[Deck] Imperial Painter

I am disappointed.

Painter has lacked results in any decent size tournament as of late. I have noticed a distinct downturn of performance since the infamous blue delve spells have been printed, largely this amounted to a rise in UR delver and now OMNI. While a lot of these matchups are not unwinnable I feel that over the course of 7+ rounds we just run into to many close but lost matches due to the diverse field. Many people have been having successes at home, mainly in 5-6 round tournaments which is great, I just get sad when we have three large Legacy events (one SCG and two GP's) and only 1 RW painter deck makes day Two.

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Originally Posted by mcbain

I am disappointed.

Painter has lacked results in any decent size tournament as of late. I have noticed a distinct downturn of performance since the infamous blue delve spells have been printed, largely this amounted to a rise in UR delver and now OMNI. While a lot of these matchups are not unwinnable I feel that over the course of 7+ rounds we just run into to many close but lost matches due to the diverse field. Many people have been having successes at home, mainly in 5-6 round tournaments which is great, I just get sad when we have three large Legacy events (one SCG and two GP's) and only 1 RW painter deck makes day Two.

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Well, that just means it's time to innovate.

I will start by saying I like what people are doing with the third color splash. Slaughter games seems like a strong addition. I've been playing the black splash on MTGO some and so far I like it in general. I've also been testing some other black cards in the board just to see how they would work. This is what I've found so far...

a. The black splash really only seems to be good against combo or control match-ups where you either aren't worried about landing a blood moon (most combo) or you have time to find petals and use them as needed (control). I've tried cards like engineered plague, illness in the ranks and toxic deluge, and they have either not impacted the game enough, are too corner case, or you can't get them down in a reasonable fashion due to blood moon, getting white into black mana, etc.. Of all of them I think E.Plague has the strongest potential. But I used it in a couple delver MUs and just wished it was a pyroclasm.

b. slaughter games is good in the right MUs and I think could come in against Miracles. If you can remove their few win cons it makes it hard for them to win.

c. I think other black SB cards could be considered. So far I've tried Chains of Mephistopheles as a one of and liked it quite a bit. I've considered a few other cards as well, which has brought me to my real point. Are there other cards that are worth evaluating as we open up into a third splash color? Is black the best splash color?

Here are a few cards I've considered so far: Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, Recurring Nightmare, Perish (the one anti-aggro card that I would consider wanting over Blood Moon in certain MUs), thoughtseize

I guess I'm wondering if we could just expand on the idea of a splash, as that seems to be the best way to combat Omni-tell and possibly Miracles. And if people think that cards like Engineered Plague are also viable, I'm interested to hear your perspective as well. Obviously it would shine in tribal MUs and against token decks. I would be willing to play it in paper over Sphere of Law, but there are just still too many burn players on MTGO for me to take it out yet.

A couple other main deck changes that I've made that I've really liked so far include 3 magma jet against creature strategies (particularly delver, stoneforge and deathrite). It kills some of our worst enemies (such as opposing revokers) and helps us dig for combo pieces, so it's never dead. I also swapped out one of my welders (now down to 2 again) for a spellskite. I've been seeing a lot of infect in my local meta and this card is quite good against that deck and generally sucks up a lot of opponent's hate. I also like that it can survive a lightning bolt and protects painter against swords, which welder often can't do.

I did try Hanna's Custody as a one-of in the board and didn't love it. The biggest problem is that it shut off welders and spellskite and protected opponent's artifacts such as needles, revokers, equipment, and worst of all, null rod.

I'm mostly just trying to renew some interest in the deck. I've actually had some success with some of these changes. My favorite aspect of this deck is that it always has the potential to be viable. And as a former Dredge player, I can tell you that that's not always the case.

I played 1 Engineered Plague in the SB at Lille. It did its work against elves and merfolk, getting rid of TNN was really nice. I also believe it's kill against DnT, alas I never got to meet one.. It might also be worth siding in against Young Pyro.

Being able to tutor it makes it so king, and with 4 petals, black and white mana was no problem early!

Engineered Plague seems fine, although you lose utility against goblins tokens out of TES, as it is not a guaranteed turn 1-2 card, meaning like Illness, I wouldn't run it without also running EE. Thoughtseize or Duress might be worth a try in some SB number over some other answer cards, though not necessarily good.

I like slaughter games, but I'm not sure going deeper into black is the way to go. Most of the SB options aren't huge trumps against terrible matchups the way that slaughter games or Engineered Plague might be, so probably aren't as good as staying mostly white/red and maxing out on REB as vindicate/counterspell.

For a black splash, what about Cabal Therapy? I'm not sure if it would be worth the space but Therapy then casting a Recruiter to grab Painter and sacing the recruiter to grab removal spells and counters allows you to go off alot easier. It also grants you valuable info on what is in their hand and if you should be dedicating resources on going off quickly or developing a solid boardstate. Just a thought.

For people playing Slaughter Games goes how many are you playing?

Cabal therapy actually seems a great idea of the discard spells to me too because it can be milled and flashed back while you have blood moon.

My sideboard atm looks like this:
2 Slaughter Games
1 E. Plague
1 EE
2 Sudden Shock
1 Firebolt
1 REB
1 Koth
+the usual grave/storm hate.

While Therapy sounds nice, it just doesn't fit with what we're doing. Sure, it can be milled and flashed, but we have no other means for looking at their hand beforehand, and it doesn't shut down all copies like Slaughter Games.
It goes for all discard, really.. we'd need to rework too much to add disruptive elements.

However, I do think Surgical Extraction could've been an option instead so we don't need the addition of black like Slaughter Games.

I don't like surgical because it can a) be countered and b) be fizzled by dig through time and c) relies on neither a or b happening while also requiring you to counter a show and tell or whatever the target may be first.

I also don't know about cabal therapy either, and while it certainly would come in against combo decks, I think it would be better against removal spells from fair decks where recruiter gets you a painter, and then therapy lets you strip their hand of whatever your painter will die to.

Someone should test it out, might be worth a couple slots somewhere, though I have my doubts.

Hey, long time follower of this thread. I have been playing painter (paper) for over a year now. I keep switching from mono red to the Rw. I recently started playing on mtgo. I have a noob question for mtgo. For some reason I can't weld out the grindstone for the painter with the grindstone activation on the stack. It does not let me hold priority. The only time that trick worked for me was when in response to my activation of the grindstone my opponent spun his top and then I was able to weld it out with the activation on the stack. Am I missing something? I kept right clicking and choosing stack all abilities and yield to all, but nothing works. It has cost me a few matches.

Keep up the good work with this primer. I've pretty much read it from front to back.

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Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken

Hey, long time follower of this thread. I have been playing painter (paper) for over a year now. I keep switching from mono red to the Rw. I recently started playing on mtgo. I have a noob question for mtgo. For some reason I can't weld out the grindstone for the painter with the grindstone activation on the stack. It does not let me hold priority. The only time that trick worked for me was when in response to my activation of the grindstone my opponent spun his top and then I was able to weld it out with the activation on the stack. Am I missing something? I kept right clicking and choosing stack all abilities and yield to all, but nothing works. It has cost me a few matches.

Keep up the good work with this primer. I've pretty much read it from front to back.

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Hold control as you do all of this, and you won't pass priority.

Thanks you. I was going crazy. Has anyone considered trying quarem trench gnomes in the sideboard? I've had it in for a bunch of matches but never got to cast it. I would bring it in against miracles and possibly dnt. Miracles game 2 and 3 I always find myself shaving a moon or two and I would bring him in to in theory make the opponents tundras and plains produce colorless. I figured it would stall hem from double blue and double white. Any thoughts?

The problem with surgical is that we aren't playing discard so we have to hope to counter the card we want to remove and then remove it with surgical, hoping surgical doesn't get countered.


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Originally Posted by SDBobPlissken

Thanks you. I was going crazy. Has anyone considered trying quarem trench gnomes in the sideboard? I've had it in for a bunch of matches but never got to cast it. I would bring it in against miracles and possibly dnt. Miracles game 2 and 3 I always find myself shaving a moon or two and I would bring him in to in theory make the opponents tundras and plains produce colorless. I figured it would stall hem from double blue and double white. Any thoughts?

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Miracles has ways to deal with that easily. And for 4 mana, it should be immediate must deal with permanent, like Koth. At 4 mana you really don't want to be trying to deny mana at that point in the game.

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Originally Posted by drude1

The problem with surgical is that we aren't playing discard so we have to hope to counter the card we want to remove and then remove it with surgical, hoping surgical doesn't get countered.

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I don't like surgical all that much either, but with grindstone it could be ok. Slaughter Games just seems better because of uncounterability and chance to look at their deck and hand, and to grab stuff even if it isn't in the grave.

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Originally Posted by RingoDeathStarr

Hold control as you do all of this, and you won't pass priority.

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Playing Solidarity was quite frustrating till I figured this out haha

Has anyone tried to put in mentor? Trying to get better clock on the table perhaps versus miracles or omni? Haven't read any test plays with it, but it may not be good enough or perhaps that's the direction we need to be heading.

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Originally Posted by Uroborian

Has anyone tried to put in mentor? Trying to get better clock on the table perhaps versus miracles or omni? Haven't read any test plays with it, but it may not be good enough or perhaps that's the direction we need to be heading.

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I don't think that Painter supports Monastery Mentor as well as other decks do since we don't play cheap cantrips and have to be much more selective about when we cast our non-creature spells.

I have two ideas when it comes to Omni, one very unconventional that I don't want to share quite yet, mostly because I want to test it before I talk about it. The second more conventional answer has to do with a new card that might have good value against Omni and Miracles. Scab-Clan Berserker: seems like it can help close the game out fast.

Pros
Has Haste (likely becomes renowned the turn you play it)
Is a Tutor Target that "levels up" to a 3/3
If it's not dealt before it becomes renowned it becomes a significant threat to decks that cast a lot non-creature spells.
"Forces" them to burn a STP or flash creature, or risk it becoming renowned.

Cons
Pretty weak if not renowned
It might be too slow for Omnitell
Might only net you two life if they choose to use a STP on it.
Having it trade with a flash creature is weak.

This card seems meh on the surface, but when you consider that it's very possible that it's can act like a one sided eidolon of the great revel in the right match-ups. Worth looking at IMO.

I just want to remind people that delver decks with counter spells lose to Omni-tell all the time. Trying to beat them with a "fast clock" by adding a couple beaters to the SB is not the way to go, unless those creatures also mess with their game plan (see Canonist, Thalia, Lodestone Golem).


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Originally Posted by drude1

I just want to remind people that delver decks with counter spells lose to Omni-tell all the time. Trying to beat them with a "fast clock" by adding a couple beaters to the SB is not the way to go, unless those creatures also mess with their game plan (see Canonist, Thalia, Lodestone Golem).


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A valid point.

I suggested Scab-Clan Berserker becuase it basically takes the actions that Omni-tell does as part of it's gameplan and make them part of our gameplan. Is this good enough... prob not.

A couple things to note.

I saw more verity in both Omni-tell and Miracles at GP lille,
Miracles: Two varriants one that plays Entreat the Angels, and one that plays Monastery Mentor. I don't think this changes things for us much though...
Omni-Tell: Two varriants one that plays Release the Ants, and one that skips that entirely and uses the usually backup method of eladamri's call into Emrakrul to win 100% of it's games. The second one seems way better for us, as two Ensnaring Bridges often will often make it impossible for them to win, but it does make cards like Canonist, Thalia, and Lodestone Golem marginally worse since it takes less spells for them to win the game.

The miracles deck innovation was the top miracle decks were running daze! They knew that many matchups were going to be mirror's/other blue deck and the best way to land t2 counterbalance is to have your opponent force and you the proceed to daze. Getting their best card on the table as well as 2 for 1 -ing your opponent. So beware that miracle list may be experimenting with this at your next tourneys. I certainly would never have played around it coming from miracles.

In regards to the recent suggestion of a black splash, I'd like to suggest Guardian Beast. I've thought about him numerous times, and maybe 4 cmc is too much, I'm not sure, but he does protect your artifacts, is searchable with recruiter, and doesn't die to a lightning bolt.
Just a thought.

Unfortunately, he doesn't protect painter or revoker.

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Originally Posted by RingoDeathStarr

Unfortunately, he doesn't protect painter or revoker.

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Yup, my bad

I am getting ready to start gearing up to play at SCG:DC next month. It's been awhile since I've been able to play in a major legacy event, so I don't know the meta all that well.

Based on the no-no in banned list announcement, do you expect the meta to be pretty set at this point?

Are we looking at a meta that is mostly made up of the following:

Miracles
Grixis control
Delver (Grixis, RUG, BUG?)
Stoneblade
Omnitell
Shardless BUG
ANT (Storm)

With a few fringe decks?

In my experience at these things, you will for sure play against Miracles, DnT, bug of some variety, and esper stoneblade, as these are the most common decks people own. The rest is kind of a die-roll.

No bans -.- guess that's slight progress. Good luck in your meta's and tourneys

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

I am getting ready to start gearing up to play at SCG:DC next month. It's been awhile since I've been able to play in a major legacy event, so I don't know the meta all that well.

Based on the no-no in banned list announcement, do you expect the meta to be pretty set at this point?

Are we looking at a meta that is mostly made up of the following:

Miracles
Grixis control
Delver (Grixis, RUG, BUG?)
Stoneblade
Omnitell
Shardless BUG
ANT (Storm)

With a few fringe decks?

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As Ringo mentioned, also consider D&T in the mix. And given the results of GP: Lille, I would expect a rise in AggroLoam strategies as well.

I wouldn't. aggro loam tends to be popular in europe, I don't think it'll impact over here as much as other recent gp's

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Originally Posted by Mapson

I wouldn't. aggro loam tends to be popular in europe, I don't think it'll impact over here as much as other recent gp's

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You would still say that after what happened with OmniTell in Japan? I'm just saying people pay attention to what's doing well.

On the other hand, people also like to play with their Brainstorms.


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Still amazing how no moon decks made it day two and three out of five lands decks top 8


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Originally Posted by jandax

Still amazing how no moon decks made it day two and three out of five lands decks top 8

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Is Painter popular in Europe? It just might be a case of Painter being underrepresented.

If people turn to Lands right now... and more Lands decks start showing up... that's fine with me.

I've been messing around with this for the past few days in light if the no br change and from looking at general results. Chose to focus on consistency and speed g1 before dig can overtake the game and then adjust with board bullets accordingly based on matchup. Also been trying zero alt-cons board for a) space reasons but b) because with miracles running so much mentor now koth is a lot worse. Will probably try ATL or the parents card soon though. Three tops have been really nice again for smoothing and the led is for busted welder and top tricks

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City or Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great furnace
4 mountain
5 fetchland

4 recruiter
4 painter
3 welder
2 simian
1 revoker
1 jaya

4 moon

4 stone
3 top
3 petal
1 lions eye diamond
1 bridge
1 explosives

4 pyroblast
3 red blast
2 tutor

Sb
1 tutor
1 reb
1 crypt
1 rip
1 thorn
1 canonist
1 3sphere
1 bridge
1 hedge mage
1 magus of the moon
3 firebolt
2 pyroclasm

I know it seems like a bold claim after the omnishow gp but the situation there is different I think because omni wasn't as overrepresented in japan before the event like loam was in europe.

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

Is Painter popular in Europe? It just might be a case of Painter being underrepresented.

If people turn to Lands right now... and more Lands decks start showing up... that's fine with me.

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I introduced myself to several painters in lille butnone post here. And yes, painter is a known quantity here. Not something one needs to sideboard, and since blue cards with delve were printed i have yet to surprise anyone with the deck like i used to. We just have a lot more shit match ups than before so we dont go too deep too often. Im totally fine with people playing more lands though.

Love running a single LED at FNM sometimes, super super fun. Usually do 3x e-tutors main when I do.

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Originally Posted by jandax

We just have a lot more shit match ups than before so we dont go too deep too often.

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Well yes Painter isn't as strong as it was when everyone was skimping on basics, and Shardless BUG was the deck to beat... but uh I don't think the meta is that terrible for us either, it's better then it was a few months ago when Treasure Cruse was legal, but worse then it was prior to the printing of more delve spells.

I think if anything it's just a matter of evolving the deck some, we've got plenty of odd tools in the toolbox that we can use to beat some of the dominate strategies.

What do you see as the bad matchups?

I see show and tell decks as real problems, miracles is a skill based match where we have the tools to succeed, and pretty much all other red based decks are tough.

In my experience, before the printing of Delver of Secrets and blue delve cards, I went top 4/8 of 10 of 12 locals, winning two. Since then I haven't played regularly and haven't placed either. Blood moon was boss and only SnT played eldrazi to trump painter/stone, and no one played burn. Life was tits.

We definitely need to innovate to stay consistently competitive, unfortunately I can't contribute what I want to the development of this deck. It's just so much fun to play, I can't see myself switching decks. But I want to win when I get the chance to play.

We should change the name from shortcake to catch22


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Originally Posted by Uroborian

Has anyone tried to put in mentor? Trying to get better clock on the table perhaps versus miracles or omni? Haven't read any test plays with it, but it may not be good enough or perhaps that's the direction we need to be heading.

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I literally just had the same idea and think this is a very smart way to go. That card is incredibly good in decks playing SDT (flipping a single top gives you a dude every turn and it gets filthy with multiple tops), searchable with Recruiter, and gives you a MUCH better alternate way to win and control the board than simply attacking with 1/1s and 1/3s. I have watched so many games turn into rather stupid games of 1/1s attacking over and over again. The card would add much needed flexibility to the deck. Also, you can attack with 1/1 monk tokens under a bridge, then cast spells to pump after attacks. Seems like you could shave a combo piece or two to fit in a few and because you now have a new angle of attack (less all-in). Will be testing more myself.

Just playing devils advocate;

We don't have a lacking of alternative wincons. And attacking against miracles, running terminus, doesn't strike a favorable chord. We need a better PW than koth. Or enough sideboard space to side into the hate.dec with sets of 3balls, chalices and moons


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Originally Posted by jandax

Just playing devils advocate;

We don't have a lacking of alternative wincons. And attacking against miracles, running terminus, doesn't strike a favorable chord. We need a better PW than koth. Or enough sideboard space to side into the hate.dec with sets of 3balls, chalices and moons


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You could start to play Dragon / Goblin Stompy :tongue: :wink: