[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by Finn

Hi guys. Before you all go switching out Avengers and Grunts for these new Crusaders, ask yourself how often find yourself attacking with an equipped creature and not winning. If I am at that stage in the game, I have it pretty well wrapped up even if I am sending in Mother of Runes with a weapon in her hands. The extra damage is Timmy win-more. The protection from green is the most important part of that equation imo. Any discussion on swapping cards should have that feature as this creature's primary focus.

Here's my perceived problem with the Crusader: It dies to a lightning bolt and it is too slow to stop 3 V.Vs on turn 3. So where is the time to need it most?

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Hopefully Vengevines won't be part of the equation by then hahaha 4 more days to go!:)

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

Hopefully Vengevines won't be part of the equation by then hahaha 4 more days to go!:)

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But you can't rely on this. I agree with Finn here.. Grunts and Avengers are amazing for what they are, but one of the biggest reasons they're as good as they are is the casting cost. By the time you hit the mana to play a 3cc dude and start swinging with a sword in his hand, you could be winning with carrier pigeon at that point. The card is great, I like it a lot, but i think it might be just 1 mana too expensive, especially to be taking over the slot of grunt or avenger. If you're going to cram it in, i'd be looking elsewhere, and really looking at what matchups you think that it's actually going to be helpful for you. Is it going to be anything for you other than an evasive beater? Doesn't Avenger do that already for cheaper?

I think the point I was trying to make is it wins in 2 turns with either Jitte or SoFI. Even if it comes into play a turn later than Grunt or Avenger, I'm looking at it's superiority with equipment. For example, if you equip it with SoFI, you've got a virtually indestructible beater that does 8 combat damage plus 4 direct damage plus draws 2 cards. That so ridiculously superior to Avengers 5 damage - draw a card and pro blue/red flying.

Without equipment, Avenger wins in 7 turns, Crusader/Grunt in 5 (obviously way easier with Crusader). Typically, without blink tricks, grunt sticks around for maybe 3 turns of combat.

This deck can protect it's creatures with blink abilities but it by no means has the same level of protection that say Threshold had. If we were playing aggro in a control shell, I would be supportive of the "play a low cc dude and protect him as he goes all the way".

Personally, I still want to play this deck where I just get my superior shit on the table and then Cataclysm. I would much rather have Crusader + good equipment + Plains(flagstones) & Wasteland + Oblivion Ring after the Cat than any other dude (even probably Mangara + Karakas). I want to win, not dance around with my opponent. I hate losing games with this deck when I think I've broken parity and my opponent rebuilds because my 3/3 flyer can't get the job done in time.

I think the current iteration of the deck is trying to do the mana denial plan, cheat a cheap dude into play and then gradually win. Compare that to Goblins which start almost exactly the same - mana denial, cheat a dude into play but then TOTALLY DOMINATE. Do you see the difference there? Why are we even trying to segue from fast start into control finish? Seem like that's what keeps this deck Tier II. No explosive finish.

Cataclysm? That card has been used, set aside, used some more, and put on a shelf.

It works fine if your strategy abuses it. Obviously against some decks it does virtually nothing. Right now that happens to be Survival decks so I'm not surprised it's on the shelf.

I tend to keep it around for Lands and Landstill. I don't really have anything else for the 2 random extra slots anyways.

it helps enchantress as well, and hell yeah it helps a lot there

but,... cataclysm is imo now more a sideboard-card than a maindeck-card, because the deck itself followed a different direction .... equipment, but actually i can see 2 different directions of development, heavy mana denial with arbiter, maybe even cataclysm/armageddon main, and the lets say more traditional route with stoneforge mystics and equipment

Before swapping Grunt or Avenger for Crusader, think about creature curve. You REALLY want to put something into play when Vial has 2 counters. Also, ProGreen is good and so on, but Grunt actually deals with Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary AND Wild Nacatl, so I don't see that much benefits from Crusader. Finaly, another double white cost is clearly not what this deck wants.

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Originally Posted by LegacyDan

Wow, NO. I can agree that Mom is a strong card. BUT like most decks there are more controlling versions and more aggro ones. I myself am running a very aggro D+T list, Moms only slows it down. In my meta I need to punch out more damage as quickly as possible, control their mana, and get the attackers through. Without Moms, I have been going x-1 and x-0 in my local. Had I been using here, I would not be making moneys on a weekly basis.

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Contradiction? Anyways, i'm interested what other 1-drop replaces mom in you aggro-geared version.

As for the Crusader, my take is that testing will tell. I can see it being a 2-of mainboard maximum. It seems pretty neat sideboard material though. Let's first test and the discuss...not the other way around. ;)

Testing is the best way to decide. I agree fully with that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

Here's my perceived problem with the Crusader: It dies to a lightning bolt and it is too slow to stop 3 V.Vs on turn 3. So where is the time to need it most?

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So that's a great argument against dropping Grunt but really says nothing about Avenger. Avenger dies to bolt, dies blocking 1 VV if it's lucky enough to come down T3. Look, I love Avenger but without lifelink or pro-anything, I'm not sure the flying bit matters. It only races if you're playing vs a slow deck. If you haven't stopped the onslaught, a T3 Avenger with summoning sickness is not really much of a threat. Now if you happened to make your curve and you're putting Isamaru (I know he's not in any list now - but I'm speaking hypothetically) into play T2, Grunt T3 and Avenger T4 and you happen to Swords one of their dudes and O-ring another then blow the board, you might actually be able to pull out of your predicament.

I mean, understand what I want to do with this deck is not to put incremental pressure. I want to trade early and often and then play something I can win the game with. Ideally, that would be done by dropping Vial -> Swords and/or Wasteland -> equipment or Mystic -> the guy who's going to win the game for me -> Blow everything up. Obviously, I've played enough magic to know that never happens but it's were I start when trying to build my deck.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Today i made Top4 with this list:

Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures:
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage

Enchantments:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison

Sorcery:
2 Life from the Loam

Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB(mostly focused on strom/burn/gobs/zoo):
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke

5 Rounds + Top4.

1 Round G1 (Ub Merfolks)
I win the roll. Its quite easy MU preside, I opened with Ghost Quarter -> Vial (FoWed), he played Island -> Cursecatcher. Then i add Forest and massive Tarmogoyfs + Filckerwisp on his blockers in next turn 2-4. Without removal he couldn't survive. After bloking with 2 lords i StP one of them, all table in his side goes of, gg.

Side in Umezawa's Jitte, Choke, side out -> Enlightened Tutor, Life from the Loam

G2 he opened with Island->go, i keep risky hand with Horizon Canopy (only 1 land) and 2 Vials. I started Horizon Canopy -> Vial and met Spell Pierce. He played Wasteland (then screw up - I thought), but instead of Waste'ing he played Silvergill to draw (showing Lord of Atlantis). I topdeck Plains (good one) and played Arbiter. Next turn my opp played next Silvergill and miss land drop. I topdeck wasteland) and destroy his Island with quarter. Next round he waste my Canopy, after some punch from 2 Silvergills next rounds i topdeck more lands and had Goyf and Knight of Reliquary 3/3 on table (gravehate). He had Lord of Atlantis, Merow Reejerey and Cursecacher. We both was at few life's. He had to attack with all to take of all. After all i topdeck Tarmogoyf and game ends. 2-0.

1-0

2 Round was Lands/Scapeshift

Game 1: I lose the roll and he started with exploration, Fetch->Taiga Rishadan Port. I opened with Vial. This game was very long (mostly thx to stalling lands players who's know game one is his best chance to win). After some maze's of ith on table. I try to played agressivly with Goyfs/Knight of Reliquary (i had 2 on table) using then as backup plan for mazes (wasteland).Mangara was very nice here to remove Mazes from the game. He topdeck Scapeshift and win with 2 life left. (Sad).

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog,4 Leyline of Sanctity, Pithing Needle, 3 Gaddock Teeg, Absolute Law
Side out: 4 StP, Ghostly Prison, Tabernacle, 3 Flickerwisp, Umezawa's Jitte, Mangara of Corondor.

Game 2: We had only 8 minutes left to termination, i played aggressively but couldn't fight 2 Mazes and Zuran orb even after remove'ing graveyard away (with 1 Maze and and Laom), didn't have Gaddock Teeg on table. He scapeshift for little i had leathal dmg on table to take off it. Next draw Absolute law... termination come and draw. 1-0-1
1-1

3 Round was Dredge
Game 1: I know dredge very well played it for a while. I opened very good hand with Tabernacle, StP, Goyf wasteland and Savannah. I played Savannah and pass the turn, opp played Gemstone and Imp. In this moment i recognize that i made mistake (should play wasteland but who knows that i was dredge). I played wasteland -> waste his gemstone and pass with opened Savannah for StP. He discard Troll, dredge for six (next troll, iona, bridge, Ichorid, some trash for Ichorid and amoeba), then he played a Cephalid Coloseaum and... (i was worried about Breakthrough) but he just pass after attack. I played Tabernacle and pass the turn, he put up ichorid (Sworded) dredge for more fuel next moeba in play (only one Bridge). After topdecking Loam i was safe wasted his last land and played Goyf(5/6). Few rounds later was gg.

Side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog
Side out: 2 Aven Mindcensor, 1 arbiter

Game 2: Was similar but with Tormod's Crypt on table and Tabernacle on open. Wasted/Quartered to death. After playing i was talking with him to optimize his sideboard plan - that was his first try with dredge. I couldn't find answer for tabernacle. Also wrong sideboarded - he take off Flame-Kin Zelot..

2-1

4 Round German Loam (Moxes, Exploration with Knight of the Reliquary beater)

Game 1: Don't remember it good, but massive aggro with goyfs/arbiters with mana disrupt (wasteland to Maze) enough he didn't find loam (had intuition) but never had 5 mana on table.

Side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog.
Side out: Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, Fickerwisp

Game 2: Was his, no vial mull to 5 eated to death by Wastelands from Loam and Rishadan Ports.

Game 3: I made good tempo with Arbiters/Goyfs(1/2 lol) from vial with Crypt on table. I was suprised by his sideboard with Terferi's Response. But he still couldn't survive tempo. His last hope was more maze's and Glacial Chasm, I used 3 Mangaras without Karakas to break his plans and wins. 2-1

3-1

5 Round GW Survival (with Iona/Retrainer)

Game 1: Was clasical porno from Survival. He win the roll (Fetch->Forest->Hierarch). (No StP in hand) second was Survival and pass. Arbiter on table (StP).. 3rd turn i had 3 Vengevine rushing.. in 2 rounds (with another StP for blocker).

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Pithing Needle
Side out: 2 Life from the loam, Ghostly Prison (this card is bad vs survival GW with pride mages).

Game 2: Was asymmetrical to first, he had flood (after game i ask him about number of lands 23 is too much imo) i Sworded his bop, and blow up Survival with Qasali (locked for a while with Arbiter). After 2 Goyfs and Knight with Mangara backup he pass.

Game 3: Wasn't funny. He started with Savannah Bop i StP from Canopy, he wasted it and pass. I wasted Savannah and Vial. He miss his next land drop. Arbiter he topdeck fetch. Then eated to death by mine Loam + waste under Arbiter with Goyfs. 2-1

4-1.

Semi-finals

Round 6 Next Survival, this time Gb thought it will be Ooze..

Game 1: Was total punish to Survival. I win the flip and opened with Vial. After take off BoP and waste Bayou game was almost mine. I put arbiter from vial and qartered forest. Then Goyf/Goyf/and 2 Flickers at beginning. That was fast.. Opponent was impressed.

Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Pithing Needle
Side out: 2 Life from the loam, Ghostly Prison (this card is bad - to costy vs survival GW with pride mage).

Game 2: Bayou-> Thoughseize take down Arbiter.(he was good scouting when i beat Survival round before). I ansewered with wasteland -> Bayou. Next turn, Fetch -> Cabal therapy take off both StP. Mine Karakas pass. He put on survival on table after droping forest and that mean mostly gg. I found Goyf on topdeck and pass. He put next land and had 3 mana. He discard Vengevine, goes for Birds and discard Fauna shaman and goes for Quirion Ranger. I didn't topdeck any thing to take of Survival and survive alfa strike from Vengevines with Shriekmaw's backup and Game 3 started. I saw Prgenitus while discarding.

I decided to didn't put Gaddock Teeg vs Orders. Maybe that was wrong.

Game 3: Was similar to Game 2 with he take off mine Arbiter with StP than, 2 BoPs then Natural Order next round to Progenitus. Couldn't do anything (poor hand after mull to 6 with 2 vials).

Bad luck with sideboard, didn't met any Storm/Burn

Comments please

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I came to this thread to read about D&T's thoughts on the spoiled crusader and I like this list. A little hard to read but nice report. would like to write more later.

good job. I'm working on a arbiter list now but I wouldn't call it D&T and mine's WR not WG. interesting

I actually use Kor Duelist and Goldmeadow Harriers. Harriers are more useful for EOT tapping, and then tapping down the final blocker. Mom is good at stopping removal, yes, but I find her useless in other ways. IE: my meta has a decent amount of Factories and Mutavaults, blockers that Mom can't stop.

And no, there was no contradiction. I would gladly run Mom if I wasn't interested in making store credit or increasing my DCI. Or if my meta shifts of course. But until that day comes, she will stay in my binder where I keep all of my other D+T options.

Thx, sorry for my poor language.

Tomorrow going next testing on Legacy Tournament - Legacy Mobilizacja. I'm going to write report from it.

Adding some thoughts about list:

I was working on adding some more single lands and moxes to speed up a little (on first turn - arbiter drop) but after testing i think it is bad idea. Current list is very consistance, it doesn't have draw engine so CA is very important here. With moxes/more lands it loose it.

This list has one big advantage on standard D&T:
It is prepared for most actually decks and it is very stable.

With the recent banning of Survival, where does this put Death & Taxes? Stronger? Weaker? How would an updated list look like?

I am interested in this deck, seeing as I am looking to pick up a new deck soon. I have been sleeving this up as a proxy deck for the last few days, and I really like the feel of the deck. However, before I venture out and buy me some white dudes I would really like to hear som opinions from current Death & Taxes' players.

- forsmark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forsmark

With the recent banning of Survival, where does this put Death & Taxes? Stronger? Weaker? How would an updated list look like?

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The Arbiter/Mindcensor lists had pretty good game versus Survival, while maintaining solid match up versus Tribal. Honestly, I think the deck was positioned pretty well in the pre-Dec.20th meta. The combo decks that were/are present are still rugged match ups, but D&T holds up versus most of the fair decks that don't have huge sources of card advantage that we can't mitigate. Engines like: CBT was evadable by Aether Vial, or Goblin Ringleader being trumped by Sword of Fire and Ice; Survival was answerable with the Arbiter/Mindcensor plan. It's probably too early to say, but with Survival out of the picture, I'd expect to see more Zoo, CBT, and board control decks, none of which are particularly favorable. Card parity/advantage in the form of Pernicious Deed, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Sensei's Diving Top, Sylvan Library, etc we don't tend to pack mainboard solutions for.

Personally, I'm probably going to be picking up UW Tempo again as my WW deck of choice. I think it's positive/even match ups are similar to D&T's, while having better game versus D&T's weaknesses - combo and control.

I plan to capitalize on my D&T build for the rest of this year (I guess Survival lists will continue infesting the meta until the end of 2010), and then sit back for a week or two and watch new trends pick up steam and unfold. I'd like to go back to a Pikula list of mine that was very successful around here before the VV-Surv crapfest took off, though I'm also considering picking up UW Tempo again. Not becuase I think that D&T will begin to suck in the post-Survival format, but because I like certain amounts of diversity in what I play. :)

In the end, it's really just a meta question. D&T is a strong deck in each and every but the most combo-infested metagames, and picking up some rather cheap and actually pretty versatile cards to build the deck is a solid plan at any time and rate, imho.

Two days ago i played 5 rounds in blind meta game. I made poor 2-3, let's start analysis.

Deck called Loamed D&T

Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures:
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage

Enchantments:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison

Sorcery:
2 Life from the Loam

Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB(mostly focused on strom/burn/gobs/zoo):
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Round 1 - ANT (bad bad MU) - I lost the flip.

Game 1 - Wasn't funny, : Opponent started - Fetch, Dark Ritual, 2 x LED, Infernal Tutor -> Ad N-> Tendrils for 20..gg
0-1

Side in: 3 Gaddock Teeg, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, Choke, Tormod's Crypt
Side out: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Ghostly Prison, 3 Flickerwisp, 4 Swords to Plowshers

Game 2 - I started Leyline on table, Temple Garden tapped go, opponent swamp thoughtseize (on my hand 2 Leonin Arbiter, Mindcensor, Goyf, Savannah) he choose Goyf. Next rounds i put 2 x Leonin and Ghost Quarter his lands he didn't find aswer for Leyline without lands (only fetches on hand).
1-1

Game 3 - He started with Duress (probably scarred Orim's Chant's) i kept hand with Leyline and Goddeck Teeg. Leyline gived me time for put Goddeck on Table and this enough, with KotR on table game ended very fast.
2-1

After this round i made little scouting i looks at other tables. Meta was awful (last tournament with SotF: Couple of Survivals with Vengevines, 2 Belchers, ANT, Dreadstill, Goblins, White Weenie, one Dark Horizons - 0 Merfolks not so friendly MU for me)

Round 2 - GWb Survival - I won the flip

Game 1 - I kept hand after mull to 6 with vial, wasteland, StP and Goyfs - good one. I started with Vial and pass. Opponent Forest Noble Hierarch. Charge Vial, waste and Goyf. Next opponent put Fauna Shaman and put fetch. I Charge Vial, draw Arbiter i StP his Fauna shaman, and Waste his fetch he smiles and response, so am I with Arbiter (he read it two times and was disgusting :] ). Game ended quite fast with Qasali on table and Goyfs. No Survival - No win.
1-0

Side in: Pithing Needle, Bojuka Bog, Tormod's Crypt, Krosan Grip
Side out: 2 Oblivion Ring, Enlightened Tutor (to slow), Life from the Loam

Game 2 - He started with Hierarch, i Kept bad hand after mull to 5 (no Cenzor/Arbiter/Gravehate) but with Jitte. He take of Jitte with his own Jitte and in turn 3 he put Survival on table, without and answer i died in 2 turns.
1-1

Game 3 - He started normal with BoP and pass, i had arbiter on my turn (sworded).Opp adding more BoPs. I put Goyf and pass. He draw (btw nice topdeck) and cast Natural Order -> Progenitus. That game ended quite fast. He chump block on BoPs and kill me in next rounds.
1-2

Natural Order was annoying specially on 3rd game - but on that day Natural Order was going to be more annoying ;).

Round 3 - Belcher he win the flip

Game 1 - He started vomiting all hand and put 16 tokens - i didn't have Tabernacle on start and on draw so lose..
0-1

Side in: 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 3 Gaddock Teeg, Pithing Needle, Umezawa's Jitte, Krosan Grip
Side out: 2 Oblivion Ring, 2 Life from the Loam, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Mindcensor

Game 2 - Was easy i draw Leyline and Gaddock, with fast beater like Goyf. Game ended fast.
1-1

Game 3 - I Know that my opponent only chance was Empty the Warrens (he popably take out Belcher - too many hate) i mull hard to Prison/Tabernacle/Gaddock and didn't find any of them after mull to 5.. that was sad. Opponent put 16 tokens in 3rd round and game ended.
1-2

Round 4 - next combo ? Aluren - yes :), lost the flip..

Game 1 - I know this is my good MU - Aluren. He's Combo uses searchers so its easy to disturb it with hate bears, and that was first game was from his side draw, land, go to the end.. After more and more beaters (Arbiter/Goyfs/Cenzor) on my side.
1-0

Side in: Umezawa's Jitte, 3 Gaddock Teeg, Choke
Side out: Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, StP,2 Oblivion Ring

Game 2 - Game started with hard discard Thoughtseize, Terapy and so on. I put Arbiter but he was flooded with basics. I put little pressure but he draw Pernicous Deed and clean the table at the end of my round and cast Natural Order (i didn't have Cenzor) 2 rounds later gg.
1-1
I reside: Pithing Needle with second Swords to Plawshares.

Game 3 - I put second turn Goddeck Teeg and vial, had karakas. But simular to Game 2 i didn't draw Tutor or Qasali and he flooded with lands and Deed -> clean, fetch Order gg. That was really annoying.
1-2

I have to find some answer for Progenitus or probably meta fluctuate with more control and NO died as normal.

Last round was with Rogue WW deck with vials and allies - easy MU not worth raported 2-0 for me.

Overall: 2-3 is bad record.
In 5 rounds - 4 combo decks (or 3 and survival), no control. Very bad MU for me. Sideboard works quite well, but to win u need to draw it ;]

I was thinking about this: http://magiccards.info/vi/en/119.html in sideboard, Retribution of the Meek looks quite well but after SotF i think its not needed.

If you really don't like Hydra, try Tariff.
Retribution of the Meek conflicts with your Goyfs and KotRs.
Runed Halo is also an option, but you'll have some trouble flying over Hydra 'cause you run lower amount of evasive creatures and no equips.

Playing against 3 combo decks is quite unlucky!
Progenitus can also be answered by runed halo but it will always remains an issue for us.
It also seems that the loam engine has not been that useful...what are your thoughts about it ?

By the way :

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Game 2 - I started Leyline on table, Temple Garden tapped go, opponent swamp thoughtseize (on my hand 2 Leonin Arbiter, Mindcensor, Goyf, Savannah) he choose Goyf.

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How can you be thoughtseized with the leyline on the table ?