[ATW] Landstill

Hi,

i want to present my current 4c Landstill version:

//Lands #24

3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Nantuko Monastery
2x Wasteland
1x Tolaria West
1x Academy Ruins

//Draw
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm

//Finisher
2x Decree of Justice

//Stuff
2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Deed
3x Explosives
2x Humility
4x Swords
2x Cunning Wish

//Counter
4x FoW
4x Counterspell
2x Spell Snare


My Board:
3x Meddling Mage
4x Extirpate
2x E-Plague
1x Pulse of Fields
2x BEB
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Slaughter Pact
+1 xxx


// Card choices:

Manabase:
I know, that the manabase isn't 100% stable, but it works very well when i play the deck. I like the tolaria west, because it gives me easily the nantuko under a humility or the academy + EE - lock. But maybe i should cut one wasteland for a savannah. Maybe you have some ideas.

It's the normal humility-wish build i think. The humility is absolutely ridiculous and owns nearly every deck.
I have cuted the e-dragon to play spell snares. They are very strong in my meta.

//My meta:
We play every 2 weeks in a bar in my hometown. We are always rougly 15 poeple, who are playing.

Decks:
Canadian UG/r Thresh (not the perfect build, but its hard to play against)
UG/w *****
Sliver
C.-Breakfast
Loam decks
Dredge
Goblins
Rock

What I'm thinking about:
The sliver deck and UG/r ***** play both 4 wasteland and 4 stifle main, so it's often very hard to stabilize my manabase and not die first. Therefor I can play 2 stifles instead of the spell snare to improve this matchup. But I like the spell snares, too.

Another Problem is, that i don't really know how to board against UG/r Thresh.
I always cut the 2 wishes and 1 counterspell for 1 pulse and 1 enlightened tutor and a BEB.

What should I board against C-Breakfast?
Last matchup I decided not to board the mages in because the humility was strong enough.
Just: +4 Extirpate +2 Plague +1 Enlight. Tutor
for -1 CoW -2 C-Wish -2 Spell snare -2 Decree of justice


greetz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns

Another Problem is, that i don't really know how to board against UG/r Thresh.
I always cut the 2 wishes and 1 counterspell for 1 pulse and 1 enlightened tutor and a BEB.

What should I board against C-Breakfast?
Last matchup I decided not to board the mages in because the humility was strong enough.
Just: +4 Extirpate +2 Plague +1 Enlight. Tutor
for -1 CoW -2 C-Wish -2 Spell snare -2 Decree of justice

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Boarding in extirpates against UGr thresh is always good, especially when cutting all your wishes from MD.

Against Breakfast, or any combo deck for that matter, you should board in the meddling mages even if you do run humility. E. plague is really good against breakfast as well and other decks, so maybe up'n the count in your sb would improve your m/u vs combo, sliver, and goblin decks.

On a side note, I've also had trouble playing against UGr thresh (even though many claim it to be a favorable m/u, but their stifle/wastelands really hurt) does anyone have suggestions for this m/u? Is it wise to allow a single mongoose to beat you down below 10 in order to wait for the UGr thresh player to drop another creature before you wrath of EE?

If a single Mongoose is kicking your ass, there really isn't a reason for the Thresh player to drop another creature (unless you can find a Factory). Chances are, against Thresh, you are going to be 1-for-1ing their creatures most of the time, so in that situation, don't wait it out, especially since that gives them more time to draw into counters/more creatures.

Agreed, trading 1 for 1 with Thresh is fine, they only have 8-12 creatures usually. Occasionally you will get lucky and they will walk into a Wrath or Deed, with 2 guys out, but most of the time if you have no Factories there is no reason for them to extend beyond a single Mongoose/Goyf at a time. When you figure you have 4 Swords, 2-3 EE, 3-4 Wrath/Humility/Deed, you have the sheer numbers to trade 1 for 1 with them and still have left over removal/win cons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burr

Boarding in extirpates against UGr thresh is always good, especially when cutting all your wishes from MD.

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Extirpate on goyf is really strong. But what should I board out?
Maybe:
+2 Extirpate
+1 BEB
+1 Pulse,
for -2 wish, -1 Counter, -1Deed ???

Or what would u do? I miss the enlightened tutor for the humility or CoW.

Quote:

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Against Breakfast, or any combo deck for that matter, you should board in the meddling mages even if you do run humility. E. plague is really good against breakfast as well and other decks, so maybe up'n the count in your sb would improve your m/u vs combo, sliver, and goblin decks.

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E.plague isn't very good vs. slivers, because they play 4 muscle + 4 white "muscle".
Ok, vs. breakfast I should also board in the mages.
My plan:
+4 Extirpate +2 Plague +1 Enlight. Tutor
+ 3 mages

for: -2 cunning wish, -2 decree, -1 CoW, -1 spell snare, -1 counterspell,
-3 xxx ????
Help^^....

Quote:

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On a side note, I've also had trouble playing against UGr thresh (even though many claim it to be a favorable m/u, but their stifle/wastelands really hurt) does anyone have suggestions for this m/u? Is it wise to allow a single mongoose to beat you down below 10 in order to wait for the UGr thresh player to drop another creature before you wrath of EE?

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When you want to improve your UG/r matchup I see only the opportunity to play stifles main.

greetz

Extirpate on goyf is really strong. But what should I board out?
Maybe:

Extirpate on goyf is ok, but extirpate on goose is your first goal post board.

Make your land drops hit a goose, pate it and watch them scramble for another answer. If they get a goyf remember you only have to bait them, you still have 4 swords and 3 more extirpates so your going to tear them a new one. The key for me always has been the burn versions. Beating them in time has been a problem sometimes. Thats why I usually try to eliminate threats and then mana base, as they only have 2-4 lands when they are at their best, with a butsex load of counters and disruption.

All boarding strategies with regards to the decklist at the end of the post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns

Boarding against Ugr Thresh
Extirpate on goyf is really strong. But what should I board out?
Maybe:
+2 Extirpate
+1 BEB
+1 Pulse,
for -2 wish, -1 Counter, -1Deed ???

Or what would u do? I miss the enlightened tutor for the humility or CoW.

---

I'll asume that you're talking about the Canadian Ugr Tempo Thrash here - boarding against Moon Thresh or the older Hatfield red splashed Thresh follows a different logic.

You want to take in:
Extirpate

The worst cards in that matchup are:
Cunning Wish -> they fetch literally nothing but Slaughter Pact or Extirpate making them really clunky. You can fetch a Pulse of the Fields to get out of burn range but I'd rather take things in that are not that mana/color intensive and actually prevent me from getting into burn range.
Decree of Justice -> it does pretty much nothing but stall for a few turns, if you managed to build up your mana through their disruption. It is also a pretty horrible wincondition since they can just Stifle it.

Hence:
-2 Decree of Justice
-2 Cunning Wish
+3 Extirpate -> I wouldn't board in more becaue you never want to see more than one and that one you only want to see in the mid-game when you've already handled a Goyf and survived the initial assaults on your manabase. Earlier it is just a blank and doesn't even pitch to Force of Will.
+1 Enlightened Tutor -> in matchups where I board the Cunning Wishes out, the Tutor comes in quite a lot because he fetches all sorts of bombs, especially having more copies of Humility/Crucible of Worlds/Engineered Explosives is very strong against NQG. Do also remember that you can always fetch for a Standstill if you're low on cards.

Blue Elemental Blast only hits 8 cards in their deck - which are all not scary enough that you want to dedicate a slot to fighting them - deckspace is more prime than that.

If you're up against the other, more controling, NQG builds, I'd leave the Cunning Wish in because it can always fetch you a solution to Counterbalance or Blood Moon. Taking 2 Extirpates in for 2 Decree of Justices still is a good move though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns

Boarding against Counterslivers
E.plague isn't very good vs. slivers, because they play 4 muscle + 4 white "muscle".

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Engineered Plague still 'counters' one of their Muscle/Sinew Slivers and can buy you some time to set up a Sweeper (Pernicious Deed / Engineered Explosives / Wrath of God) or Humility.

I'd try something along these lines:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Decree of Justice -> Just too slow and gets rendered useless by Winged Sliver too easily
-1 Eternal Dragon -> Just too slow. Also, they don't attack your manabase so that the fetching effect is minimal
+3 Engineered Plague
+2 Extirpate -> Still good on their Crystaline or Pump Slivers

Alternatively, with your build, you could go like this:

-2 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Decree of Justice
+2 Engineered Plague
+1 Extirpate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns

Boarding against Cephalid Breakfast
Ok, vs. breakfast I should also board in the mages.
My plan:
+4 Extirpate +2 Plague +1 Enlight. Tutor
+ 3 mages

for: -2 cunning wish, -2 decree, -1 CoW, -1 spell snare, -1 counterspell,
-3 xxx ????

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Against Cephalid Breakfast, you can take out a lot of stuff:

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Decree of Justice
-1 Eternal Dragon
-2 Cunning Wish
-2 Standstill
-1 Counterspell

+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Extirpate
+3 Engineered Plague

I'm not too sure about the plan though - I'll have to test that matchup more in dept (it has fallen off the radar in Germany) and I'll come back to you.

With your build, I'd take out another Counterspell instead of the Eternal Dragon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns

When you want to improve your UG/r matchup I see only the opportunity to play stifles main.

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The matchup actually still is quite favorable for you - you just have to get used to it and play quite carefully leaving fetchies uncracked as long as possible etc.- and always keep in mind that you only have to resolve a Humility* and win. With this attitude of non-chalence, you shouldn't have too many problems - especially since they can only do one thing most of the time: disrupt you or kill you.

*: You should be in full control of the game by the time they find their singleton Wipe Away or Rushing River - you shouldn't have any problems winning that counterwar - just don't let your plays become sloppy and play carefully (pre-emtively play Deeds/EEs etc.).

This is the most up to date 4c Cunning Landstill, I fully recomend playing it:

Code:

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/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (25)
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Windswept Heath
    1 Polluted Delta
    4 Tundra
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Scrubland
    1 Savannah
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    1 Tolaria West
    4 Mishra's Factory
    1 Wasteland
    1 Academy Ruins

// Winconditions (5)
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Eternal Dragon
    2 Decree of Justice

// Permission (8)
    4 Counterspell
    4 Force of Will

// Card Advantage (10)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Standstill
    2 Cunning Wish

// Removal (12)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Pernicious Deed
    2 Humility
    2 Engineered Explosives

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
    3 Engineered Plague
    4 Meddling Mage
    3 Extirpate
    1 Pulse of the Fields
    1 Slaughter Pact
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Seed Spark
    1 Blue Elemental Blast

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I still like the Crucible of Worlds / Life from the Loam split as it gives you greater mana stability in the early game which is especially great against anything that attacks your manabase - rendering their LD near to useless (SuiBlack, NQG/r) or at least only transforming it into a tempo-measure that they have to sustain for a larger periode of time to really get you off removal mana.
Eternal Dragon still is great too: really - don't make the mistake to cut him. This will severely hamper your control matchup where he shines. Also, he is pretty good in literally every matchup because he fixes all your splashes and can even get a basic under Blood Moon.
Also, play more lands. You just have to get your mana right and you'll win in nine cases out of ten - so there's no reason to play sub-par cards like Spell Snare which are better left to the more tempo-orientated builds like Bardo's (or any with Tarmogoyf and/or Counterbalance) rather than playing more lands... you can't get flooded as every single land drop you have granted puts you one step further towards the lategame - and every topdecked land is just as bad as a topdecked counterspell which doesn't matter since your removal/permission suite is big enough if you know what you're doing**.
There's no reason not to play the full set of Meddling Mages in the sideboard as they are great in any combo matchup (duh) and get sided in for nearly all the control matchups too - they are just way too versatile and polyvalent.

**: Don't counter something that you can't handle otherwise, always go for the maximum card advantage out of your sweepers etc - if any deck rewards playskill and a strong knoweldge of the matchups, than it is this one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Extirpate on goyf is ok, but extirpate on goose is your first goal post board.

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I have to disagree here: Tarmogoyf is the scarier threat as they only need to out-tempo you for ~2-3 turns to win. Mongoose takes longer to kill you and is handled by as many things as Goyf (Swords -> Factory).

In my testing goose has always been the determining factor in games. Goyf simply screams swords me EE me Humility me! god I love humiliy on goyf, tis soo much fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

In my testing goose has always been the determining factor in games. Goyf simply screams swords me EE me Humility me! god I love humiliy on goyf, tis soo much fun.

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Mongoose is handled by:

• 2x Engineered Explosives
• 2x Humility
• 4x Pernicious Deed
• 4x Mishra's Factory

Tarmogoyf is handled by:

• 2x Engineered Explosives
• 2x Humility
• 4x Pernicious Deed
• 4x Swords to Plowshares

For sure Nimble Mongoose is a good threat against control, it just gets a lot worse than Goyf as the game goes on as you're more likely to have Factories/DoJ (preboard)/whatsoever. Even Pulse of the Fields shuts down a Mongoose in the later game - and Mongoose gives you more time to find your outs than Tarmogoyf which is the essential point since you have as many outs to Mongoose as you have to Goyf.
Now Extirpate needs you to aleady have dealt with one copy of a given threat. This means that you're in the mid- to late-game most of the time. In this situation, you're quite likely to be in a favorable position - the only chance of your opponent winning once the initial disruption plan has fizled is to mass up counters and burn to then swing and kill. This is done significantly easier with Tarmogoyfs as they beat for twice as much as Mongoose in the lategame which means that he only has to outpower you for half the amount of turns.

Der your amazing. I didn't think it was possible to fit tolaria west in a 4c list and have it work, but you did it! God I love this card, Anyways Im testing between 3-4 deeds, and im not sure what I like right now. Especially with your mana base lightened on green. We'll see.

Sorry if this was brought up, but why the seed spark for handlight artifact/enchantments instead of something a little less coslty? (grip, disenchant?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebbitten

Sorry if this was brought up, but why the seed spark for handlight artifact/enchantments instead of something a little less coslty? (grip, disenchant?

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Seed Spark makes guys. Granted, they're little guys, but they can still turn sideways into the Red Zone for the win.

Also, many Counter-Top players are learning to play around Grip. However, 99.9% of the time, there is no way any of the decks running Counterbalance can get a 4 cc permanent on the top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Also, many Counter-Top players are learning to play around Grip. However, 99.9% of the time, there is no way any of the decks running Counterbalance can get a 4 cc permanent on the top.

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Mystic Enforcer will be most curious to hear this.

However, it's a fairly valid point that it's unlikely to occur.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Also, many Counter-Top players are learning to play around Grip. However, 99.9% of the time, there is no way any of the decks running Counterbalance can get a 4 cc permanent on the top.

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How is it more probable that the CB player will have been constantly maintaining a 3cc on the top of their library and flip to beat Grip, than it is likely that they will just be able to outright answer Seedspark or respond by stacking their deck to counter it.

In order to play around Grip you need to keep the 3cc on top right up til your draw then move it down one deeper to avoid drawing it. To begin with most Counterbalance decks aren't running many 3 drops, but I guess once they hit one this would be a valid plan. In the meantime if you're keeping a 3cc on top the opponent runs out any non-3cc card you either don't use Counterbalance or reposition cards to answer it. If you move a non-3cc to the top and CB it, then you're exposing the CB to Grip and obviously they take the opportunity to Grip the CB.

Versus Seedspark that they can Brainstorm//Top in response to and admittedly rarely put a Mystic Enforcer on top, or they can just Force of Will or Counterspell it to protect their Counterbalance.

I don't see how one can say that Seedspark is a more reliable answer to Counterbalance than Krosan Grip. The first is suceptable to both the Counterbalance trigger and external counters, the latter can't be responded to and has to have a 3cc be preemptively placed, and maintained on top.

Obviously Seedspark shines in most other cases since the 1mana difference isn't huge, and getting a couple doods isn't bad, but against Counterbalance it definitely seems inferior.

The problem i faced was generally when i had a problematic artifact/enchantment (generally counterbalance or a moon) I cared much more about dealing with it asap than getting a dude (or nothing since the moon eats my green mana).

On Extirpate: Isn't the first thing you Pate Wasteland against UGR Canadian Thrash? Then you can play the rest of the match without worrying nearly as much about your mana and be able to actually play the mana intensive cards that can deal with Goose.

Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mental

On Extirpate: Isn't the first thing you Pate Wasteland against UGR Canadian Thrash? Then you can play the rest of the match without worrying nearly as much about your mana and be able to actually play the mana intensive cards that can deal with Goose.

Thoughts?

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Hm... I would rather prefer to play Extirpate on Stifle. Stifle attacks your fetchies, EE and your Deed.

greetz

Hey all,

I use a similar build to Tacosnape:

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace Beleren
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime // Punishment

SB:
4 Sacred Ground
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague


I've been a bit underwhelmed with the Stifles, and was wondering what a good replacement for them might be. I'm sold on the rest of the deck, as it feels like I have more than enough creature control to deal with most decks. In my meta there is very little combo and a lot of Thresh/Loam/Ichorid/Survival.

I'm not necessarily looking for metagame slots to replace the stifles, but rather comments on whether or not I should cut them, and what could possibly replace them. The only thing they seem to be good for is stopping wastelands, storm spells, and the occasional fetchland. There arn't too many applications for it in my opinion in a deck that doesn't fear deed/explosives.

I would appreciate any insight into this matter.

Thanks!

Idk, Stifle is a bomb against Combo and Goblins, those and Wasteland protection are the major reasons they are in my MD - they are also fairly solid in the mirror. There are definitely some matches where they are pretty underwhelming, (non-Thrash)Threshold, Survival, most agro. Even in the matches they are underwhelming in, almost every deck has a Stifle target or two, Fetches, or CIP creatures, Cycling cards, etc.

Stifle is also good against ringleader, matron, seige-gang commander, ichorid, cephalid collessium, survival, and random CIP abilities survival may bring to the table...

Without wasteland, crucibles are very underwhelming and you have access to a non-counterable (well, self recurring), non-gripable card called life from the loam...


I was never a big fan of jace, I personally would run FoF instead.


EDIT: Cairo, you are pretty quick!