Mossivo: So... you're actually running CoP:R now? What made you do that?
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Mossivo: So... you're actually running CoP:R now? What made you do that?
Some Crazy bitch told me to run it. aka I mentioned it in Post 1407
Flattering.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Oh I was just kidding, don't take it personally. You convinced me to run it because of the rediculous number of krosan grips were playing against in the green matchups anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Ok, the posts before aren't superclear, but if I'm reading right one or two of you guys have introduced a 61th card in this deck. My team has tested and discussed a 61th card in Ubg Giftstill al lot, and I think the arguments for this build are the same.
61th cards makes only sense if you're playing a toolbox deck (this is not) and the one silver bullet makes you win more then you lose by drawing that card instead of the next, good card.
The other argument to run 61th cards is to fix the ratio's between kill/counter/removal/land/card advantage.
For any well built deck, the last one doesn't apply. For this deck, the first one doesn't apply. Therefor, 61 cards is in this situation very bad. Or at least, 60 cards is better. Even with our Gifts/silver bullet deck, we concluded 60 cards are just better. If you're having trouble with hitting lands, I suggest you take a look at my (and my team's) build.
3 Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
SB:
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Relic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague or Hydroblast/BEB
The argument for a 61's card in our case "what we are talking about" is that theres a 5% jump in land consistency from 60-61 "61st card being a land." In my case I run 22 land, and a 5% jump would help the consistency of my deck tremendously. So if the theory is correct, and I havent been mana screwed at all so far, then 61 is the correct number for my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
cop:r is good vs progenitus and burn, so why not. :)
That the argument used to refute the power of CoP: R is Krosan Grip when you have a bajillion other threats in play like Ajani.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
You're wrong. By playing 23 land in 60 cards, you're even more consistent. I'm sure there is another "worst card" in your deck than that delta. The 61th card isn't a land, it's a Wish, or a Fact or Fiction, or the 3th Explosives, or a relic, or a top, or Humility. 61 cards are almost always (I stated the exeptions before) worse then 60 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I strongly advocate playing more lands in landstill, but since you removed a still also in your list, you're moving away from the concept of landstill anyway.. I run 24 lands, and a dragon, I almost never have manaissues.
I'm not sure if I like V. Clique. I'm lookig for some anti-ANT tech (other than the Sculler/MMage+Ajani board) and I think Clique is that tech. But in other matchups, I fear for a dead card. It's not good in the Agromatchups, or is it? I didn't test with it yet.
Obviously playing 23 lands in 60 would be more consistent, but when you play this list you will quickly understand that playing 23 in 60 isn't really an option. Break down the deck, you'll see it for yourself. Also to note: I don't need an additional toolbox card, so it doesn't really help me under the current circumstances. My split betweeen removal/draw/win-cons/permission is a perfect 10, and the utility is 4 where I absolutely love it.Quote:
You're wrong. By playing 23 land in 60 cards, you're even more consistent. I'm sure there is another "worst card" in your deck than that delta. The 61th card isn't a land, it's a Wish, or a Fact or Fiction, or the 3th Explosives, or a relic, or a top, or Humility. 61 cards are almost always (I stated the exeptions before) worse then 60 cards.
I strongly advocate playing more lands in landstill, but since you removed a still also in your list, you're moving away from the concept of landstill anyway.. I run 24 lands, and a dragon, I almost never have manaissues.
The average amount of land in landstill is 23, I was playing 22. The only reason I changed was to suit mws shuffler, and its been amazing. If you'd like to go into a deeper analysis the average cc of my deck is something like 2.2 or 2.4 I can't remember. Most landstill decks "take for example konsultant's" is something like 2.7 I think Rockout gave me that little factoid. This allows me to get away with running a lower land count, as well as the simple fact that I run more early kantrips then most models. Also to note, in case you missed it most landstill models are cutting to 3 standstills and a fourth bigger draw spell that either acts as a win condition "jace" or a reactionary spell "fact or fiction."
I understand you run the equivalent of 25 lands, which is terrible; but that's ok, because its how you want to play your model. I guarantee you none of the regulars here; including I would MORE THEN LIKELY ever run 25 lands. Its simply a waste of extra gas that could be in your hand.
All i'm going to say is read the past couple of discussions on here about clique. It's amazing, and I'm not going into it again. For referance see rockout.Quote:
I'm not sure if I like V. Clique. I'm lookig for some anti-ANT tech (other than the Sculler/MMage+Ajani board) and I think Clique is that tech. But in other matchups, I fear for a dead card. It's not good in the Agromatchups, or is it? I didn't test with it yet.
I played very similar list last saturday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
Instead
-1 polluted delta
-1 dust bowl
-1 tolarian west
-1 academy ruins
-1 eternal dragon
-1 wrath of god
+3 wasteland
+2 humility
+1 sensei's divining top
I wasn't very satisfied with fact or fictions so I'm thinking cutting one for another top (which was mvp btw). It was pretty small tournament, only 23 players and I ended up being fifth with 3-0-2 record.
I won scepterchant, dreaded fish and goblins, tied with baseruption (0-0 lol) and domain zoo.
I talked with Dif briefly yesterday and he mentioned that I should strongly consider 4x top. This goes against all logic in my opinion, but I want to listen to the arguments. If this logic is true then landstill definitely needs to run additional fetches (moss) as well as a dragon. (Dif.) I'm not sure exactly how I feel about this like I said and it really bugs me so i'd figure I'd throw it out there to dif/konsultants/ citrus.
Damn, you just said to me that 3 tops was too much and dragon sucks!:laugh: Talking about cunning landstill, I think that 3 top is fairly good (it has a longer game plan than speedstill). You were right that maybe 3 sucks in my list because my approach is much similar to speedstill, thought. (Look back a page or two to some of my consideration for a new list, I'd really like some comments and more insight on clique, in case PM me fif you don't mind, tx).Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
4 tops seems quite overkill, especially without counterbalance plus you actually have to find room for them (cutting more brainstorms is awful) AND run more fetches which this deck doesn't need and opens us up to stifle. Maybe I'm way off, but I don't like it.
So, I was thinking that maybe tidehollow sculler is quite a strong card in legacy. Have the folks who are playing 'speedstill' or whatever tried this guy in the main? I've wanted to cut wrath from my list since I added vindicate and sculler seems like a good card in it's stead, especially for the 1-for-1 style of deck speedstill can be. This is my current list with the sculler change:
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 island
3 plains
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
1 fact or fiction
2 counterspell
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
3 engineered explosives
3 tidehollow sculler
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
1 crucible of worlds
What do you guys think? Absolutely awful? It obviously improves ANT game 1 but has numerous other applications. And unlike rock and deadguy we can actively protect him. Seems good to me, but let me know your thoughts.:)
Fun fact 001: the average cmc of my deck is 2.51
Running Tops also allows you to board in Counterbalance. Another strong reason to include SDTs. Another thing I have issues with is that when Landstill is topdecking, it tends to have issues finding ways to get itself back into the game or get the right filtered cards.
Sensei's Divining Tops are good, for sure. In it's place, extra Cunning Wishes and Fact or Fictions tend to serve the same purpose. They're all valid ways to get yourself back into the game and find the answers you need. I think you need to test 4 Tops. While playing Threshold, I always liked seeing extra Tops; so strongly consider the 4 SDT idea - heck, even 3 SDTs are worth considering.
I still hate dragon and I think that running 3 tops is not a good idea. I stand by my opinion. But if theres a way to make it work more efficiently in a faster paced landstill model that doesn't get hindered by multiple tops then yes I do believe its a possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Sorry for the confusion, and there is always the strong possibility of me being wrong in alot of cases. I am not always right; just most of the time. :)
If you're running 3+ Tops then what is the logic behind having Counterbalance sideboard? CB/Top dominates the format, if it's good out of the board then I see no reason not to run it maindeck. Adding 4 cards to get one of the most potent combos in the format seems worthwhile to me. Not doing it is like running Painter's Servant without Grindstone on the basis that Grindstone doesn't fit within the strategy of your deck (assuming Painter's Servant somehow does, but you know what I'm saying)
Well, this list, this manabase perfectly suits my metagame: Agro (mostly Goblins and Goyf Sligh), Canadian Thresh, Dreadstill, Merfolk, Rock, Survival, Loam, and some ANT. You see, a lot of wastelands flouting around. Looking at your list, I think you have the luck of seeing much more CBThresh or Baseruption. I hope you understand it isn't terrible, it's a nessisary evil. I'm almost never manaflooded, always have a use for it, or I brainstorm it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
If you design decklists so that they work with the MWS shuffler, that's ok, I prefer lists that work irl in tournaments I attend. I'm still jealous on the way you managed to sqeeze the third spell snare in. As you can see, it's pretty good in my meta, but I didn't manage to find a slot. Any advice?
This deck is probably the most tunable deck, depending on playstyle, metagame and personal flavor, so I'll stop the discussion about your list now, 'cause I don't know what you're facing on a regular basis.
I think the comparison is a little weak. Servant/grindstone is a combo that acts as a wincodition, cb top is not, obviously. The main reason is that decks packing cb top engine, like, said threshold, have enough slots to pack also an aggressive part, which standstill obviously doesn't have. Running 4 cb is, imho, absolutely a waste of slots, and a pain to fit the curve enough to get control of everything. Always ihmo, cb is a good sb strategy (although I prefer mage + halo) against decks with a low mana curve that are a pain in the ass for us (burn, some combo, etc.). Now, landstill has a metadependant component for sure: if I playd in a control-combo-burn meta i'd maybe try to sneak 4 cb MD. But atm, I see no room for it, especially if we're talking about speedstill approach. As for the 3 tops, I run 5 fetches and crucible (no random slot now that I got back to a singleton etutor), and I assure I have never had problems with the 3rd copy. Especially if you plan to cast an early standstill, top is amazing as your first-second turn spell; having 3 copies, you aren't afraid to burn away one with a EE@1 without losing a turn because you switched the first card for saving your top. In every case, the earlier you see it, the happiest you'll be, believe me. I recently cut 1 because i got back to etutor and to 1 cwish (as citrus-god pointed out, top and cwish play a similar role).Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Man, I like your stile! :) As I said, I believe that 3 tops are best suited for a longer game plan like that of cunning landstill. But if the testing with the 1 etutor+1stick+1cunningwish fails, I'd surely got immediately back to 3 tops+3 vindicate (1 top's gone for stick, 1 vindi's gone for wish).Quote:
I still hate dragon and I think that running 3 tops is not a good idea. I stand by my opinion. But if theres a way to make it work more efficiently in a faster paced landstill model that doesn't get hindered by multiple tops then yes I do believe its a possibility.
Sorry for the confusion, and there is always the strong possibility of me being wrong in alot of cases. I am not always right; just most of the time. :)
Coming back to the previous discussion, I see clique being good in merfolk MU and control MU (and loam too, ofc). Not seeing it lotta good against goblin and elvescombo, and maybe a little slow against other combo. more testing and impression needed.