All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

Did you completely neglect to mention umezawa's jitte? yes you identified the problem card in blighted agent but inkmorh and glistener are easily dealt with. The number of times you have a turn 2 kill on the play is extremely low...

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Unless DnT's opening is exactly Mom -> Jitte, DnT can't have a Jitte online until turn 4. Generally goes t2 SfM, t3 float it in or play a creature, t4 equip and attack. So when Infect is on the play, they get 4 turns to do whatever they want with little disruption, not 2. They don't need to win on t2 with an Elf, they can win on t4 with an Agent. Infect may not have many t2 goldfish wins, but they tend to be able to figure out a way to win by t4. When they're on the draw, Jitte is gonna come down faster, and DnT is a little less unfavored, but g2/3 most Infect players will have quite a few Naturalize or Needle effects anyway, so the easy Jitte wins are generally going to only be g1, DnT on the play, Infect has a slow hand. It's not like that never happens, like I said it's not like the matchup is unwinnable for DnT, but I've playtested this matchup with friends, playing dozens of games in a row (pretty easy because the games are fast) and DnT is absolutely unfavored.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Simply? Whatever they own. The price of cards in Legacy these days means people are normal pressed into what they have. I have a very understanding wife, so I get more freedom than most, but I would be shocked if the majority of Legacy players had more that 2 substantially different decks.

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That's a really important point. One reason I don't think it's realistic to tell people to just sack up and adapt is that it's not easy to drop everything and play something substantially different for a lot of people. (I, for one, have been building my Legacy repertoire from cards with a lot of crossover value, because though I started playing Magic in '98-'99, I didn't have a lot of the bombs that turn your piles of Empty the Warrens, Duresses, Careful Studies, Dark Rituals, Therapies, and Ichorids up to 11.)

It's probably too Herculean to try to evaluate how sea-changes impact stuff like the number of Legacy players and their satisfaction with the format, the economics of the game, and the diversity of the metagame (not to mention which of those concerns deserves the most attention), but throwing a wrench into a deck or a series of decks impacts a lot more than simply which decks serve to benefit.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

That's a really important point. One reason I don't think it's realistic to tell people to just sack up and adapt is that it's not easy to drop everything and play something substantially different for a lot of people.

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Sure, some people can't afford to adapt. And it sucks. But is it fair to ban cards to favour their tier two decks? This is just going to pass the buck onto people who get hit by the ban. Then what? Ban even more cards because they can't afford to adapt either?

@Sydney
I play RUG Lands or RG Land; with or without a black splash. I currently don't want anything banned. I am very happy with the wide range of play-styles among competitive decks.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Sure, some people can't afford to adapt. And it sucks. But is it fair to ban cards to favour their tier two decks? This is just going to pass the buck onto people who get hit by the ban. Then what? Ban even more cards because they can't afford to adapt either?

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I think this is also an important point. I don't support bans generally for this reason (I remember finishing Modern Storm around the same time every card that made the deck go 'round got banned) among others.

I feel like Wizards has made it clear that they don't prioritize banning cards in Legacy. I think that's great, and I hope they don't take the road they've chosen for Modern, which has repeatedly discouraged me from getting into the format. I can understand why they do it; it's easy to print a card that accidentally collapses a "turn-4-at-earliest" format. But Legacy's got a much more stringent threshold for a card's playability, meaning that something has to really make waves to even enter the format as a playable card.

What Wizards has also made clear is that it's still interested in manipulating the Legacy format, even if it's not particularly interested in supporting it or really taking the time to test cards for it. I'm irked that they green-lit Prelate, both Thalias, Thought-Knot Seer, and Reality Smasher (and, of course, Recruiter of the Guard; promo Imperial Recruiters remain, as of the last time I checked, cheaper than snazzy original printings). Clearly with these cards, they were either oblivious to a pretty catchable flaw in their set design (TKS, Smasher), or they were actively promoting a Legacy deck that I would argue didn't need the help (Prelate, Thalias, Recruiter). But they also printed Delver of Secrets and Past in Flames. It has cut both ways in the past.

Assuming the Legacy playability of these cards was countenanced, this is a pretty rollercoastery, slipshod method of manipulating Legacy, but I still prefer it quite a bit to bans. I'm holding out hope that they'll throw us dirty combo-players a bone, but I'm also willing to acknowledge that quick fixes and bannings have consequences that reach beyond the format to its players.

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Originally Posted by Sidneyious

I'm using simply what I own and I'm not complaining.

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False Equivalence fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

What Wizards has also made clear is that it's still interested in manipulating the Legacy format, even if it's not particularly interested in supporting it or really taking the time to test cards for it. I'm irked that they green-lit Prelate, both Thalias, Thought-Knot Seer, and Reality Smasher (and, of course, Recruiter of the Guard; promo Imperial Recruiters remain, as of the last time I checked, cheaper than snazzy original printings). Clearly with these cards, they were either oblivious to a pretty catchable flaw in their set design (TKS, Smasher), or they were actively promoting a Legacy deck that I would argue didn't need the help (Prelate, Thalias, Recruiter). But they also printed Delver of Secrets and Past in Flames. It has cut both ways in the past.

Assuming the Legacy playability of these cards was countenanced, this is a pretty rollercoastery, slipshod method of manipulating Legacy, but I still prefer it quite a bit to bans. I'm holding out hope that they'll throw us dirty combo-players a bone, but I'm also willing to acknowledge that quick fixes and bannings have consequences that reach beyond the format to its players.

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I think they knew exactly what they were doing with regard to Death and Taxes - it's the best deck that requires no Reserved List cards and they're pretty clearly doing their best to support the format without killing the RL (which is totally rational from a business perspective). This could honestly be part of the reason that they haven't taken action against Miracles: other than Duals, which it runs relatively few of, the whole deck can be reprinted as needed (sideboard cards like Moat notwithstanding). EMA and Conspiracy 2 also gave us reprints of combo staples in Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Entomb, and Animate Dead, and those decks work pretty well without duals as well.

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Originally Posted by btm10

EMA and Conspiracy 2 also gave us reprints of combo staples in Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Entomb, and Animate Dead, and those decks work pretty well without duals as well.

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I Think when he said "throw us dirty combo-players a bone" he meant something that makes a combo deck actually a little bit stronger - not just easier to acquire. Legacy just wouldn't be Legacy without combo decks (which are actually well positioned), and I think a new toy is long overdue. My gut tells me Mystical Tutor is too good, but I think the meta could handle FS. And of course a new printing would also be welcome!

In other news, Infect is now DTB again. I hope we can lose the BS about Miracles having no predators // bad match-ups.

Mystical Tutor is too good, but only because it's nuts with Show and Tell or Counterbalance or both.

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

Mystical Tutor is too good, but only because it's nuts with Show and Tell or Counterbalance or both.

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Or storm. Mystical is completely fucking bonkers. Especially as long as probe is legal

Ah the days when you could crack LEDs on upkeep, Mystical, float to draw step and AdN them dead.

Now you just tutor for PIF, cast probe, break LED, cast pif and do it all again. Cars is completely retarded with probe

I would just splash white in show and tell and have a misers terminus to tutor up

Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial Seal and Demonic are too critical to be unbanned ever. They dont come with any deckbuilding restriction and wield the ability to include silver-bullets in any deck running black or blue.

I do not think it would be a MAYOR improvement for Storm in particular, but giving tutors to all sort of decks would be warping the metagame in a bad way. Mystical in particular would be abused in Miracles, S&T and Storm and I don't see a reason to do so

I've played Personal Tutor in Storm to try to do Past in Flames tricks like that. It isn't that good; you can't actually ever resolve a one-drop after turn one right now.

Your tutor is much better when it can come down end of turn and can also fetch any ritual as well as ad nauseam itself.

Yeah, well I mentioned Mystical as a card which wasn't safe to unban. FS is probably fine, and would be good for Reset Tide. I'm not sure what else could be unbanned that would help combo; unless of course Mind Twist would give Elves an extra push.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Yeah, well I mentioned Mystical as a card which wasn't safe to unban. FS is probably fine, and would be good for Reset Tide. I'm not sure what else could be unbanned that would help combo; unless of course Mind Twist would give Elves an extra push.

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Foremost the card unbanned should not create a miserable experience like creating blowouts. Thats a reason I am very sceptical about Mind Twist. It either does nothing or creates a blowout when legal in the format. Imo there is no need to risk it unnecessarily

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Foremost the card unbanned should not create a miserable experience like creating blowouts. Thats a reason I am very sceptical about Mind Twist. It either does nothing or creates a blowout when legal in the format. Imo there is no need to risk it unnecessarily

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I think blow-outs is a concern for Standard or Modern, not for Legacy. This is the format where you can play Belcher, Sneak-Show, Geddon Stax, Pox, etc.

Also, you see this as too much black & white. eg, Elves could play a Twist on turn two or three to deplete the opponent's hand and buy them time to deal with a lock piece before getting overrun. Losing your hand doesn't always equal a blowout. Especially if you've already put relevant cards onto the board.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I think blow-outs is a concern for Standard or Modern, not for Legacy. This is the format where you can play Belcher, Sneak-Show, Geddon Stax, Pox, etc.

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I think ot makes one hell of a difference if you build the whole deck around certain ways to blow your opponent out of the water or just need to slip in 4 cards in an existing shell to achieve the same without any design restictions.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think ot makes one hell of a difference if you build the whole deck around certain ways to blow your opponent out of the water or just need to slip in 4 cards in an existing shell to achieve the same without any design restictions.

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Nobodies going to build a dedicated Twist deck because it would suck. Maybe Elves and/or Tezz could slip four (or fewer) into their "existing shell" and it might help bail them out of trouble (which is the opposite of a blowout).

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think ot makes one hell of a difference if you build the whole deck around certain ways to blow your opponent out of the water ...

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*puzzled look around at the decks available in this format*