[Deck] Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

I currently run a GWr version with 2-3 Rift main, and they are very good vs weenie, goblins, etc.

I also run Burning Wish and Sensei Top which are great against mid range decks like Rock and Eva Green.

It's hard to make room for all the good cards AND the cycle cards. Right now I am 100% dependant on loam/cycle lands to make Slide work. Burning Wish obviously helps achieving that goal. I have considered Spark Spray and Renewed Faith, but they are only great in some match ups, so it's kinda hard to cut stp or something else powerful for them.

I played this list to a top 4 of a 19 person tournament last Wednesday. I went 2-1-1 in the swiss beating two Faeries decks, drawing with another, and losing to a MUC deck with counterbalance (Back to Basics destroyed me.) I beat a Landstill deck in the top 8.

4 Astral Slide
4 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Living Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Eternal Witness
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unearth
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Secluded Steppe
3 Barren Moor
1 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
SB:
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
4 Pithing Needle
4 Krosan Grip

No one plays Storm Combo where I play, so that's the reason for the lack of Chalices or Chants. I don't own a Savannah, so I was replaced by a Forest. Yes, it was bad.

I have a couple questions. I apologize in advance if these have been answered on the previous pages. Sigar could I see your list? I'm seeing a lot lists without Mox Diamond. Is it only worth playing if you're playing Chalices? The deck is very slow already, (my version at least) and mana acceleration seems like it would be very good. I don't like Wall of Roots because I would rather play Wish or Loam on turn 2, and it being Sworded when I need it would be terrible.

easyrider,

A couple of suggestions on your build.

Mana Acceleration: Mox Diamond is the best option. After that you've got Search for Tomorrow (useful because it's a t1 play in a deck that doesn't have tons) Edge of Autumn (cycles) and Sakura-Tribe Elder (makes Unearth better and chumps, but not that great unless you've got a lot of aggro). Ancient Tomb is also great, but it doesn't seem like its abusable in your build.

Wish Targets: Move a witness to the sideboard along with the Volrath's Stronghold, possibly a Wasteland as well. The Hierarch should probably be a Finks given how much better it works with Unearth.

One final note, 4x deed and 4x mox hate each other.

morgan_coke: Nice work on this, I love Slide and was sad to see it be rotated out of Extended, but now I can work on this version :D

I'm just confused why the first post references Kokusho but the list itself contains 3 x Knight of the Reliq. Which creature are you testing?

Also Wasteland is mentioned though it is absent from the list as well.

thanks fiend, i think the first post is fixed now. wasteland is in the list as a singleton under "removal". its in removal instead of disruption because it's really just there to take out problematic ability lands, rather than destroying somebody's manabase.

I think you guys should test out Tilling Treefolk. It does well, and lets you keep your draws as opposed to dredging loam every time. It opens up options, and that's good in a deck that's as difficult to play well as Slide is.

I also recommend approaching this list like a stompy build. 2-mana lands are good at letting you power out your slide, and even more so, the road less travelled with Slide, Trinisphere. Trinisphere is very much what slide may be missing. Fast decks beat slide before it gets up and going. However, paired with Moxen (Diamonds), you can drop out a trinisphere turn one and not be hurt. It allows you to get to the part of the game where your list shines--mid to late.

Just some ideas from my own playtesting.

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

I think you guys should test out Tilling Treefolk. It does well, and lets you keep your draws as opposed to dredging loam every time. It opens up options, and that's good in a deck that's as difficult to play well as Slide is.

---

I tested TT pretty extensively in Extended Slide and while at first I loved it, I eventually went back to LftL.

Pros of TT:
Costs 3 (less likely to be CB'd)
Has great synergy with Astral Slide
Is a dude/chump blocker

Cons of TT:
Costs 3 (LftL costs 2)
If countered/discarded, it does nothing
Their creature removal has another target
Can be removed from game easier than LftL (Swords)

In the end, TT was often countered or discarded which just made it sub-par. Or they would Swords it and then it was gone for good. People rarely bother countering LftL because you just dredge it back, and they have better things to counter. If they do great, you can just get it back next turn.

So basically LftL is great by itself, while TT is really only great when you have a Slide in play.

Tilling Treefolk gets around Extirpate and other graveyard hate (this is a big deal whether you admit it or not), chalice @ 2 (this happens fairly often to me; Dragon stompy, stax, etc.), and CB. Chalice @ 2 is how many decks play against Loam-based lists. I'm not saying play it instead of Loam, I'm saying in addition to. Also the fact that it costs 3, with 2 of the 3 being generic mana, is more synergistic with 2-mana lands that indeed let you power out a trinisphere/slide/anything else by turn 1/2, with the exception of Witness, which isn't something you want to play early anyway. It makes Heirarch a turn 2/3 drop with Mox Diamond, which is something that should be played IMO with all the land and land recursion.

I think also that people have forgotten the saga cycling lands, which go well with 2-mana lands; and I don't mean you should play all saga lands, but I think they should have a place; this also gets away from them Needling your cycling lands as you have more of a variety. It's one of the wisest decisions for your opponent to Needle cycling lands IMO.

I think more fliers should be looked into, such as Exalted, as it morphs for the cost of a cycling land and is definitely better than Loxodon. Speaking of Hierarch, I like Aven Riftwatcher over it because it can be a turn 1 blocker that gains 2 life right off the bat (That's an ancient tomb tap), and blocks well, plus the evasion of flying. You can have a Slide out before it expires with vanishing easy. And there's always witness.

Evasion is important, moat is gaining popularity again, Tombstalker is a biggy, and I think the flying will win us more games in the long run.

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Tilling Treefolk gets around Extirpate and other graveyard hate (this is a big deal whether you admit it or not)

---

Firstly, I never said gravehard hate was not a big deal. You make it sound like I'm in denial to weaken my points when I'm not. However decks that run Extirpate usually run Thoughtseize, so no card is Extirpate-proof. Also, the most common creature removal in Legacy is probably Swords, which your Treefolk dies to (Loam is Sword-proof). Treefolk costs 1 more and gets you back one less land, the latter of which I think can make a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

chalice @ 2 (this happens fairly often to me; Dragon stompy, stax, etc.), and CB. Chalice @ 2 is how many decks play against Loam-based lists.

---

As morgan_coke states, this deck isn't afraid of Chalice @ 2, we even play Chalice ourselves. This is one slim point for TT however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

It makes Heirarch a turn 2/3 drop with Mox Diamond, which is something that should be played IMO with all the land and land recursion.

---

Are you saying Tilling Treefolk makes Heirarch a turn 2/3 drop? Please explain. If you are saying TT offsets the fact Mox Diamond requires you to pitch a land, then yes I agree, but Loam does the same.

Maybe you are right tho and something else could be cut, to make a Loam/Treefolk 3/2 mix or something, I don't know the deck structure well enough to know what could be cut.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

I think more fliers should be looked into, such as Exalted, as it morphs for the cost of a cycling land and is definitely better than Loxodon.

---

Goblins can kill you on turn 3/4, Naya Burn / Burn turn four as well. If you are on the draw, Exalted isn't going to save you. You'll die before you flip her and get the life back. The Extended Slide decks didn't even run Angel in the end, and you have much faster decks to race in Legacy. No-ones saying shes not good, shes great, but Hierarch gives you instant life and a big body straight away.

Tilling Treefolk doesn't compete with Life from the Loam. They're entirely different cards. Tilling Treefolk's real competitors are Cartographer and Hag Hedge-Mage as backups to Eternal Witness.

Flying is significantly less important in Legacy for small creatures. Trygon Predator, Tombstalker, and Mystic Enforcer are the only creatures with flying that see significant play in the format right now. Riftwatcher stalls Predator and only chumps the other two while otherwise being much, much smaller.

Exalted Angel is cute, and I really, really wanted it to be good. But it's not, even with the speed boost from Mox and Tomb. "dies to everything" is a good argument against a creature only when it needs to stay in play for multiple turns to be effective or consumes significant resources to cast it. Both of those statements apply to Angel, and it does suffer from "dies to everything" disease.

Running 3Sphere instead of Chalice is a very interesting idea and one that I will be looking into shortly.

I haven't updated this in forever, and the M10 changes just announced at first glance seem like a big kick in the nutz to this deck. Also, the recent blocks, despite including cycling cards, haven't had a lot to offer this particular version of Slide.

First I'll cover the M10 changes.

Combat damage doesn't use the stack. This is actually a much smaller deal than it first appears to be. Tarmogoyf is the dominant creature in Legacy. Tarmogoyf is bigger than all of your guys except Knight. Knight doesn't need Slide to survive combat with 'Goyf. Hierarch and Witness aren't going to kill 'Goyf whether they deal damage before they Slide out or not. The only times I've really found the stack damage then escape play to be used a lot in a single match are vs. tribal decks like Goblins and Merfolk. In other words, this is a negative in Tribal matchups, and generally neutral in most others.

Mana Burn is gone. This is universally a positive, as Ancient Tomb + Loam/Witness means the deck often took a point or three of mana burn per game. Ancient Tomb now essentially reads: T: Pay 2 life. Add 2 or 1 mana to your mana pool.

Exile/RFG/Wishes. The nerfing of the Wishes powers up another card that hasn't really seen much play in Legacy, but is great for dealing with problem decks for Slide: Cranial Extraction. CE is great at taking away a combo decks' win conditions, and in Slide is often cast on T2 or T3 as the second or third piece of disruption, but previously, it was simply not effective as hate because a deck could simply Wish back whatever you took from them. Now, that isn't an option, as whatever card you take to Exile is now gone forever. This really improves combo and board control matchups as you can take away whatever took your opponent was planning on using to beat you with.

Secondly, new cards.

Acidic Slime. I would love this so, so much more if it only cost 2GG, but it doesn't, so we have to deal. This card is a great way eliminate both non-flying creatures and problem lands/artifacts/enchantments.

Maelstrom Pulse. A Vindicate alternate that can wipe out token swarms at the cost of hitting lands. Slightly superior to Vindicate in this deck since you can still hit problem lands with Wasteland/Loam action.

That's pretty much it for cards for Slide. Wizards released a lot of cyclers in SCA, but they were almost universally limited filler, which is pretty disappointing. Hopefully future sets will bring back tourny level cycling cards.

The main changes I see this making in the deck are in the sideboard, where Extirpate/Lapse of Certainty get replaced by CE/E. Plague to both improve the combo/board control matches and help offset the greater weakness to Tribal decks.

I've been running a GWr build of Slide at my local tourneys and have been fairly successful with it. I played T2 during Onslaught block so I had the traditional R/W slide deck. Then I started playing some legacy and added green to my deck for obvious reasons (Witness, Loam). In the 4 tournaments I've played, I've t8'ed 3 times (about 25 people per tourney).

My list isn't optimal. I don't feel like investing lots of money in duals, more fetches, etc. Considering my decks is most often times the least expensive deck in the field, I've been impressed with it's performance. Here's my list:

Land: 27
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Secluded Steppe
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Nantuko Monastery
3 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Forest

Creatures: 10
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Kitchen Finks

Enchantments: 6
3 Astral Slide
3 Lightning Rift

Sorcery: 9
3 Life from the Loam
2 Wrath of God
4 Edge of Autumn

Instant: 8
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Renewed Faith

SB:
3 Boil
3 Trinisphere
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus

I also wonder why you run black? The only maindeck cards are expunge, Decree of pain, and volrath's stronghold. Black is useful for disruption, but I don't see any black disruption MD. I always liked black because of cards like unearth, skriekmaw, etc, but I couldn't justify taking out lightning rift. From my experience, it's been too useful, and more often than not it's my primary win condition.

And I completely agree on Acidic Slime. It's a great card for slide, but I do wish that it costs less. 5 CC I feel is too steep in an already slow deck. It may require more testing though.

Regardless, Slide is awesome, and the first time I played legacy, I thought I would lose every single game in 4 turns, surprisingly, I made t8. Slide really shines when people are unprepared/unknowledgable about the archtype and how to deal with it.

@Meteorain007:
Nice list. You play nearly the same deck as I do. Though I found Renewed Faith too useless. I dropped it entirely.
I play a Glittering Wish toolbox and no Knight, but Hierarch, which I found better than the Knight. But if you play Knight replace 1 Monastery with 1 Wasteland.
Add Engineered Explosives maybe. And 3 Duals ;-)

I know what you mean about renewed faith, I would drop it for more useful cards, but I feel that my deck lacks cycling cards as it is. Outside of lands, it's just renewed faith and edge of autumn. And I'd hate to have to rely on loam to get any cycling done (gy hate). It's also a nice card to pick up each turn with witness/slide.

If manage to get my hands on a wasteland, that's definitely a good 1-of to have. Same with duals, especially the plains ones, they have great synergy with flagstones.

Hierarchs are good, but I prefer knights bc they own goyf late game.

Haven't tried EE, but it seems that everyone I play uses it against me.

You guys should give Tilling Treefolk another shot. Don't you find against counterbalance.dec you lose to a 2cc on top their library? say you have astral slide out, they have CB, a single 2cc will stop you, so with TT in play, you are laughing at CB. Early game i use him to re-use two cycling lands to dig for astral slide.
Here is my list for reference.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Eternal Witness
3x Loxodon Hierarch
3x Tilling Treefolk
2x Wickerbough Elder

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Wrath of god
4x Astral Slide
3x Life from the loam
2x Engineered Explosives

3x Mox Diamond
2x Ancient Tomb
4x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x forest
2x plains
1x wasteland

4x tranquil thicket
4x secluded steppe
1x Barren Moor

Chalice is good against the format. So if you are worried about speed, between the acceleration in the deck, chalice and tarmogoyf, you should be okay to make it to mid-late game where you can take over.

Morgan_Coke,

Two points:

1) You noted that you wanted a big flyer that gave you life when it came into play. This was before you included chalice in the build, but what do you think of Baneslayer Angel? Elspeth does a better job?

2) I'm not sure that a cycled decree will be a genuine board clearer against Tribal decks in the future. Two Lords on the field will stop it's effect and they are likely to counter your attempts, or if they run 12 put another one down, to kill one before you cycle. The new lords may well be a bane rather than a boon.
Not uncounterable, but Rout as an option if my hypothesis is correct?

1) Baneslayer is just Exalted without Morph. I think Kokusho is still your best bet for this role. Which basically means there isn't a great option for this job right now.

2) Yeah, there is definitely a critical lord mass where cycled Decree starts sucking. I don't know if we've reached it yet, but it is getting closer. One bonus is that if you have a Slide out, you can RFG one lord with it when you cycle. This is also why I'm leaning towards including Engineered Plague in the board, to help combat the expected increase in number and power of Tribal decks post M10.

To give a really good answer to this question I'll need to playtest a bunch of games against tribal decks with post M10 cards and rules. Since I haven't done that yet, I can't give you a super great answer yet. Sorry.

Legacy,

TT doesn't work as a backup to LftL. It's a backup to witness. And the best backup to Witness right now is Hag Hedge-Mage.

Meteo,

That's a great anti-aggro, anti-control list. You fold to combo, but so does goblins. Nothing wrong with conceding a match that doesn't exist in your meta.

After some testing, I really think acidic slime warrants a place in this deck. Yes, it's slow, at 5 cc, but I think it's worth it. It's at the very worst a 2 for 1, and it's almost as abusable as witness with slide out. Most decks run very few lands (thresh, aggro). If it's unanswered with slide out, the game is pretty much over in 2-3 turns.

If you don't have slide out, it can trade with goyfs, mongeese, etc. I think having two of these would be great for this deck. Recurrable creeping mold on a stick is just nasty. Also MD enchantment/artifact removal, which is always a bonus.

Here was last night's rundown with my Slide variant. I found some holes, for sure.

Creatures:

4x Tarmogoyf
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Eternal Witness
2x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Terravore
1x Eternal Dragon

Spells:

4x Astral Slide
4x Cataclysm
4x Mox Diamond
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Path to Exile
3x Life from the Loam

Lands:

4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Secluded Steppe
4x Tranquil Thicket
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Plains
1x Forest
1x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Nantuko Monastery


This, as can be seen, is a tad different in that it plays Cataclysm. I had Wrath of Gods in that slot for years, but the synergy can't be ignored:

• Astral Slide (Slide something out and Cataclysm for nuts advantage)
• Tarmogoyf (fills up graveyards with all kinds of goodies, even planeswalkers)
• Terravore (if you have one creature left after a Cataclysm, Terravore is almost always bigger than their pick, and he tramples)
• Knight of the Reliquary (wonderful creature. Toolbox and basher all in one. See my lands for the "toolbox" effect. Also wonderfully large after Cataclysm)
• Path to Exile (they get a land before you Cataclysm and it is sacced)
• Path to Exile 2 (Exile their remaining creature)
• Swords to Plowshares (see above)
• Life from the Loam (Get back your goodies you just blew up)
• Note that your Mox DIamonds always stay, as well as your Astral Slides, as they are the only Artifact/Enchantment the deck has

The problems I've had over the years and my current debates:

#1. Slow. Mox Diamonds are wonderful in here, but, as always, I HATE to see them mid-game and late-game. There are games where Cataclysm does exactly what I always wanted it to and I slam in for 15 or more, but many games are pretty reliant on recursion and cycling out their attackers.
#2. Related, awkward starts. Yes, I've got Paths and Swords to play with early, but the speed is still an issue. I have yet to try Ancient Tomb.
#3. The balance between good cards and cyclers. I've run the gamut of cyclers and, at the moment, feel like there simply isn't enough cycling in here now. I've always like Edge of Autumn, but my Basic count has slowly declined over the years.
#4. To Goyf or not to Goyf. He's awesome, no doubt, but many times, I'd rather rely on Terravore or Knight (Knight for sure would go to a 4-of) to beat face. Loxodon Hierarch is no joke, either, especially with Slide out.
#5. Three or four Astral Slides. A somewhat minor issue, but relevant nonetheless. With the amount of cycling cards slowly declining, 4 Astral Slides have seemed a bit much. But, as any fan of this deck knows, Astral Slide is a very strong card when out.



Anyway, for time sake, I'll say that I did well against a mono-blue faerie deck. I had an early Slide, he Force of Will-ed my next turn Cataclysm, but I played another one next turn to have a mighty fat Goyf and cycled-out Knight. I don't think he knew what to counter.

I got raped by stupid burn. Bolts, Chain Lightnings, Rift Bolts, etc. etc. That's to be expected, I guess, and that's surely not a common deck in my meta.

WGr Zoo. I totally owned. No counterspells and the ding-dong didn't side any Grips or Graveyard hate, so it turned out to be a pretty ideal match. If he went more burn-heavy, I would have felt it more, I think.


The other decks in my meta are lame, so just know that I did ok against them, besides the above-mentioned issues.

The biggest problem I have right now with slide is speed as well. Mox diamonds are great, except for late game, and can be the necessary boost that it needs. I don't have any moxes so I just play Edge of Autumn w/ Flagstones, and they seem to work out decently. I've liked the play on turn 2. Edge also cycles, which helps, and has pretty good synergy with Cataclysm.

Cataclysm always seems like such a powerful card, but I never thought of it in a slide deck. Slide is very many hungry so I always assumed that it would ruin any slide deck. I guess having moxes and loams help recover.

I run 3 slides, fo sho, 4 seems like too many, and unless you have a ton of land out to drop a slide and a creature and still have 1-2 left over to cycle, then having extras isn't really worth it. With loam engine going, you won't really ever need more than 1 in play. That being said, I also play 3 rifts in my deck, so I have a total of 6 enchantments that I don't want cluttering up my hand. Since you don't run red, maybe 4 slides is ok.

I've don't run tarmogoyf in my build (bc I don't own them), but I'd think that he would be great bc it comes down turn two, as opposed to witness, knight, terravore. It's true that knight/terravore are better late game finishers, I still think that goyf is great bc it's goyf.

Either way, I'd like to make the crazy suggestion of running kitchen finks. I play him in my build, and it's just been so good. His persist does great in offsetting the loss of tempo bc the deck is inherently slow. It can buy a turn or two against really fast aggro decks, like goblins. lifegain is so underrated. I played against burn in my last tourney and it had nothing on my 3x finks and 4x renewed faith. In conjunction with Mox diamond, turn 2 finks can buy you a good turn or 2 to set up slide/wrath/cataclysm or whatever. personally, if I had goyfs, I'd play them, but I don't so I run finks and I haven't regretted it.