choke was enought to keep Counterbalance down.
@GrimJack - If you are afraid of Progenitus, for the love of god don't take out Elephant Grass. I stops him cold, and I mean COLD.
@Julian23 - I've been running 1 Tutor, and for me it's a gold mine. With Grove a good Stifle target, a Tutor helps you out so you can keep the Grove as protection. It can also lure out a FoW, leaving you for a drop if you have it.
As for Sigil, I agree that is it the card that pushed Enchantress higher on the watchlist, and I'm glad to see no one talk about Ascension, that card is horrible.
Naming white is the most likely choice, I feel, for Iona's ability. We can hide behind a confinement for a little while, and killing Replenish is a kick in the junk.