[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

Hmm, I see. Odd, I would have thought the opposite, i.e. that your Elves and Goyfs could match a horde of Goblins or Merfolk, but had problem against big fliers/tramplers or utility guys (Confidant, Sower, turn 2-3 Stalker).

Though if you can regularly make 8-12 mana (or even 24!) with your Priests, I wonder why you wouldn't just fetch Unyaro Bees* and smash face. I only played your list for a dozen games or so a month ago, but I remember that having enough Elves to make 10 mana on the board meant I wasn't afraid of opposing Tarmogoyfs and vice-versa. And obviously mana-intensive tutor targets like we're discussing are useless against the turn 2-3 kills that you got from Ichorid or Affinity.

*Not an actual suggestion, although it would be cool as hell.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Hmm, I see. Odd, I would have thought the opposite, i.e. that your Elves and Goyfs could match a horde of Goblins or Merfolk, but had problem against big fliers/tramplers or utility guys (Confidant, Sower, turn 2-3 Stalker).

Though if you can regularly make 8-12 mana (or even 24!) with your Priests, I wonder why you wouldn't just fetch Unyaro Bees* and smash face. I only played your list for a dozen games or so a month ago, but I remember that having enough Elves to make 10 mana on the board meant I wasn't afraid of opposing Tarmogoyfs and vice-versa. And obviously mana-intensive tutor targets like we're discussing are useless against the turn 2-3 kills that you got from Ichorid or Affinity.

*Not an actual suggestion, although it would be cool as hell.

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I forgot to mention fliers. Those are also a problem, but usually only when in multiples. If I'm facing a single flier, then odds are I can race it, or it will have to play D because I have too many creatures. It's rare that other decks can race this, so that's an advantage. The problem with swarms is that your creatures get significantly weaker as a group when more die, because the tribe is built on numbers. Ganging up on creatures is fine, but when a Goblin army attacks and I'm left with next to nothing it's rough. That's partially what Tarmogoyf is there for, but that doesn't exactly solve the issue of killing creatures.

So far, I have found that tribal decks are good mathcup. Goblin is a bit harder than merfolk but is still decent. Here sylvan messenger is way better than tarmogoyf.
The problems of this deck are decks that plays blast+goyf such as goyf sligh or tempo threh splash red. Here tarmogoyf is better than messenger cause you'll never have engouh mana to cast it (killing your small guy with fire/ice and such is so easy or grim lavamancer).
I now think tarmogoyf is not needed, I have been testing it and the deck loses a lot of power. What's up with everybody playing elvish spirit guide ?
This card is CD it's really bad just play more quirion ranger or even boreal druid. I am now playing 10 one mana elves and 4 quirion ranger with 16 lands.
It has been fine for me.

I've been pretty dissatisfied with Sylvan Messenger myself, so I'm glad to see people taking it out.

I do like Natural Order in the deck as well since it seems like a natural (no pun intended) fit for it. My only issue is that since the deck is essentially mono green, there's little way to protect it (too bad something like Boseiju isn't more viable). The nice thing though is that the deck isn't based around NO/Progenitus, rather the combo compliments the deck.

Adrieng: In regards to ESG, I think if you're playing the NO/Progenitus combo, it's definitely needed. You can accelerate out to Progenitus just so much faster with it.

Esper3k :

I am obviously playing 4 natural order. (I am the first who proposed it.)
The question is how does elvish guide accelerate more than a one cc elf (such as more quirion, or boreal druid) ?
- Guide is Card Disadvantage you are maybe going to play a turn one priest
but if you don't have an elf do go with it, it sucks. Or even worse if your priest is killed, you have made a two for one.
On the contrary turn one mana elf, turn two priest is much better, no card disadvantage much better synergy with the whole deck.

I really don't see how it accelerates the deck, maybe you can go turn two order. But if it gets countered, this time you have made a three for one ...

Spirit guide is pretty great, It does get turn 2 order reletively frequently and makes people who play daze really sad.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

Esper3k :

I am obviously playing 4 natural order. (I am the first who proposed it.)
The question is how does elvish guide accelerate more than a one cc elf (such as more quirion, or boreal druid) ?
- Guide is Card Disadvantage you are maybe going to play a turn one priest
but if you don't have an elf do go with it, it sucks. Or even worse if your priest is killed, you have made a two for one.
On the contrary turn one mana elf, turn two priest is much better, no card disadvantage much better synergy with the whole deck.

I really don't see how it accelerates the deck, maybe you can go turn two order. But if it gets countered, this time you have made a three for one ...

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The T2 Order is pretty much what ESG is about. You can easily go T1: Forest, Mana Elf. T2: Land, pitch ESG, Natural Order.

As TheBirdMan also stated, it's great protection against Daze as well.

The deck is not belcher, you don't want to go all in with a turn two order.
And how does mana elves don't make daze useless ?
You still have to wait one turn. But, you have an elf in play that makes mana EACH TURN and can swing.
If you are going to play elvish spirit guide, and no messenger, I would even prefer playing chrome mox.

If you see they are playing blue you arent going to play turn 2 order, if they arent, you win. the deck already runs 7 mana elves plus priest of titania for accell , esg is just a nice compliment. Also, I usually play my esg's as 3/3 forest walkers later on which are nice.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

The deck is not belcher, you don't want to go all in with a turn two order.
And how does mana elves don't make daze useless ?
You still have to wait one turn. But, you have an elf in play that makes mana EACH TURN and can swing.
If you are going to play elvish spirit guide, and no messenger, I would even prefer playing chrome mox.

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Against a deck with no countermagic, sure I'd go all in on a T2 Progenitus. He's going to win you the game in 2 turns if they don't find an answer.

If you have mana open, noone's going to play Daze on you.

Say you kept a hand with Llanowar Elf, Forest, Priest, ESG (only 1 land in the hand).

You can safely T2 the Priest now against Daze because of the ESG. You wouldn't be able to do that if the ESG was another Llanowar/Fyndhorn. This puts you back a turn casting the Priest as T2, you pretty much have to waste your time dropping another 1 mana elf.

If your mana elves gets killed which you have (9+4). I have (12+4).
You will not resolve natural order with no creature in play, I will (or you will but much later).
On the contrary, one turn of difference (turn 3 instead of turn 2) is not really a concern, but against aggro loam.
Against goblin, their WW will be more devastating. You want to have at least two elves before going for order.

Esper3k :

but if your mana elves is a quirion ranger which I play 4, you are going to play quirion ranger+priest on turn two and being daze proof.
And having something like 7 mana on turn three...
Your example is a proof that mana elves are much much better....

You also have to remember in this debate that this isnt a natural order deck, it isn't a survival deck. Thats what makes it so solid, it doesnt need either of these cards to win. If you get them of course its great but at its core its just elf beat down hopefully with forestwalk.

Also quirion ranger+ imperious perfect has a lot of synergy (3 2/2 each turn)
and quirion ranger+timberwatch elf (i play them as a 4 off) is awesome.
quirion ranger+priest is also really good.
Really the first card you should play as a 4 off is ranger.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

Esper3k :

but if your mana elves is a quirion ranger which I play 4, you are going to play quirion ranger+priest on turn two and being daze proof.
And having something like 7 mana on turn three...
Your example is a proof that mana elves are much much better....

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If you had Quirion instead of ESG, true. However, if someone kills your mana elf and you have a hand with say 2 lands, ESG, Priest - you can now play Priest T2 with Daze protection, something Quirion can't do.

There's no argument that mana elves are better for later turns. ESG is purely there as an accelerant for your early game when you immediately need the mana.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

Also quirion ranger+ imperious perfect has a lot of synergy (3 2/2 each turn)
and quirion ranger+timberwatch elf (i play them as a 4 off) is awesome.
quirion ranger+priest is also really good.
Really the first card you should play as a 4 off is ranger.

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I agree Ranger is a great card - I may try it as a 4-of myself. I play in a group that has a lot of Wastelands flying around and I've found the Rangers to be amazing against that.

I'm not sold on the Timberwatches yet since they just seem a little slow to me (I'm still playing around with Mirror Entities).

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So far, I have found that tribal decks are good mathcup. Goblin is a bit harder than merfolk but is still decent. Here sylvan messenger is way better than tarmogoyf.
The problems of this deck are decks that plays blast+goyf such as goyf sligh or tempo threh splash red. Here tarmogoyf is better than messenger cause you'll never have engouh mana to cast it (killing your small guy with fire/ice and such is so easy or grim lavamancer).
I now think tarmogoyf is not needed, I have been testing it and the deck loses a lot of power. What's up with everybody playing elvish spirit guide ?
This card is CD it's really bad just play more quirion ranger or even boreal druid. I am now playing 10 one mana elves and 4 quirion ranger with 16 lands.
It has been fine for me.

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You just pointed out how Sylvan Messenger is bad in bad matchups, yet good in good matchups. That's a waste of space to me. Instead, I'd rather have something that is good in bad matchups, and not amazing, but not bad in all of the other matchups. That's what Tarmogoyf does.

Elvish Spirit Guide is rather important, at least to me it is. One of the deck's biggest strengths is its ability to rush a lot of problematic spells before the opponent can do anything about it. Speed is really important here, because once the opponent begins to stabilize, our deck gets much weaker. Being able to play Priest or Survival turn 1 rather than turn 2 is a huge advantage, as well as more consistent turn 2 Natural Orders or lords. If I'm playing against a deck without Force of Will or Daze, I'm going to do everything I can to hope for that turn 2 all-in. It either ends the game right there, or puts you way ahead. Plus, given there are so many Daze decks, it's an insane tempo boost if you're able to catch them off guard with it. Given that you play nearly 30 must-counter bomb spells, the slight card disadvantage you have in exchange for speed isn't an issue at all.

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I do like Natural Order in the deck as well since it seems like a natural (no pun intended) fit for it. My only issue is that since the deck is essentially mono green, there's little way to protect it (too bad something like Boseiju isn't more viable). The nice thing though is that the deck isn't based around NO/Progenitus, rather the combo compliments the deck.

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I personally feel that the deck almost protects the card anyway, and additional help isn't needed. Odds are you're going to have more than a single must-counter card in your hand. If that's the case, run everything else important out before Natural Order, whether it be Survival, Perfect, Champion, etc. If those are countered, it clears the way for Order to win the game. If they resolve, you're probably going to win the game anyway. Generally unless I know the opponent can't deal with it or I don't have another choice, I'll hold back on rushing out Natural Order to ensure it resolves.

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You just pointed out how Sylvan Messenger is bad in bad matchups, yet good in good matchups. That's a waste of space to me. Instead, I'd rather have something that is good in bad matchups, and not amazing, but not bad in all of the other matchups. That's what Tarmogoyf does

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I agree here, but he is so much better than goyf in others matchup.
It allowed you to combo out chaining messenger + priest (with survival) and going lethal with timberwatch. It reloads your hand and he is so much better in tribal matchups and not red threshold...
Maybe goyf could be played in the sideboard, cause I always cut messenger first when I bring new cards (as a consequence that the number of elves decreases).

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Being able to play Priest or Survival turn 1 rather than turn 2 is a huge advantage

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-I don't see how turn one survival is better than turn one elf turn two survival
I will still have one mana to discard a creature, whereas you will spend both of your turn two setting the engine with nothing on the board
My board will be much better than yours and I will be daze proof and not you (if on the draw).
- turn one priest followed by a 3cc creature does the same thing than turn one mana elves turn two 3cc creatures, but if you lose your priest you'll have make CD.
- you are still daze proof playing with mana elves, and you can sometimes make more than one mana thanks to ranger, ranger has synergy with the whole deck guide hasn't.
- In this deck guide is just a lotus petal which is bad.

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Given that you play nearly 30 must-counter bomb spells, the slight card disadvantage you have in exchange for speed isn't an issue at all.

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You don't really gain speed cause you lose a lot of synergy between the cards and lot of consistency what makes the deck win.

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I agree here, but he is so much better than goyf in others matchup.
It allowed you to combo out chaining messenger + priest (with survival) and going lethal with timberwatch. It reloads your hand and he is so much better in tribal matchups and not red threshold...
Maybe goyf could be played in the sideboard, cause I always cut messenger first when I bring new cards (as a consequence that the number of elves decreases).

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The example you're giving is rather moot, because not only could it be overkill, but also unlikely. Your scenario would involve hitting 3-4 creatures with Sylvan Messenger in order to "combo," and then still have enough mana leftover to go nuts. Given you run 16+ land, Survival, Order, Anger, Squee, and Progenitus, getting that kind of CA on Messenger is rare. Plus, if you even have that option of generating a lot of mana and casting Messenger with mana to spare, it's almost never stronger than simply getting Wren's Run Packmaster, which not only is a huge body on its own and can make more dudes, but doesn't have the potential to wiff and be a poor investment.

You're trying to argue him in favor of being good in an already good matchup. Tribal decks are not the problem here, Red Threshold (for the sake of this argument at least) is. The deck can square up with other aggro decks fine. I can't understand why you're trying to justify the slot when it's at its best when you're already in a favorable matchup. Instead, we should be focusing on doing what we can to improve the bad matchups.

Plus, I feel it really speaks something of a card when it is always the first to be removed when sideboarding. If you it as a purely game 1 card, then it's arguably the weakest card in the deck, and not worth running if it's going to be bad in all your bad matchups. To me, Tarmogoyf is the weakest slot in my deck. However, it's still strong enough to be good in every matchup.

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-I don't see how turn one survival is better than turn one elf turn two survival
I will still have one mana to discard a creature, whereas you will spend both of your turn two setting the engine with nothing on the board
My board will be much better than yours and I will be daze proof and not you (if on the draw).

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There's a huge difference here. By having two mana available when you untap rather than one with turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Survival, you're able to have both Anger and Squee by turn 3, and will be ahead to play spells on turn 3. Not to mention, if you're on the play, it would shut off an opponent from Thoughtseizing it, being open for Daze, or using Brainstorm to search for Force of Will. Take the following scenario though on this:

Turn 1: Land, ESG, Survival.
Turn 2: Land. Pitch creature for Squee, pitch Squee for Anger. (or vice versa, depending on the rest of your hand).
Turn 3: This can be variable, but at this point you'd be ahead. You will either already have haste and Squee to dump off, or if you pitch Squee first, two creatures to go find other stuff. Either way, you're in a better position as far as Survival goes than had you not played it until turn 2.

Or, we could wait:

Turn 1: Land, Elf
Turn 2: Land, Survival. Pitch creature for Anger/Squee
Turn 3: At this point, it's possible you can play a land and be up a single mana. However, that's almost negated because you'd need to use an additional mana to get Anger/Squee on your own turn.


However, the entire argument is completely irrelevant, because for some reason you're under the impression we are bad players running these out against Daze decks. Do you honestly believe people are that bad at Magic? What kind of Survival player is just going to go all-in turn 1 against a deck packing Daze? Obviously this isn't going to happen with someone with half a brain. Anyway, this isn't something you're going to go for every game, even if you have the option. It's dependant on what else is in your hand, what options you have, etc. Sometimes, the extra mana you get from the turn 1 Elf will matter, sometimes it won't. Also, please, please do not argue against ESG in terms of Daze, because it was added to fit against Daze in the first place. Trying to make it sound like it is bad against it doesn't make any sense.

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In this deck guide is just a lotus petal which is bad.

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False. Guide is not a Lotus Petal: it is an elf and will take all the buffs from Priest and lords, a 2/2 body, a creature to pitch to Survival, a creature to sacrifice to Natural Order, and 3cc to get around Counterbalance in a pinch. It happens to be a lot more than an effective accelerant.

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You don't really gain speed cause you lose a lot of synergy between the cards and lot of consistency what makes the deck win.

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Don't gain speed? Are you aware of the difference between a Priest of Titania that can tap on turn 2 as opposed to turn 3? Another scenario example:

I just quickly took the deck out and shuffled until I hit a hand with ESG and Priest.

Hand:
Forest
Forest
ESG
Priest of Titania
Llanowar Elves
Imperious Perfect
Wren's Run Vanquisher

Turn 1: Land, ESG, Priest.
Turn 2: (Drew land) Land, Llanowar Elves, , tap Priest for GG and land, Imperious Perfect.
Turn 3: (Drew Imperious Perfect). Land, tap Priest for GGG and two lands, Wren's Run Vanquisher, Imperious Perfect.

The fact that Priest was able to tap a whole turn earlier sped the deck up a lot. Now, lets assume that ESG is just another mana elf, but all the same draws.

Turn 1: Land, Elf.
Turn 2: Land. Do you want to play Priest + Elf, Perfect, or Vanquisher + Elf? Regardless on how you look at it, you will be behind in both damage and mana.

That's just a single example, but turn 1 Priest of Titania is by far the most broken play in this deck. I just can't possibly comprehend your arguments about "losing synergy." Where exactly is synergy lost here?

That is a giant list of truth bombs.