Aggro loam or storm combo depending on the buildQuote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
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Aggro loam or storm combo depending on the buildQuote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
Combo, mostly because of your lack of pressure which gives them free reign to get all the duresses/chants they want and combo off without trouble.
Apart from that I'd say every matchup is pretty winnable, heck, combo and ichorid are hard but winnable as well, some hard ones are burn/sligh and merfolk can be a pain if they get the nuts.
ah mmk thanks for the help guys
With Zoo, Merfolk, and Countertop variants being the most popular decks in the format right now, it makes sense to me to drop the black splash and play red. Plague isn't as good against Merfolk as Firespout, which also shines in the Zoo matchup. The red splash also allows for REB in the board, which is good against both Merfolk and Countertop.
Here is the list I am considering running at the 5k.
UWr Landstill
4x Standstill
4x FoW
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
3x Fact or Fiction
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Humility
3x Firespout
3x EE
2x Decree of Justice
2x Elspeth
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Plateau
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Dust Bowl
Sb:
3x Hydroblast
3x Relic
3x Pulse of the Fields
3x Pyroblast
3x Meddling Mage
Pulse in the board makes Zoo an auto-win, and saves us against burn, goyf-sligh, and gobbos. I'm not sure about Meddling Mage, but it's this list's best option against storm. The uses of the blasts and relic is pretty obvious. Thoughts? Suggestions?
I don't consider Ichorid a bad mu. We cast swords on their Ichorids, countermagic to first draw spells, engineered explosives against tokens and cunning wish->extirpate (or the new trap if you don't run black). Post board Relics helps.
I think Merfolk or combo (supposing you don't play countertop) are the worst mu's
Have you ever actually played the ichorid mu? The plan is good in theory but sometimes you don't see the hate or they therapy it out of your hand or the first spell they cast is ancient grudge on your t1 relic. I board in 10 cards against and its still annyoing. Granted I can beat it but its still one of our toughest matchups and we'll lose about 70% of g1s.
Decent Ichorid players would eat us alive. Its no better than storm combo preboard and requires quite a few sideboard cards (though they are of broad use). Relic/Extirpate/MM/Plagues/Humility are all decent against Ichorid and may change the experience. Unlike Ichorid, Storm combo requires specific hate and unless you put many of it, it is still going to suck.
Little report for my 7th place at master of geddon II (Padua), 135 players, with a list I put up in a couple of days, and tested barely nothing! :tongue:
Plus I hate siding out, and so I tend to build decks more skill intensive MD and with a plain sb, while with this list is the contrary. :confused: So here it is, a wish-less vindicate-less wrath-less ... -less landstill:
// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Spells
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk (MVP!!!)
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [4E] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
1 [IN] Dismantling Blow (MVP!!!)
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
Round1: Campigottto Sandro with blue enchantress.
g1. wow, not an easy MU to start with. My notes say I fetch a couple of times and I forced something, but I go in recursion with disk at t4, I think there's no need for further explanations, I didn't need to show my EE's and dism. blow.
g2. he starts too fast, I tried to get disk online once more, but he sees all of his orings, no way for me...
g3. land go for me, land go for him, mage on argothian enchantress for me (he had one in hand and drew one), followes by another mage on oring (which he draws!). T4 elspeth and I raced him with flying mages. He tries energy field but I show him dismantling blow and he concedes.
Side: +4 cb +4 mm +1 etutor (I lost the paper with the correct siding, if I find him I'll update, sorry! :cry: ).
2-1
1-0-0
Round2: ??? with reanimator
g1: he starts a bit slow with a force of mine to slow him down, hits a counterspell and obviously scoops to t4 humility with force backup and a couple of mishra's on the table.
g2: I see too much counters and flying mishras put a 4 turn clock
2-0
2-0-0
Round 3: carlo gnesotto aka jegger with ad nauseam
g1: wow, another difficult MU... plus jegger is one of the best ant players in italy (see here). I opened hand with double blue, double force, snare, standstill, counterspell. Yummi! I bashed him with factories till he reached 6 life, but then all my counters can't stop all his silence/orim's chant.
g2. bashed him with/mage factories till 6, but a reb on a mage and game errors decided the game. I eot tutored counterbalance, he goes orim in my upkeep. I should've force the orim, play cb, and pass, but I let the orim resolve and he wiped away my mage (on tendrils), then combed off. I bluffed double forced by paying 5 my only force, but I shoul've payed the alternative cost of fow and save the mana for the snare to counter his infernal tutor for igg. I've been stupid, I paid for that.
0-2
2-1-0
Round4: ??? (sorry, in that lost paper there were the complete names...) with dragon stompy.
No brainer, extremely favorable MU.
2-0
3-1-0.
Round 5: Filo ?!? with Wg stax.
g1: a friend whisper in my ear that my opponent is playing "a deck with ancient tomb". I start relaxed with lots of lands thinking of DS, play top pass and being punched hard by a chalice @1. I drop EE@0 and standstill, and he play armageddon, which I cannot respond to. I then draw tons of lands and keep his crucible off the table, resolve elspeth and win, countering all of his things and taking his only knight of reliquary to the path of exile...
g2: he locks too fast and 2 unresponded armageddon does the (fast) game.
g3: +1 crucible +3 mm +3 cb -4 snare -3 standstill -1 humility. I start well with basics and top + jace. He resolves smokestak and I resolve counterbalance. He charges stack up to 2, then casts the 2nd smokestack... I flip... elspeth! wooow, that wasa good flip! The turn after I resolved elspeth ftw, while he got killed by its own smokestack.
2-1
4-1-0
Round 6: andrea ?!? with ugr fish
g1: screw, very short game. the second and the third are a bit long, but snare > reb and elspeth wins alone.
2-1
5-1-0
Round 7: miani davide aka boucha with RGw sligh.
g1: he starts to burn e to 6 in a few time. I cast a standstill and waste him with dust bowl, lol!
g2: counterbalance missed all the flips... :cry: (side note: i'd really like to find 1/2 slots for the 4th brainstom and/or the 4th top, many times I wished to see more). EE and mishra did the rest.
2-0
6-1-0
Round 8: scattolin fabio with baseruption
ID
Top8: stefano venturini aka mostro with iona reanimator
g1: lol! he reanimates iona naming white and i draw nevinyrral's disk with jace, lol! when he is able to reanimate iona again he's at 3 with 2 elspeth soldiers watching him.
g2/3 I made some play errors, sigh! I could've maybe won, but heh, it's good anyway.
Props:
-ace and soldan,for organizing legacy event that gather so many people
-to the beautiful girls in the room... man, playing magic is good, playing magic with girls is more good! (playing magic with girls and a beer is even more good, but it's just too much for 8-turns with landstill :laugh: )
-the fans, that kept my brain cool for 9 turns!
-to fabio marchesi, my mascotte!
-to elspeth, a real warrior on the battledield, but now good even on the top of the deck, lol! :laugh:
-to manzoteam#1 and #2, that supported me and waited me (the car was mine, so my way or the highway! :smile: )
-to nevinyrral's disk and dismantling blow, supertech!
Slops:
-to the 2 players who, with the judge at their side, asked the opponent to roll a dice to decide the winner of the match... must be retarded! :rolleyes:
Congrats on your finish, gustha.
This just goes to show that even without cards like Wish, Vindicate, and WoG, that Landstill is still a beast. Truly my favorite deck in the format.
Gustha, it seems like in almost all of your matchups, you either brought in Counterbalance, or bringing in Counterbalance would have helped you. Do you think that maybe maindeck Counterbalance would have improved your performance at this tournament (given your pairings)?
Also, if you're going to run Counterbalance anywhere in your 75 (you should probably run 4), you should run 4 Top's maindeck. First of all, Top is the best spell in the deck. It singlehandly wins you games, and there is no other card in the entire deck that I want to see in my opening hand against every single matchup besides Top. Multiple Top's shuffle eachother away, so that's a non issue. Also, if you want maximum effectiveness from Counterbalance in the matchups where you truly rely on it as a crutch (like against RGw Naya Sligh), running 4 Brainstorm is a good idea.
How did Dismantling Blow fair for you? I'm not really a fan, since it is somewhat narrow in scope. I think I'd rather play Oblivion Ring in that spot, honestly.
How was the lack of WoG for you? I know against any deck that I see aggro, WoG is my favorite spell to have. Unlike EE, it answers every single creature on the table, regardless of cc.
Again, congrats on your finish. I've been advocating doing away with Cunning Wish for a while, and this tournament result seems like a great start at proving my point.
First of all, thanks.
Proving that landstill can do well without wish, or vindicate, or wrath was not obviously my main goal, but I can say it was my secondary (the first being winning the tournament, ofc :wink: ). Let's say it was a bet: having discarded wrath and wish, it remains to prove that landstill can do well even without vindicate. For this, I thank klaus for the suggestion of dismantling blow in the experience of UWr landstill, which I brought here in UWb. The card may seem situational in respect of vindicate, but:
-there's always an artifact/enchantment we want to break, and the rest is pretty much covered by many other things;
-it's instant;
-fill the same cc for counterbalance, and profits of the weak point of counterbalance in aggrocontrol decks;
-the kicker is quite useful, and top makes it great;
-is not a permanent, so doesn't conflict with EE;
-great in addition to disk, the real guest star of the deck.
Given my pairings, I think MD counterbalance would have helped much, in fact I brought it in almost every round, and would've helped me to 2-0 decks I 2-1'd, and maybe win the MU against ant, though the real MVP card of the day were, in order, Meddling mage and disk ex aequo, followed by dismantling blow. But my pairings don't give a good picture of the meta, which was full of goblin, landstill, enchantress, bant, merfolk, baseruption/canadian threshold, zoo. The list was more tuned vs aggro/tribal, but I didn't face one. That said, the meta could have been fair good for md counterbalance, and I think it would have improved some MU's and especially ant/reanimator, which I faced 3 times in 8 rounds.
It's long I don't feel the lack of wog, because spell snare keeps me alive just till I reach 4/5 lands, and that's were you can play every combination of EE/disk/stp/path/humility+elspeth to control the board no matter what the opponent plays. Basicallly with elspeth out you don't care to clear the board, but just to leave one single attacker on the other side of the field (without flying or trample :laugh: ). Plus EE is not only good vs creatures, but means another 3 answers to opposing counterbalances. And it diversifies the calls of pithing needle: you needle my ee? i have disk. You needle disk? you don't needle elspeth. You needle elspeth? Well, you are god! And I have dismantling blow! :) I won a match by eot tutoring snare to destroy double needle on elspeth and mishra, and that was pretty satisfying.
To sum up:
-yes, md counterbalance would've been a good choice. I'll maybe consider the switch for the championship's final (the tournament with the top24 players of the league), due to the fact that I'm expecting lots of combo-decks... or maybe I'll just play ant myself, lol! :cool:
-4th brainstorm and 4th top are really needed, or at least the 4th top really is. I've almost never seen brainstorm (3 or 4 in all the tournament!), but so many times I had a blind counterbalance out and flipped only lands, and wished I had another top, even if I sided in enlightenend tutor (MVP, it would be really great in your list). 4 is the right number to play, but then I don't know what to cut: not a land (24 has proven to be really solid, especially with all the denial I saw, and the manabase was tuned correctly), not a blue card (I don't want to go under 18), not the 3rd elspeth, nor the 2nd humility, nor disk, not a stp effects... Well, I'll think more on this and appreciate suggestions.
-during ant/reanimator MU, I wished I had some extirpate ready-to-hand...
I don't believe that is because of your personal pairings, but because it is great against almost every deck in the format. There are only a select few matchups where it isn't good, and those alone aren't worth running a card you keep bringing in against every matchup.Quote:
Given my pairings, I think MD counterbalance would have helped much, in fact I brought it in almost every round
CounterTop is great against Zoo and Goyf Sligh aggro, fair against Merfolk when they don't have Vial in play, and lackluster vs Goblins. The few decks out there that run a large concentration of 3cc spells make it a little mediocre, and I only run 7 4cc spells to answer the bigger cc decks like Stax, it's somewhat slow against Ichorid, but overall, it's just a great answer to the entire metagame as a whole. The fact that it drastically improves some seriously bad matchups like Burn and Aggro Loam should be reason enough to run it in the maindeck.
I suppose because of everything else you run, it works for you to not run it, but I just find it to be the most effecient means of mass creature removal available. For that reason, I would not want to go without it. Against some things, EE simply doesn't answer, and against others, Nevinyrral's Disk is rather slow. Both of them destroy my own Counterbalances, which is the primary reason why I don't like those cards with maindeck Counterbalance (but of course, you weren't running maindeck Counterbalance, so that changes the fundamentals a bit).Quote:
It's long I don't feel the lack of wog
4 Top should be a mandatory spell for every single Landstill list, regardless of the build. It's seriously the best spell in the deck.Quote:
4th brainstorm and 4th top are really needed, or at least the 4th top really is.
You ran a 3c manabase with Ruins and Bowl. I wouldn't want to cut below 24 lands either. I run a 2c manabase without Ruins and Bowl, so 23 works out perfectly for me.Quote:
but then I don't know what to cut: not a land (24 has proven to be really solid, especially with all the denial I saw, and the manabase was tuned correctly
I notice that nobody seems to use Ravenous Trap in the sideboard, is it because we're just not that worried about graveyards anymore or is it not worth the space for the Ichorid matchup?
I'm surprised that Shackles isn't being used more as well. I have found it often to be gg against most aggro decks, its seemly great provided you have the islands for it.
It's definitely a Wishable target, imo. However, the card is pretty narrow itself, and like gustha said, with 6/8 STP effects (MD/Post-board) + Countertop with the possible addition of Medding Mage and others create plenty of problems for Ichorid players. That said, are you safe from a Cabal Therapy raping your hand? No, but no player is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimoman
I had Shackles in the SB (with ET) for a long time, and didn't do so hot with it. Little slow to get out, and Grip-able.
I changed Black to Red just some weeks ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genericcactus
And i top4ed in the first (really small) tourney (34 ppl) I partecipated.
Your list seems tough, but I think too radical.
Probably you win g1 against merfolks, zoo, creatures in generally
But probably you lose g1 in mirror matches and against WStax, having no more time to play g3.
You don't recycle nothing, no CoTW, no Ruins
Landstill is good because we have 50-50 against quite everyone, i think you are 70-30 against aggros and 30-70 against the rest.
But I like a lot your sb strategy :wink:
22 lands are too few imho, and 6 fetches are too many!!!!
Against ANT you've 9 dead cards, +3 "maybesometimesuseful" cards in mainboard
In g2, you have maximum 6 cards to side in
I disagree with running 6 blasts in a sideboard and firespout in my testing was god awefull against most of the format. In theory its good but when you actually test it, you really want better overall answers.
Also to note: Spell Pierce is THE NUTS. It needs to be tested more thoroughly. It stops EVERYTHING we fear! Snare would be the split or replacement slot probobly, though we could consider counterspell.
I think spell pierce would be a good replacement for if you run 3 negates in your SB, It's great against ichorid and storm decks that are limited by their mana resources.
the argument isnt about low mana sources. its about the utility of the spell.
spell pierce for the cost is a one mana answer to vial/ trinisphere/hymn/ and a larger variety of answers that will inevitably get u into the later game. to be short this is landstills abswe all for shenanigans.
fyi its a mainboard card and not a sideboard answer.
No. You don't get the point that i was making in my suggestion. All that I am saying is that it will work against ichorid and storm since they don't have the extra mana needed to pay for spell pierce.
I never said that it wouldn't be a good answer against any other threats, you just jumped to that conclusion.
All that I was suggesting when i mentioned negates in the sideboard was that they might not be necessary anymore since spell pierce could do their job just as well.
fyi if you've got spell pierce, and you're staring at creatures... you're still gonna be staring at creatures.
i do get ur points. all im saying is that pierce answers problem cards in the early game that our md can't normally handle specifically vial. it also handles cb which makes the midgame much easier for us as it does w snare.
Spell Pierce indeed stops the single most troublesome early game spell there is - Aether Vial. Also 1cc discard, Trinisphere, opposing top, sometimes chalice. And to the less extent - Survival, opposing Standstill, Hymn, Counterbalance, although Spell Snare is heaps better there.
Personally, most of the games I lose, are when I get overwhelmed in the first 3 turns of the game. That gives us the general deck construction idea - survive the early game and overpower opponent later with 4cc bombs. The question is, can we really afford to run a conditional early game spell? Because It's going to suck later on. Don't we already have enough non-conditional means to 'stall' untill 4cc?
So, lets consider the early game options we already run:
StP -obviously. Nobody is going to cut these
Additional spot removal in form of PtE, F/I, Smother etc. To be sure. You don't always get StP in your opener, but when you run 6+ swords, its easy.
Spell Snare: hands down the best early game counter. Stops all kinds of problematic spells, Goyf, CB, Survival, Lords of Atlantis, Confidant, Hymn, Sinkhole etc. Much like StP, still solid later on. If I'm to run Spell Pierce, it isn't in this slot. Probably in the slot of additional spot removal.
Explosives: too versatile to cut it down to such a narrow and conditional spell.
Possible earlygame S/B cards:
Pithing Needle: has a lot of uses, fixes vial problem, but overally too narrow and 'clunky'. But I'd probably rate it higher than Spell Pierce and I don't play it.
Pyroclasm: solid against swarm strategies. And really, Firespout sucks, 3cc DOES make difference. If you want to run Firespout, run Wrath instead.
So here comes the problem, not only we have to evaluate how good Spell Pierce is, we have to find a room for it in the deck. I just don't happen to have that room. At least for now I consider other spells I run better than it.
There should be 23 lands. I'll probably cut a FoF for an Academy Ruins.Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDoom
Admittedly, this deck is skewed to beat aggro, but Zoo and Merfolk are among the most played decks right now. With this build, I don't see how I lose to them. Also, Goblins is going to rise in popularity with Warren Instigator. Whether the new Goblins decks will actually be good or not is yet to be seen, but I anticipate them in higher numbers.
So, what matchups are going to be worse? Sure, the landstill mirror won't be great. However, Landstill isn't that widely played, and I'd rather make that matchup worse than continue to lose to the most played decks. Wstax barely exists at all and that deck is pretty terrible anyways. Ichorid is always bad, but Relics in the board plus EE, Humility, and Firespout should make it at least winnable. I guess the real question comes down to if this list can beat countertop. With the minimal testing I have done, I still deem that matchup to be favorable with this list. EE deals with their entire deck, Spell Snare helps a lot, FoF wins in the mid/late game, and sticking an Elspeth or Humility is an auto-win. Firespout isn't great, but the ability to bring in Pyroblasts is pretty nice.
The black splash is probably stronger in a more balanced metagame. The versatility of Vindicate is certainly useful. However, with aggro dominating the format, black just seems ineffective.
What's your red list like? How is your board strategy different than mine?
Some more points about Spell Pierce.
It only answers vial or any 1cc spell 50% if the time - only if you're on the play. If you're on the draw, they've already cast it. For the answer to Vial be any viable, it should be possible to use it after Vial hit play. The only worthy cards I can think of are Disenchant and Pithing Needle. And like I've said both are of a broad use, but a bit too narrow. Let me explain the contradiction here: what I mean, is that while they would have a target almost every game, the number of targets we'd really want to use it for is narrow. E. g. you can stop Grim lavamancer with Needle, or Pernicious Deed with Disenchant, but why wouldn't you play some better spells instead.
Based on the way we're talking about Spell Pierce and how "effective" it may be in the maindeck, why arent we talking about Disrupting Shoal instead? [/end sarcasm]
Seriously, the point of Landstill is to have an inevitably good late game by running cards that have quality late game, such as Swords to Plowshares, Spell Snare, Force of Will and EE to an extent.
This is also why we dont run cards like Force Spike... and instead, run cards like Path to Exile+Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will and such.
If you truly want to answer cards like Vial, just run more EE. Really, that's all there is to it.
Dropping a preemptive EE@1 when on the play vs goblins/merfolk is almost always a good idea :)
Citrus we both know theres no way for landstill to have inevitability over the entire format. It's simply too big and the variety of decks make it litterally impossible to play the (right 75).Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
My only reasoning behind pierce is that it does everything snare does in the early game (completely freeing your mid-game to win) which is when Land still should want to be finishing games between t8-12. Pierce allows you room between t1-3 against the problematic situations that snare doesn't resolve. Its better then snare against combo, burn for the most part, vial obviously, roughly the same against loam (besides for DD) and as a general principle completely fucks opposing plains walkers ee's. etc. Now if your seeing spell stutter sprite then perhaps it's not feasible, but honestly I think it should be given a shot.
Snare is phenomenal but there are tons of problems that pierce also addresses that snare doesn't accept. I'm just asking to see if anyone has tested it and if its actually worth it. Also pierce counters stifle.
That pierce counters stifle is the main reason I'll advocate for playing pierce. Ofc pierce is only good on the play, but does not snare has the same limitations? you know I'm not fond on "modal" spells (which let the opponent a second chance), but this spell spierce is really great on most of what snare already counters, except for bob and goyf which, indeed, are fair good targets. I don't think one can substitute the other, but a split may be considered, as it would be a MD answer to decks lilke ant and ichorid, due to their lack of mana resources...Would spell pierce not have been restricted to noncreature spells, it would have been phaenomenical...
Here it is :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Genericcactus
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
3 Standstill
1 Decree of Justice
1 Wrath of God
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus (now i'm testing tormod)
1 Jace Beleren
1 Elspeth
1 Ajani Vengeant
SIDE
4 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Lightning Helix
1 Humility
1 Runed Halo
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 CoP:Red
my SB strategy is
burn
in everything except humility and seals
aggros
in humility and helixes, if r/g zoo, cop:red is welcome too
Ichorid
in everything except cop:red and seals
stax
in seals
mirror
in creatures and helixes
combos
in creatures and halo
Has i said, i prefer to play a more "balanced" list, also because agaisnt some decks, you will play g3, against others (mirror and stax) you'll barely play g2. Due to that it's extremely important to win g1 agaisnt these, while against others you can also lose g1....
the fact behind our list is probably the metagame
in last tourney (35 players), some weeks ago I met
1 bant, 2 wstax, 2 nassif-style, 2 merfolks, 1 survivalcombo
at Ovino in Milan (more than 250 players), in early september, i met
1 bant, 1 mirror, 1 aggro, 1 stax, 1 merfolk, 1 survivalcombo
As you can see, in my block there are some people playing stax.....
I think in your build gustha where you run more than 4 stp effects dropping spell snares for pierces would be worth testing. The logic of this is that pierce protects you from early game obstacles like stifle, chalice. You wouldn't really need snares since you have so many creature removals already and cb gets hit by pierce as well.
Obviously... but this is just a technicality at this point: we all know Landstill has dead cards against control and combo, and is mostly designed against Aggro or creature type decks. Against control, you will only lose against a true control deck (but those dont exist because of Aggro), and your only chance of winning against combo if you dont have CB in the maindeck is to board addition counters in. Keep in mind though, they slow down post board to keep up with your disruption, so that gives Negate and Spell Snares validity.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Then why are we not running Force Spike?Quote:
My only reasoning behind pierce is that it does everything snare does in the early game (completely freeing your mid-game to win) which is when Land still should want to be finishing games between t8-12.
Sure, but only against Ichorid, ANT and TESQuote:
Its better then snare against combo
With the rise of Zoo, Burn seems like an awfully bad choice in terms of consistency. Especially with Counterbalance in the metagame.Quote:
burn for the most part
I dont think you want to board such narrow spells (or play maindeck for that matter) against decks with AEther Vial. Like, Spell Pierce is only good against Cephalid Breakfast.... we thrash that deck regardless. Against Merfolk, we want to concentrate on the board, which means the better and more obvious solution here is to run more S2P effects.Quote:
vial obviously
They run so many lands, the point of casting such a spell against them is nullified after Turn 3.Quote:
roughly the same against loam (besides for DD)
Wouldnt Negate do the same thing? I mean, assuming if you will crash into opposing Planeswalkers, Negate would seem to be the more sensible counter to run. Against the mirror, Negate will be better. Against Monogreen Stompy, Negate will be better. Against Stax, Negate operates under Chalice for 1 and can effectively counter better a Spell Pierce can under three mana assuming they opened with a 3Sphere and they ramp tons of mana up for the first 3-4 turns. Sure, you can counter 3Spheres if you're on the play, but chances are, you will have to pull a Stax and "mull into oblivion" just to get a FoW or a Spell Pierce in your opening hand, or else Spell Pierce loses it's value.Quote:
and as a general principle completely fucks opposing plains walkers
If people cast EE against you, chances are, they casting it for Zero. If it's to wipe a Planeswalker off a board, chances are, they'll leave 2 mana open to detonate it so that they dont walk into your EEs, which they can use to activate EE and inevitable tap the two mana for your Spell Pierce. If you do get them to tap out and proceed to drop your own EE, congratz, you've spent 2 cards to get rid of 1. Negate, easily turns this into a 1 for 1.Quote:
ee's.
I did not say Spellstutter Sprite, I said Disrupting Shoal. Also, the Germans (Kimberly) have used it before in Landstill, and with success (until the printing of Goyf).Quote:
Now if your seeing spell stutter sprite then perhaps it's not feasible, but honestly I think it should be given a shot.
I dont see why you cant just board in cards that actually take care of the problems, or just learn how to play around shit.... Like, if you're scared of Vial, why cant you just play more EEs or play Vindicates/Mortify? Or better yet, you could run Annul! That counters Back to Basics, SDT, Counterbalance, AEther Vial, Chalice of the Void, Smokestacks, Powder Keg,Trinisphere, Jittes, Shackles, CoW, EE, LED, Moxes, Petals, the list goes on. Oh, and it counters Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Platings and Master of Etheriums... it tears Affinity to bits, basically.Quote:
Snare is phenomenal but there are tons of problems that pierce also addresses that snare doesn't accept. I'm just asking to see if anyone has tested it and if its actually worth it.
You can... you know, play around or bait Stifle. Or better yet... cut down on your fetchlands. Like, thankfully, magic is a game with hidden information, which means you obviously also have the option (especially in this deck) to play in a way where you can persuade your opponent that you're fucking crippled when you're perfectly fine in reality. Like, if you need to cast EE to wipe that Vial off the board, just play in a way where you're deprived of a color and just force them to Stifle your fetch and then proceed to cast and crack EE.Quote:
Also pierce counters stifle.
Honestly, I never had a problem with Stifle... mainly because I only run 4 fetchlands and 2 Dragons. Also, casting Dragon eot on their turn is brutal, it forces them to decide whether to color screw you or let you have your way.
That's what I'd do.Quote:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
4 Standstill
3 Wrath of God
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth
1 Ajani Vengeant
SIDE
4 Counterbalance
4 Meddling Mage
4 Firespout
3 Oblivion Ring
I'd rather have rebs and path to exile in the sb instead of firespout... 3 wrath seems enough...
I always thought Landstill was designed to have inevitability over the entire format, it is the reason to play the deck. I doubt there is any matchup where Landstill wants to play the aggro role, besides a control mirror maybe. I honestly can't think of any deck where Landstill doesn't have inevetiability against, but perhaps you can enlighten me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Landstill wants to play aggro against most decent combo decks. They have a better late game than you in this matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
I think you're thinking of Solidarity. Against ANT and TES, a good Landstill player will do well if he plays his counters wisely. That means knowing how far 2 soldier tokens and a Factory can go while having a gripload of counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Btw, try not to let SDT resolve post board against ANT.
Cant really decide which deck you are talking about to answer my question but I bet it plays Tarmogoyf 4 times.
This doesn't change the fact that Landstill is the aggro deck here. It's generally bad for the Landstill player to even play Standstill against ANT, as they will draw into better stuff than you in this matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Playing your counters wisely means countering as many Chants as possible, and countering any early Tops. If ANT resolves Top, you're going to lose anyway, unless you play like 3 Factories the first 3 turns and beat them hard enough so they can't shape a hand that wins through counters. This is highly unlikely though.
I've been liking Spell Pierce alot, so far I'm testing it as a replacement for Spell Snare. Its nice that it also stops an early LED, Duress, or Thoughtseize as well. It still needs more testing but so far its pretty good.
I've been liking maindeck Crucible since it has its uses in plenty of matchups but I could see the logic for it being in the sideboard.
DoJ has been a bit underwhelming lately, perhaps its just bad luck but its been too slow for what it does.
And yet another point; I'd love to fit in some maindeck Path like some others are doing so I'll do some testing and see what I can take out. I could go back down to 23 lands but that could cause some problems.
I definitely dont mind playing a Standstill against them as long as I'm not playing it over a resolved SDT. Other than that, if they shape their hand, I'll be shaping mine too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
And no, Landstill is the control deck in that match up. If I had Morphling in play on Turn 2, then yes, I would be the Aggro deck using counters to cancel interaction. But, I dont. I'm going to beat down with Factories and Soldier tokens, which means I'm playing control because the point of control is to make an attempt to force the opposing deck to interact with you, which implies countering Chant effects. If Chant resolves, you must be an awful Landstill player. If Chant doesnt resolve, then you still have game because now they're forced to interact with you still.
I know what you're trying to get at, but saying Landstill should be aggro in this match up isnt the best way to describe what you're to say.
Not always. Spell Snares cant counter any of those, so those disrupt the opponent by countering Infernal Tutors. Everything else is either wiped off the board via EE or you should saccing Wastelands to slow them down.Quote:
Playing your counters wisely means countering as many Chants as possible, and countering any early Tops.
That's a must counter, definitely.Quote:
If ANT resolves Top, you're going to lose anyway, unless you play like 3 Factories the first 3 turns and beat them hard enough so they can't shape a hand that wins through counters. This is highly unlikely though.
Well, i think its similar, just because you might attack earlier than in other MUs you are still not taking the aggro role. I think of it more as an opportunity strike (and a necessary one at that).Quote:
Jamie Wakefield:
A week or two ago I said I would explain why the French Regionals MGA decks were not really aggro decks at all.
Ghazban Ogre is Beatdown.
Sakura-Tribe Elder, Birds of Paradise and Eternal Witness are not Beatdown or even Aggro. They are Green control.
Forest go.
Forest, play a 1/1, sac him to go get another Forest, is not beatdown.
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Forest, Ghazban, Go.
Forest, Rancor, Rancor, pitch a card for Bounty, attack for nine on turn 2 is BEATDOWN.
As far as I remember the article that put up the aggro/control statement did not include combo decks. So naming a role would be really difficut.