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Evan Erwin just officially spoiled this card in the Magic Show...I find it stupid that he didnt even mention its insane potential in Eternal Formats but really tried to make a round-about case how it might-be-playable-in-Standard-maybe-I-swear-you-guise...typical I guess...
I have built 2 separate decks trying to break this card and it is crazy amounts of over hyped. It is good, but it costs to much and when it resolves generally casting Infernal Bargain or Cruel Bargain would have been just as good. Point being, all of the decks which run this card win like crazy when they work or mulligan into nothingness. From what I have seen Belcher is still the premier combo deck of choice (by most people) and there really is no reason to run one of these combo decks over a deck like that. And if there is, it will take a LOT more development. The lists are either to slow or summigan into nothing.
My other lists have been posted in the SI thread.
When you resolve Ad Nauseam, you win. You don't always win from a draw 4. Just because the decks you tested the card in were not modeled to properly use AdN, that does not mean the card is overhyped. Trying to put AdN into random existing storm combo decks is not going to work. You actually have to build the deck around the card first.Quote:
I have built 2 separate decks trying to break this card and it is crazy amounts of over hyped. It is good, but it costs to much and when it resolves generally casting Infernal Bargain or Cruel Bargain would have been just as good. Point being, all of the decks which run this card win like crazy when they work or mulligan into nothingness. From what I have seen Belcher is still the premier combo deck of choice (by most people) and there really is no reason to run one of these combo decks over a deck like that. And if there is, it will take a LOT more development. The lists are either to slow or summigan into nothing.
The card is broken. No other [legal] card in Legacy costs 3BB to draw 10-15 cards (on average).
A resolved Draw 4 with 2 spare mana is a different matter though... I'm almost tempted to start another goldfish marathon to check exactly how often that play wins in SI, but I have some exams coming up.
Fiddled around with the card for a bit on mws, and damm this card is good it will probebly get banned in no time. but for now lets have fun trying to break the card as hard as possible so wizards can do their jobs
Like many people said in the right deck its resolve and win.. no questions about that.
What i have noticed is that losing live before ad nauseam is bad since it just makes the card worse. And your already gonna lose life from this heavy tarmogoyf field. That means low on Fetchlands city's and other life losing effects
i think something along these lines will do best
// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea
// Creatures
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
2 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Diabolic Intent
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
1-2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4-6 other slots for
Tutor: Lim-Dul's Vault, Infernal Tutor
Disruption: Durress, Cabal Theraphy, Thoughtseize
Mana: Lions Eye Diamond, Cabal ritual, Mox diamond (drawing it through Ad Nauseam is rather nice since u will have exces land)
Kobolds over the artifact critters for chrome mox, and more kobolds than usual since i think we really don't need to be playing more cc cards than we need
AdN isn't even in your list...
More Kobolds than usual because you don't want to take damage? You could simply play more lands if that was actually a valid reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloot
It seems like there's potential for some interesting synergy with Glimpse of Nature and Crop Rotation -> Phyrexian Tower if the deck is running the man plan. It might be pulling the deck in too many directions though.
The problem I'm seeing with trying to break this card is that the decks it's going to revolve around are going to have the same problem as anything else in this format combo related: Chalice and Counterbalance.
How are any of these builds planning on fighting against Chalice @ 1 or 0, or an active CounterTop engine with a little bit of spare mana?
I think the deck really needs to look into putting up far more protection elements, and cut back on the man plan. Seeing as Culling requires creatures in play to sacrifice each time, and doesn't net much more mana than building up to a Thresh'd Ritual, why is it the choice people keep going for, rather than a dedicated TES/Belcher style acceleration-loaded deck?
I think if the deck had more structure towards Chrome/Diamond + Lands with the 12-14 ritual effects, you'd be able to pack in more disruption that could very well seal the game for you in the first few turns, allowing time to sculpt proper mana for the spell without risking a fizzle afterwards from dumping too much into just casting it.
I think Culling is the correct choice.
Staying in one colour is preferrable if you aren't playing Spirit Guides (ugly when flipped over. Culling + Creatures combines reasonable mana at a low CMC)
Since Ad Nauseam wants mana and tutors, Diabolic Intent is also quite attractive.
since when do lands up the storm count? not to mention they help u cast intent culling and theraphy if u play them keeping the cc down even moreQuote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
oops forgot to add it after deleting the mws proxy, but i think u could safely assume it is in every list in this thread :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
@ active Chalice @ 1 or 0
yeah that stays a really bad situation, u could run a 1 of echoing truth or naturalise searchable trough the tutors in the deck...
an active counterbalance plus top shouldn´t be in play when u go off, otherwise the deck is fail i gues
I'm pretty sure his point was not that they up the storm count, but rather to save one from taking damage just to get more cards drawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloot
To assume is to make an ass out of you and me.Quote:
i think u could safely assume it is in every list in this thread :tongue:
My buddy had a pretty cool idea. I'm going to throw it out there. It lets you win via AdN with taking only 3 damage.
Take a look:
=================================================
Scouting Trek
Sorcery-1G
Invasion Common
Search your library for any number of basic land cards, reveal them, and set them aside. Shuffle your library, then put those cards on top of it in any order.
==================================================
Do that, and then either have a lightning storm in your hand or tutor for it or something.
Discard all your lands to it and burn the crap out of them. I know it says basic lands, but hey, whatever, you know? This was also a thought of ours with Countryside Crusher, although does Countryside Crusher keep repeating it until it doesn't reveal a land, or does it do it just one more time? Anyway, get a crusher and a terravore in play and it's teh nutz.
Just another way of looking at it.
there are some kobold decks that run chalice of the void and set it at 0.
they run also multani's presence, so they can draw a lot and achieve storm.
I don't like multani's presence in the main deck, but maybe it's ok in the side if our opponent plays it at zero. it will be interesting to see his face when he understands that we profit of his cards to combo.
oh, and I would always play glimpse of nature. I consider ad nauseam only a second way to win, since glimpse is very easy to counter with counterbalance or chalice.
Not for hijacking the thread, because Ad Nauseam is a pretty good card overall.
Not after having resolved Ad Nauseam this is a problem, but before:
Haven't you got even bigger problems with Counterbalance? Your avg. cmc is under 1 which means that you play a lot of 0cc, a lot of 1cc and some 2cc cards, which will most likely be hit by Counterbalance.
Has anyone played some serious games against Counterbalance Threshold?